patrick.net

Excellent. For all those free market whiners, we the consumers don't really have a choice in this anyway because these trans-fats are in everything.

The free market has failed to produce a healthy food supply. Food is infrastructure, and the free market does not do infrastructure well.

Dan8267 says

The free market...

would not have subsidized corn, and thus corn products including (hydrogenated) corn oil. You have written elsewhere, very persuasively, that our form of capitalism tends systematically to produce distortions including subsidies and even public discourse. For example, Wikipedia gets distorted by PR, discussion of climate change gets distorted by the Koch brothers, etc. A theoretically efficient free market requires "perfect information," but businesses that sell inferior products spend instead on advertising and lobbying, with the result that people buy things no rational person would buy otherwise (e.g. soda with subsidized corn syrup that makes them obese and diabetic so they demand subsidized medical insurance, like the old lady who swallowed a fly). Unfortunately, these distortions tend to succeed financially, and thus perpetuate themselves; a free market in goods becomes as difficult to maintain as a free flow of ideas.

Dan8267 says

because these trans-fats are in everythin

They are pretty much non-existent in non-processed foods, you know "real" food. For processed foods you avoid anything hydrogenated oils. No issue here. Labeling is far more important than the current sentiment. People can buy cigarettes every day, so why should they not be able to buy trans-fats if labeled as such (maybe even with a warning sticker). Funny that you mention the free market, dissenters from the long-held and promoted "a couple of trans-fats or carbs are better than loads of fat" mantra have been silenced throughout the years while crap like trans-fats were promoted as safe or even healthy by governments. The most important aspects are information and choice, not government regulations.

http://www.biznews.com/low-carb-healthy-fat-science/2015/06/02/tim-noakes-will-the-nutrition-inquisition-finally-silence-him/

Dan8267 says

Excellent. For all those free market whiners, we the consumers don't really have a choice in this anyway because these trans-fats are in everything.

The free market has failed to produce a healthy food supply. Food is infrastructure, and the free market does not do infrastructure well.

Thank You FDA. I'm all for healthy eating. Sadly, the free market did not work here, because free choice by the consumer dictated tasty crap be eaten. Americans pursue immediate gratification at the expense of long term health. I was at Costco once where I sampled some delicious desert or something. I picked up the package to check the ingredients, much to the annoyance of the sales lady. She said "Everyone checks the ingredients. It's a comfort food" I walked away. I see no comfort in heart attacks.
Is soda next?

mell says

The most important aspects are information and choice, not government regulations.

Therein lies the problem. How do you ensure correct information flow when there is enormous incentive for companies to restrict information flow?

tatupu70 says

mell says

The most important aspects are information and choice, not government regulations.

Therein lies the problem. How do you ensure correct information flow when there is enormous incentives for companies to restrict information flow?

Only anarchists are advocating for no laws or regulations. Libertarians are advocating for keeping them simple and balanced. Not telling somebody what's in the good you sell (providing it may have negative implications) is fraud, similar to selling somebody a (non-disclosed) defective vehicle or junk securities as safe investments. Fraud and non-disclosure are very simple concepts that everybody can understand, no need for deceiving law-lingo. In other threads when the argument was about labeling of GMOs GMO-friendly folks came up with the additional cost of disclosing one more word (or a couple) on the already existing label. Science is a moving target and when in doubt labeling/information is always better than outlawing or allowing non-disclosure. And outlawing is certainly much more costly for the affected companies than amending their labels. I'm not crying over the ban of trans-fats, but not every choice is the fault of the free-market, esp. since certain forms of ingredients have been actively subsidized by the government (e.g. corn/HFCS).

Curious, im curious as to why you used the word "healthy" here

healthy organic peanut butter

Dan, im curious as to why you used the term "free market" here

The free market has failed to produce a healthy food supply.

-----------

I'm not so certain that there is anything all that healthy about any peanut butter, although i guess you could say that all natural peanut butter with no additives is less unhealthy then the usual Jif or Skippy

As for the "free market" and our food supply, i'm not sure i've ever witnessed Dan being so far off base. The food supply as we know it is very heavily regulated and subsidized by the government, not to mention, most all of your (everyones) misinformation wrt food, comes from the government.

