patrick.net

The only problem with your statement is that it is not my theory. My positions are:
1- kids being spanked by well meaning parents ( not sadists) are more likely being spanked for doing something stupid, therefore confirming they were stupid prior to being spanked.
2- neither article demonstrates the process of how grey matter is reduced via spanking. For fucks sake they never even measured it. Their results are pure speculation equivalent to, but not more believable than #1 above.
Dan8267 says

Your theory that spanking does not lower IQs does not make the same prediction as the theory that spanking does lower IQs.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

Do any parents Cleveland steamer their kids to discipline them?

Mommy, Daddy, can we go back to the Cat "O Nine Tails again?

Dan8267 says

Spanking makes kids stupid

I would never argue that spanking kids is good, or that it's a particularly effective way to modify children's behavior. But I find the causation conclusion (or implication) of the study highly questionable.

It makes sense to me that less intelligent parents with less intelligent children are more likely to spank/or be spanked. If parents are less intelligent, they're probably more inclined to consider spanking as a form of punishment if only because they have read less about parenting. IF the child is less intelligent, they are going to be less capable of understanding rules or why following them will benefit them. Also if a child is unintelligent, they may be dissappointing to parents who in some cases may be assholes, who think somehow they might be able to spank some sense in to their stupid kids.

So any study that shows spanked children turn out on average to be less intelligent doesn't imply anything about causation.

Maybe it's just that more intelligent children:

1) are in general better behaved as well as more likely to learn from their mistakes

2) likely to have better communication skills with their parents - including listening to their rules and warnings about consequences.

3) are likely to have intelligent parents (the nature side of nature nurture surely hold some weight), and maybe more intelligent parents are less likely to spank their children.

4) are less likely to live in highly dysfunctional homes in which various forms of neglect occur and in which there is little consistency in rules or consequences.

In dysfunctional homes a child may find it difficult to feel adequately loved by parents whose behavior seems to be unpredictable and sometimes punitive without good reason. In such cases children may feel "at war" with parents from an early age, This can sometimes be a pattern passed down through generations, leading to bad behavior relative to other authority figures as well.

I wouldn't be at all surprised that if it were possible to accurately measure a child's intelligence at birth, if higher intelligence was a good predictor of being spanked less. We don't know if this is true or not, but if it is, then it would negate any conclusions (or implications) of causation from the study.

Even a dog can learn obedience.

Lead poisoning, now I know what's wrong with me.

DieBankOfAmericaPhukkingDie says

Spanking and screaming non-stop for hours an inch from a kids face will save parent a lifetime of talking better spent working, finding a better job or robbing liquor stores.

If your kid's a smart ass, you can dumb him down proportionately with strategic spanking. How many brain cells disposed of per hiding? I am sure this must have been a precision study.

You realize that you are implying that the Wogster, Tat, SBH were abused as children?

how can you use as an example something you repeatedly bleet does not, and would never occur?
this is damning Freudian evidence advancing the notion that you post out of anger, and not from your heart.

Dan8267 says

So when I'm on the jury judging the cop

Yo...

bgamall4 says

Who?

since i totally annihilated the validity of the referenced studies in this thread, I thought i'd chuck you this freebie....independents do have hearts y'know...

Dan8267 says

now i gotta read the article to see if i fucked up...

You don't have to read the article to see if you are fucked up. Anyone on this site can tell you that.

I got my ass spanked more than once when I was a child. Now I'm stupid,but smarter than Democratic & Republican voters. They must have been beaten.

bgamall4 says

I have one child who was spanked who makes close to 200k per year. This thread is really, well, dumb.

Generalizing from a set of one is the quintessential example of a hasty generalization. Do you really think that your anecdotal evidence outweighs peer-reviewed scientific studies?

HydroCabron says

CiC's parents must have spanked him 4-6 hours each day, and 10 on weekends

Not past tense. And not as punishment, but reward.

