patrick.net

indigenous says

To suggest he intended to free the slaves as anything other than an afterthought is beyond specious.

HE wanted to preserve the Union at all costs, even if it meant keeping Slavery, at least until the Middle of the war when he realized there was no going back. What the public felt, by giving the most votes to the most anti-Slavery candidate in spite of and probably because of Southern Attitude Problems, was something else.

One myth of the Civil War was the level of support the South had in the foothills and mountains of Appalachia, where they were largely pro-Union. A century of Southern Propaganda has made the great-grandsons of a population that was very Union sympathetic and despised by the Lowland Planters into Confederate Bumper Sticker owners.

thunderlips11 says

HE wanted to preserve the Union at all costs, even if it meant keeping Slavery

Agreed, and he was no better than any other asshole that wanted power and ideology IOW one of the worst fucks in the White House ever.

It should be noted that the South had already seceded before Lincoln arrived at the White House for the first time or took the Oath of Office.

But he made it clear what is intention was, they seceded after his election.

He was an asshole.

indigenous says

But he made it clear what is intention was, they seceded after his election.

huh? You said he didn't want to abolish slavery. The tariff nonsense has been pretty well debunked. So what are these intentions that he made clear that caused secession?

Centralized govt and bank and an intent to increase the tariff

indigenous says

Centralized govt and bank and an intent to increase the tariff

Stop it--you're killing me. They seceded out of the union because Lincoln was likely to raise the tariffs? You're kidding, right? What does centralized government even mean? And what does Lincoln getting elected have to do with it?

tatupu70 says

What does centralized government even mean?

Sactly, that is your problem.

also he intended to increase mercantilism.

indigenous says

Sactly, that is your problem.

also he intended to increase mercantilism.

I've got news for you. States don't secede over intent.

Please explain how government became more centralized in the time between Lincoln's election and the secession. What exactly occurred to cause the South to leave the Union.

tatupu70 says

What exactly occurred to cause the South to leave the Union.

Read the thread

indigenous says

Read the thread

Sorry, I wasn't clear. Let me rephrase.

Now that the tariff nonsense has been thoroughly debunked here, and given that some of the Southern states seceded before Lincoln even took office--what do YOU think caused the Civil War?

tatupu70 says

what do YOU think caused the Civil War?

A seismic fault between Hamiltonian Centralized government and the Republic defined in the Constitution. A seismic fault between an agrarian culture and a manufacturing culture.

indigenous says

A seismic fault between Hamiltonian Centralized government and the Republic defined in the Constitution. A seismic fault between an agrarian culture and a manufacturing culture.

It was rich fuckers who wanted to own other people.

Or is that too hifalutin? Not plain-spoken and direct, like, say "seismic fault between Hamiltonian Centralized [sic] government and the Republic [sic] defined in the Constitution", plus using words like "culture".

HydroCabron says

It was rich fuckers who wanted to own other people.

Cept the rich fuck was Lincoln

bob2356 says

In 1790 slavery was legal in all states. So the slave states had 18% slave to overall population ration. IN 1860 the slave states had 45% slave to overall population. Nothing dishonest about comparing slave states to slave states. At least no more dishonest than comparing to states that didn't exist.

LOL. That statement only proves your own dishonesty.

Comparing ratios across the entire US was the honest approach. New states west of the Appalachians were largely extensions of the original 13, and often initially settled by population in the original 13 immediately to its east. Transportation was expensive back then. The population in the immediate neighboring state to the east had significant logistical advantage.

bob2356 says

North Carolina legislature made the willful killing of a slave murder,

Exactly! And some slave masters were hanged after such murder.

bob2356 says

Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia A runaway slave refusing to surrender could be killed without penalty

Just like the Union Army would execute deserters every day as the first order of business in the morning, while supposedly trying to fight a war to end slavery. LOL.

thunderlips11 says

The Tariff at the time of secession was one of the lowest in the Early Republic's history,

Just like slavery was still legal in the US at the time of the secession. What exactly is your point? South Carolina legislature decided to secede because Lincoln's party was known for advocating raising tariffs and abolitionist sympathy, the latter of which translated to financing terrorist mass murderers like John Brown. The secession was not in reaction what was done under Buchanan administration, but what they expected to happen under Lincoln administration . . . a president elected by a small minority of votes cast because the Democrat votes were split among three candidates!