The only reason that there is a small niche marketplace that allows us to eat healthy foods, is because of the last bastion of a "free market" where informed consumers can meet their demands for healthy foods. If it were up to the government to make our food choices for us, we'd all be dying or dead and begging for even more "health care" as a result of malnutrition.

Humans knew what to eat wrt to a healthy diet long before there was any government to make them sick from misinformation and malnutrition

People in 3rd world countries subsisting on barely potable water and mud paddies, are less unhealthy then your typical American Statist, bloviating conventional wisdoms, following the governments food pyramid, eating three-five meals per day in between driving their car to an air conditioned building to pay so they can "walk" on a treadmill for their "exercise".

Its no wonder you idiots demand i pay some fuckwad corporation all my disposable income so that you can be top hypochondriac and stuff your fat stupid face with dangerous ineffective drugs that oft underperform placebos. DIE

This will kill Wholefools bottom line.

The meat packing and fish packing (is that a phrase?) industry has fought food labelling tooth and nail as well.

Every investigation ever done on fish shows that it is labelled incorrectly about 60% of the time, both in groceries and in restaurants. Usually you're getting junk fish like Tilapia instead of Cod or Sole - but paying the higher price, of course.

"Cage Free" means the chickens are kept in one huge barn with about a millimeter of space between them. Cages are actually better.

"Vegetarian Fed" means the cows confined nose to nose and fed Soy and Corn in a feedlot.

mell says

Only anarchists are advocating for no laws or regulations

Obviously. I'm not implying that you are for no laws. I'm saying that it's impossible to get correct information in a free market when corporations have every incentive to hide and deceive.

mell says

Not telling somebody what's in the good you sell (providing it may have negative implications) is fraud, similar to selling somebody a (non-disclosed) defective vehicle or junk securities as safe investments

But that's not what we're talking about here. We're talking about determining the risk of additives in food. Risks that may only manifest themselves after prolonged exposure or higher doses. How is this information going to be disseminated so consumers can make the right choices?

mell says

They are pretty much non-existent in non-processed foods, you know "real" food.

They must not sell that at my supermarket. I went down every isle and everything except the fruit section had high fructose corn syrup or partially hydrogenated corn oil in it.

Strategist says

Sadly, the free market did not work here

Holy shit! Strategist admitting that the free market sometimes fails? Or is this a body snatcher?

https://www.youtube.com/embed/GEStsLJZhzo

errc says

Dan, im curious as to why you used the term "free market" here

The free market has failed to produce a healthy food supply.

The food industry, largely left to decide what is available in supermarkets for us to buy and eat, spent all their time, effort, and resources turning food in drugs and eliciting a bliss point that turns people into addicts for their products.

Perhaps with a move towards socialized medicine, the government now realizes it's in its best financial interests not to fatten up Americans like cattle.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

Sadly, the free market did not work here

Holy shit! Strategist admitting that the free market sometimes fails? Or is this a body snatcher?

Nothing works perfectly every time, which is why government intervention is necessary at times. The 2008 Great Recession with the Feds intervening to prevent a depression is just one example. The power of the oil companies is another. I can assure you the oil companies are doing everything possible under the sun to keep alternative energy from taking root. I also assure you they will fail miserably.
Nevertheless, free markets and capitalism is the best system that exists, but needs a watchful eye to prevent abuse.

I can go to my local super market and buy pretty much everything one needs for healthy eating. And no need to peruse any aisles, just make the outer loop. You're just flat out wrong here, dan

I'd be glad to be wrong about this. Got any shopping tips, preferably ones that don't involve cooking?

If you want free market food production examples, look at the Chinese baby formula scandal, where a Chinese formula company used plastic instead of whey protein in their baby formula to save money on production costs. That's the free market, where supercapitalists stick it to consumers for the fast buck!
Sure the owners went to jail, but not until after they'd made thousands of babies sick from drinking their toxic product.