SoftShell says

kids being spanked by well meaning parents ( not sadists)

If a parent still approves of spanking and does it after hearing the evidence against it, then that is sadistic and lazy parenting. The gig's up. Science has weighed in. Spanking harms, not helps, children. Spanking causes anti-social behavior. Even if your warped common sense told you that spanking improves behavior, the hard-core evidence is in. Anyone who rejects that does so, not out of rationality or good intentions, but out of a sadistic pleasure they get from beating their kids.

Any well-meaning parent would cease spanking after hearing these peer-reviewed reports from reputable sources.

SoftShell says

neither article demonstrates the process of how grey matter is reduced via spanking.

Although the question how is important, it is not necessary to answer that question to show that spanking does reduce grey matter. The spankers never answer the question how spanking helps kids other than with annotated assertions with zero basis for comparison. Spankers believe spanking is good because they want to, just like climate change and evolution deniers believe their dogma, despite all evidence to the contrary.

marcus says

So any study that shows spanked children turn out on average to be less intelligent doesn't imply anything about causation.

With enough data, statistics can eliminate such lurking variables. For example, by comparing intelligence between spanked and not spanked grouped by any lurking variable. As an alleged mathematics teacher, you should know this. The insurance and marketing industries demonstrate the power of statistical analysis every single day. They solve the very problem you say is impossible to solve, every single day. Hell, Target even outed a pregnant teen before her daddy knew using these techniques.

[A] man walked into a Target outside Minneapolis and demanded to see the manager. He was clutching coupons that had been sent to his daughter, and he was angry, according to an employee who participated in the conversation.

“My daughter got this in the mail!” he said. “She’s still in high school, and you’re sending her coupons for baby clothes and cribs? Are you trying to encourage her to get pregnant?”

The manager didn’t have any idea what the man was talking about. He looked at the mailer. Sure enough, it was addressed to the man’s daughter and contained advertisements for maternity clothing, nursery furniture and pictures of smiling infants. The manager apologized and then called a few days later to apologize again.

On the phone, though, the father was somewhat abashed. “I had a talk with my daughter,” he said. “It turns out there’s been some activities in my house I haven’t been completely aware of. She’s due in August. I owe you an apology.”

Oh, but the same damn math can't tell if spanking harms kids. You have no idea what technology can do. [More details at NY Times.]

SoftShell says

how can you use as an example something you repeatedly bleet does not, and would never occur?

Clearly you don't read the news.

Cop shoots and kills sleeping 7-year-old girl and frames her grandmother.

So, now that your statement is unequivocally proven false, will you admit to your mistake? Or do you prefer to be one of those people who watch the 9/11 footage and scream "Fake!"?

SoftShell says

since i totally annihilated the validity of the referenced studies in this thread

You make Peter Quill look like someone with a well-grounded self-perception.

bgamall4 says

I have one child who was spanked who makes close to 200k per year.

He might still be into spanking, for all we know.

Dan8267 says

marcus says

So any study that shows spanked children turn out on average to be less intelligent doesn't imply anything about causation.

With enough data, statistics can eliminate such lurking variables. For example, by comparing intelligence between spanked and not spanked grouped by any lurking variable. As an alleged mathematics teacher, you should know this.

Actually, I have taught AP Statistics a couple times, and for one thing, lurking variables were not necessarily relevant to my point. Intelligence of parents might be considered a lurking variable. But my point was that for all we know, the causation may go the other way, that is with smarter kids being less likely to be spanked. This might or might not be related to a lurking variablesuch as the intelligence of the parents. It also may or may not be related to a confounding variable such as say socioeconomic status.

As far as I can tell, they did not and are not able to measure the intelligence of the 2 to 4 year old kids before they are spanked. They simply observed that if spanked between 2 and 4, they on average seem to be less intelligent a couple years later.

One of the goals of an introductory course in statistics, is that students learn enough of the logic and methodologies of statistical inference that they can spot highly questionable studies such as this one. There is a well known reason behind the expression "statistics lie."

I never said that it would be impossible to determine,with statistical analysis and technology, but I do think that it's very difficult to measure the intelligence or intellectual potential (BEFORE) of a 2 year old, in part because of the substantial variance in times that toddlers pick up basic skills such as talking and walking and including various cognitive skills.