Reality says

Just like slavery was still legal in the US at the time of the secession. What exactly is your point? South Carolina legislature decided to secede because Lincoln's party was known for advocating raising tariffs and abolitionist sympathy, the latter of which translated to financing terrorist mass murderers like John Brown. The secession was not in reaction what was done under Buchanan administration, but what they expected to happen under Lincoln administration . . . a president elected by a small minority of votes cast because the Democrat votes were split among three candidates!

Rubbish. The only reason the Morrill Tariff passed in 1861 was the South Seceded. They knew it had no chance of passage if they had stayed in the Union.

The Southern Constitution is the Revealed Truth of the matter. The CSA Constitution:

* Did not prohibit Tariffs in the CSA Constitution, only added the caveat that they had to be "Flat" without preference for industries.
* Did prohibit Emancipation: the CSA was forbidden in their Constitution from both ending slavery and prohibiting it's extension to new areas.

Doesn't sound like a State that wanted to Free Trade and was getting ready to ditch Slavery.

Reality says

bob2356 says

In 1790 slavery was legal in all states. So the slave states had 18% slave to overall population ration. IN 1860 the slave states had 45% slave to overall population. Nothing dishonest about comparing slave states to slave states. At least no more dishonest than comparing to states that didn't exist.

LOL. That statement only proves your own dishonesty.

Only in your warped mind johnny reb. For reasonable people it's not.

Reality says

bob2356 says

Delaware, Maryland, North Carolina, and Virginia A runaway slave refusing to surrender could be killed without penalty

Just like the Union Army would execute deserters every day as the first order of business in the morning, while supposedly trying to fight a war to end slavery. LOL.

You are starting to bring stupid to an art form.

Reality says

South Carolina legislature decided to secede because Lincoln's party was known for advocating raising tariffs

Ditto.

bob2356 says

Ditto.

I read the same, Lincoln made his platform known for 30 years.

bob2356 says

For reasonable people it's not.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/09/04/abraham_lincoln_the_president_used_this_map_to_see_where_slavery_was_strongest.html

Bellingham Bill says

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/09/04/abraham_lincoln_the_president_used_this_map_to_see_where_slavery_was_strongest.html

Wow, it's amazing that a system in decline, on the verge of being dropped, that Slavery spread fast and firmly along the Mississippi from it's home in the Old South.

thunderlips11 says

Wow, it's amazing that a system in decline, on the verge of being dropped, that Slavery spread fast and firmly along the Mississippi from it's home in the Old South.

Christ, look at east texas, kentucky, lousiana, and the western half of tennessee. I never knew there was anywhere near that much slavery there. I always thought slavery was virginia to mississippi. That's what reality is calling a fricking decline? WTF? He should change to unreality.

I always thought WWII was silly for this same reason. Hitler had ceased attacking France, and the SS was winding down the extermination camps - Treblinka effectively ceased operation in late 1943, and the reception area at Chelmno was dismantled in 1942. Clearly Nazism was declining on its own. Similarly with the Japanese: there were no substantial attacks on American soil after December of 1941.

All in all, our actions against the Axis were unprovoked aggression, borne of a Hamiltonian conception of centralized government and driven by a rapacious central bank.

In the same vein, abortion rates are down dramatically over the past 30 years, indicating laws against it to be merely a power-grab of do-gooders aiming to enhance their own careers by stifling the Noble Cause.

HydroCabron says

All in all, our actions against the Axis were unprovoked aggression, borne of a Hamiltonian conception of centralized government.

Pinche Cabron the mutt, actually the centralization part is still going today. Thanks un American Asshole Abe.

No matter how you want to dice it technology has and will replace slavery, drudgery, dangerous work. I would think farming has or will completely change through robotic technology.