Yea just go to the salad bar and load er up with greens and veggies, some hard boiled egg and bacon crumbles, top with oil and vinegar, if youre not willing to put in a little work for your health. Food is only fuel, and i couldnt think of anything more important

Quigley says

If you want free market food production examples, look at the Chinese baby formula scandal, where a Chinese formula company used plastic instead of whey protein in their baby formula to save money on production costs. That's the free market, where supercapitalists stick it to consumers for the fast buck!

Sure the owners went to jail, but not until after they'd made thousands of babies sick from drinking their toxic product.

Thats not free markets. That's attempted murder as far as I am concerned. Betcha they are now in jail making license plates for California.

If you want free market food production examples, look at the Chinese baby formula scandal

--------------

Thats a terrible example. No informed mother would substitue formula made in china, for breast milk.

Hey this reminds me of some of the benefits of Obama's TPP.
According to one source (and who the hell knows except the 600 corporate lobbyists privy to the complete text):

"The TPP would require us to allow food imports if the exporting country claims that their safety regime is "equivalent" to our own, even if it violates the key principles of our food safety laws. These rules would effectively outsource domestic food inspection to other countries.

Under the TPP, any U.S. food safety rule on pesticides, labeling or additives that is higher than international standards would be subject to challenge as "illegal trade barriers." The U.S. could be required to eliminate these rules and allow in the unsafe food under threat of trade sanctions."

If it is pesticide free or organic according to some skeezy Malay exporter, well you can just shut the fuck up.

errc says

Curious, im curious as to why you used the word "healthy" here

healthy organic peanut butter

We commented about this once before. If you are not allergic to peanuts, and if the peanuts are not contaminated with fungi or other hazards, they are healthy. Just ask Jimmy Carter, former peanut farmer, still active at age 90. Granted, almonds and almond butter may well be healthier than peanuts and peanut butter, but both are better than CAFO pork, for example. You seem to like pork, which in America is a lethal industry that kills both its customers and innocent people via swine flu. I'll grant that humans do occasionally need some "first class" (usually animal) proteins, but very rarely (e.g. annually) and there are better sources (e.g. properly cooked eggs or fish).

Dan8267 says

Got any shopping tips, preferably ones that don't involve cooking?

When traveling in Florida, one of the best meals I had was at the supermarket salad bar. A random elderly person and I were the only customers. I suspect that when fresh produce arrived, the supermarket sorted what could sit on shelves a while and what was already ripe and needed to be eaten right away, and the latter went to the salad bar. In CA, I buy similarly, stuff that is already ripe can't sit on supermarket shelves so it gets sold in little bodegas at a deep discount. Good food, cheap prices. Salad bars prepare everything for you, and wash the dishes in their machines, saving time.

Where errc suggested bacon, I'd suggest red beans, but he's right about oil & vinegar; look for olive oil (greenish) if they have it.

errc says

People in 3rd world countries....

tend to have shorter life expectancies due often to a lack of clean water. One of my favorite examples of epidemiology: a 19th century London study found brewery workers healthier than their neighbors, because the alcohol and brewing process killed the pathogens in the water supply. Today, municipal tap water from your local government is a healthier choice than beer or bottled water.

Time: "The Case for Eating Butter Just Got Stronger
***
"saturated fat is kind of neutral overall,” Mozaffarian says. “Vegetable oils and fruits and nuts are healthier than butter, but on the other hand, low-fat turkey meat or a bagel or cornflakes or soda is worse for you than butter.
***
research is mounting that saturated fat is better for you than processed carbohydrates like sugar and white bread, which have been linked to diabetes, obesity and heart disease many times over. In April, Mozaffarian published a separate study in the journal Circulation that analyzed the blood of 3,333 adults and found that people who had higher levels of three byproducts from full-fat dairy had a 46% lower risk of getting diabetes than people with lower levels. Other studies have also shown that full-fat products like dairy can be useful in weight maintenance and other health factors."

That just says that butter is better than sugar or trans fats. That's hardly a ringing endorsement.