Dan8267 says

Oh, but the same damn math can't tell if spanking harms kids. You have no idea what technology can do

Wtf ? The result of data mining or whatever kind of analysis of the girls internet habits that target had access to (probably something she actually filled out with her address) is the same Math as that used in the study.? Well, I guess in the sense that data was gathered, and analysis was done on the data, the two situations have something in common.

This is nothing more than a liberal big government one shoe fits everyone kind of garbage.

Hailed by whiny people like Dan or sensitive people like BAO who have no clue how to raise children outside of all white go-nice Bay Area ritzy hood. Go raise a kid in a ghetto where severe occasional beating is the only thing that may work under certain circumstances then come back and talk. Can't blame them, they only know the life they had. They have no idea the life other folks have.

FortWayne says

Go raise a kid in a ghetto where severe occasional beating

That's a recipe to get the kid removed by child protective services and rightfully so. Having a difficult life is no excuse for child abuse or committing criminal acts.

FortWayne says

This is nothing more than a liberal big government one shoe fits everyone kind of garbage.

Stopping child abuse is big government one shoe fits all?

FortWayne says

Hailed by whiny people like Dan

Stopping child abuse is whiny? You are morally bankrupt.

FortWayne says

Go raise a kid in a ghetto where severe occasional beating is the only thing that may work under certain circumstances then come back and talk.

Oh, so you like the idea of beating black children. What a surprise.

Fort Wayne, everything is not about you ya know.

You may have been spanked as a kid, but I don't think Dan was necessarily drawing any conclusions about you. That is even if the

FortWayne says

shoe fits

(i feel so dirty - having used CICs standard trolling technique - quoting out of context like that. What can I say - it was too good to pass up)

I was spanked everyday of my life growing up. At age 11 I lay in bed wondering how I was not spanked all day, thinking back to when I woke up that morning into the entire day until I lay in bed at that moment. Thinking to myself how is it I made the first day of my life and not getting spanked; suddenly the door burst open my mother rushes in with a belt, slapping at me under the covers pulled tight and swiping at me for something I did way earlier in the day and leaving just as soon as she entered. I then lay there in shock, unhurt physically as usual, but in shock non the less thinking I had almost made my first day.

Why do I share this:

My IQ last tested was over 160 and I am old.

Nothing a good Ass Whooping wouldn't fix spanking some of these monster kids roaming the streets today!!!

casandra says

My IQ last tested was over 160 and I am old.

If you actually had an IQ of 160, you wouldn't make a hasty generalization, especially since this has already pointed out in this thread.

FYI, only 0.0031686035% of people have an IQ of 160 or greater. That means there are 225,763 such people in the world. I highly doubt that you are one of them.

casandra says

I was spanked everyday of my life growing up.

Your mother was fucked up...

yes, she had a chemical imbalance. as a kid i recognized something was wrong, but i was really more concerned about her, even when i was just a kid. things got resolved extremely well when i became an adult. she acknowledged i had a hard time growing up due to her, but i forgave her even as a child. you guys can criticize me here, i don't mind, i am old rich and lived a full life. heck i may even still even out live many of you half my age, but i wish long life and great fortune to all.

casandra says

My IQ last tested was over 160 and I am old.

Just think, if you had never been spanked, your IQ would be 200!

dublin hillz says

That's a recipe to get the kid removed by child protective services and rightfully so. Having a difficult life is no excuse for child abuse or committing criminal acts.

Spoken like a true big government liberal who wants to tell people how to live their lives and how to raise their children, while having absolutely no clue about it himself. You and your liberal friends should move and make a new town called Assholeville. You'd all fit perfectly there, it'be a liberal paradise where you can tell each other what to do and envoke big government when someone disagrees with your hurt feelings.

Dan8267 says

Stopping child abuse is big government one shoe fits all?

Spanking isn't child abuse, it's just parenting. I don't expect a liberal to understand that, there are a lot of things that you kids don't get.