One thing that many people may not know is that when you see 0 g trans fats on the front of a package, it most likely has 0.5 g trans fats per serving. Otherwise, it would say No trans fats. Always look on the back for partially hydrogenated oils. Burrito wraps are terrible about this.

@curious2, based on what you've written in other threads, you probably would like books by H Gilbert Welch. http://www.amazon.com/H.-Gilbert-Welch/e/B00J48RHZU/ref=sr_tc_2_0?qid=1467306198&sr=1-2-ent

the thing about trans fats is that the profit margins are way higher than butter. the stuff costs nothing to make, doesn't go bad, and you can sell it for near the price of butter.

so there was a huge motive to pretend trans fats are healthful, even. but trans fats are very bad for you.

best to stick with foods people have eaten for millenia, like butter.

curious2 says

To this day, many Americans serve corn as a vegetable, even though it is a subsidized grain

I think in its soft kernel state like on the cob or off. Then it is a vegetable. It's the only grain you can eat without further processing.
I think grains are only grains when they dried, and rolled, milled or ground and turned into another state than when it grew from plant.
Grains are most always modified grasses in some form or other. Corn is the only grain that can be eaten in a vegetable state.

back on topic
It's already happening.
BJ's has stopped selling Tuna packed in Oil.
It's the tuna fish my Wife uses to make Caussa basically a Peruvian Shepard Pie(ish) dish.
That has Mashed potatoes mixed in with lime, then seasoned Onions and Tuna packed in oil on the bottom of a pan.
Place the mashed potato/lime/aji amarijo mixture on the top. Served with white rice(it kills me who they can over starch a meal like that).

For the last 6 months or more, my Wife is dumb founded that she can't find tuna in Oil she's bought it there since we became members over 20 years ago.

On a side note, finding unprocessed lard is getting easier to find. And it's amazing that when you fry French Fries or things like fried chicken or fish fillets how very little oil soaks up in the food.
Vegetable Oil and the other Oils that we were supposed to use at the turn of the last century, made everything you cooked greasy and horrible. There's no way all of that sopping dipping disgusting Oil people have eaten over the years could be better than Lard, duck fat, or clarified butter for frying. no way.

Still my wife or daughters will eat what I cook in protest. Then rave about how good it taste and how there's no grease at all. My youngest daughter will literally take each french fry and and roll it over paper towels. And then pat dry each piece of chicken or fish with a paper towel. She also sorts out her Chinese rice and divides out the onion bits from the carrot bits, discard the peas, most of the char chui, and aggregates all of the egg. Then reassembles it to her desired ratio liking.
When she pats my fried food there is no grease on the paper towel compared to when things are fried in veg and grain oils. Which is still every time the wife or daughters cook any fried food.
They just can't bring them selves to cook with animal fat, even though they have seen for them selves that is far superior and healthier for you than the Slim Waistline line salad Oil lie they started selling us in the 80's to now.

Tenpoundbass says

Grains are most always modified grasses in some form or other. Corn is the only grain that can be eaten in a vegetable state.

Thanks, that got me reading and learning more about corn, which can be considered a grain, fruit, or vegetable, depending on the context.

"“The criteria is whether it comes from the reproductive part of a plant or the vegetative part of the plant,” Dr. Pritts said. “If it comes from the reproductive part of the plant, it’s a fruit. If it comes from the vegetative part of the plant, it’s a vegetable.”

Botanically speaking, corn is a caryopsis, or dry fruit — popularly known as a grain."

The glycemic index of corn exceeds most vegetables and is nearer to grains, but is lower than potatoes.

Nutritionally though, it does count as a vegetable.

I have updated the OP to remove the digression into the fruit/vegetable/grain distinction, since the OP was mainly about trans fats.

"Banishing trans fats from foods is linked to reductions in the number of heart attacks and cardiovascular deaths in the years after the bans are implemented, according to data from cities and counties in New York that have made the cut.
***
In June of 2015, the Food and Drug Administration ruled that trans fats were no longer considered generally safe. Food manufacturers have until June 18, 2018 to ditch partially hydrogenated oils, the source of most industrial trans fats.

Dan8267 says

Excellent. For all those free market whiners, we the consumers don't really have a choice in this anyway because these trans-fats are in everything.

The free market has failed to produce a healthy food supply. Food is infrastructure, and the free market does not do infrastructure well.

Apparently Dan has never heard of Whole Foods.

Tenpoundbass says

curious2 says

To this day, many Americans serve corn as a vegetable, even though it is a subsidized grain

I think in its soft kernel state like on the cob or off. Then it is a vegetable. It's the only grain you can eat without further processing.

I think grains are only grains when they dried, and rolled, milled or ground and turned into another state than when it grew from plant.

Grains are most always modified grasses in some form or other. Corn is the only grain that can be eaten in a vegetable state.

back on topic

It's already happening.

BJ's has stopped selling Tuna packed in Oil.

It's the tuna fish my Wife uses to make Caussa basically a Peruvian Shepard Pie(ish) dish.

That has Mashed potatoes mixed in with lime, then seasoned Onions and Tuna packed in oil on the bottom of a pan.

Place the mashed potato/lime/aji amarijo mixture on the top. Served...

Any meat that I cook, I run the grease through a fine mesh coffee filter and store it in the freezer. I use it for deep frying. It's smoke point is high enough so that it doesn't smell up the house and the food barely has any grease on it when I take it out. It tastes better too.

What happened to Freedom of Choice?
One has the right to be stupid.

theoakman says

Dan8267 says

Excellent. For all those free market whiners, we the consumers don't really have a choice in this anyway because these trans-fats are in everything.

The free market has failed to produce a healthy food supply. Food is infrastructure, and the free market does not do infrastructure well.

Apparently Dan has never heard of Whole Foods.

There are currently 456 Whole Food stores in the entire world compared to 38,000 grocery stores in the U.S. alone. That makes Whole Foods less than 1.2% of the market. It's hardly an option for most Americans.

Yes, the wealthy can always get access to good food, health care, and an unpolluted environment. That doesn't mean the masses fair as well.

The reality is that most Americans only have access to unhealthy foods, are tricked into unhealthy purchases by supermarkets, are economically encouraged to eat unhealthy, and may even live in a food desert. But hey, just keep believing that I'm making all this shit up. After all, if you don't want to believe something, shoot the messenger.

Maybe you don't give a damn about other people's health, but you should at least care about your tax dollars going to pay for the healthcare costs that would not be necessary if not for these problems. Those problems cost you a European vacation in five star hotels.

Dan8267 says

The reality is that most Americans only have access to unhealthy foods, are tricked into unhealthy purchases by supermarkets, are economically encouraged to eat unhealthy, and may even live in a food desert. But hey, just keep believing that I'm making all this shit up. After all, if you don't want to believe something, shoot the messenger.

What nonsense. Being "tricked" or "economically encouraged" into buying junk doesn't mean they don't have access to healthy foods. It means they chose not to buy them. Food deserts is a joke. Look at the map. Most are rural places with very low populations. Not that much population is involved. People aren't living in west texas or eastern oregon or the adirondacks or rural appalachia without cars.

The reality is most Americans LIKE to eat crap. Over half of money spent on food is eating out or take away. I don't believe for a second that people are tricked into getting into their car to drive to a fast food place for take out death in a bag. They are not tricked into driving to 7-11 for a 64 oz slurpy and a big bag of chips. They are not tricked into loading up the cart with chips soda, and ice cream. The average supermarket has an entire isle of soda, an entire isle of chips, and entire isle of cookies because people want to buy it. No one is holding a gun to their heads.

How is it most americans can get to mcd's or KFC but can't get groceries? I live in a really rural area (nearest stop light is 30 miles away) and everyone has a supermarket within 15 minutes drive that has what what you need to fix very reasonable healthy meals at a cost not much different than prepared foods or take out. If you bother to buy and fix it. From what I see in carts the majority of people don't want to bother.