FortWayne says

Spoken like a true big government liberal who wants to tell people how to live their lives and how to raise their children, while having absolutely no clue about it himself.

Actually CPS is often the only kind of defense that children have against abuse. Speaking of spanking, in cali, it's not considered grounds for removal if there are no visible marks. Beatings that result in marks can result in progressive discipline of the parents up to and including removal. But since you are big on generalizations, I am gonna use a line from Training Day - "we dropping cases on all you bitches!" Ha ha ha....

at Ceffer, you beat me to that post about my IQ being over 200 if I was never spanked, :)

FortWayne says

Spanking isn't child abuse, it's just parenting. I don't expect a liberal to understand that, there are a lot of things that you kids don't get.

Don't count on the jury agreeing with you. Only conservatives are batshit crazy enough to think that assault is "just parenting".

https://www.Wl9y3SIPt7o

Spanking, if it's illegal for a stranger to do it to you, then it's illegal for you to do it to your kid.

FortWayne says

don't expect a liberal to understand that, there are a lot of things that you kids don't get.

Mao and Stalin, the archetypal liberals, did not shy from beatings.

HydroCabron says

Mao and Stalin, the archetypal liberals, did not shy from beatings.

Mao and Stalin were economic leftists (communists) and social conservatives (just like Republicans). They were not even remotely liberal.

People who don't know what liberalism is will not make correct statements about liberals.

Dan8267 says

Spanking, if it's illegal for a stranger to do it to you, then it's illegal for you to do it to your kid.

Stranger can't take my child into his car either, so should I not drive my car.

My god, you liberals get dumber by the minute. It's kind of funny how liberals pretend to love freedoms, but want big government to own our children. If government can tell you how to raise your children, it owns your children. Welcome to communism comrade Stalin. Clueless like a true liberal. Maybe one day government will call liberalism a child-abuse, that'll be a riot for you I bet. But it'll make sense because that's the kind of state ownership you asked for.

FortWayne says

My god, you liberals get dumber by the minute. It's kind of funny how liberals pretend to love freedoms, but want big government to own our children. If government can tell you how to raise your children, it owns your children. Welcome to communism comrade Stalin. Clueless like a true liberal. Maybe one day government will call liberalism a child-abuse, that'll be a riot for you I bet. But it'll make sense because that's the kind of state ownership you asked for.

Bad news dude, santa clara county social workers won't be striking, they will be out in force today pumped up by the tentative agreement just itching to remove the kids aided by armed police backing them up. It's gonna be an awesome day, wish it was on pay per view...

http://abc7news.com/business/strike-averted-by-thousands-of-santa-clara-county-workers/817706/

FortWayne says

Dan8267 says

Spanking, if it's illegal for a stranger to do it to you, then it's illegal for you to do it to your kid.

Stranger can't take my child into his car either, so should I not drive my car.

I said you, not your kids. But yes, kidnapping is illegal even for parents. Many a father has been convicted of kidnapping his children. And no, you should not kidnap your children.

Dan8267 says

I said you, not your kids. But yes, kidnapping is illegal even for parents. Many a father has been convicted of kidnapping his children. And no, you should not kidnap your children.

That is the saddest come back I've ever seen. Maybe one day you'll finally realize the kind of police state you liberals are actually creating.

FortWayne says

That is the saddest come back I've ever seen. Maybe one day you'll finally realize the kind of police state you liberals are actually creating.

You have got to be joking. Liberals are creating a police state by upholding anti-child-abuse laws? Meanwhile, conservatives are arresting, sexually assaulting, even raping minors with their war on drugs. And yes, placing a gloved finger up a person's ass to search for drugs meets the legal definition of rape.

So assaulting and raping children is OK to conservatives, but a liberal suggests that those who beat their kids to the extent of causing permanent injury are guilty of child abuse, and that's a police state. You are so full of shit.

Dan8267 says

but a liberal suggests that those who beat their kids to the extent of causing permanent injury are guilty of child abuse, and that's a police state.

"Permanent Injury" is pretty far from "Spanking". Because last time you called regular "Spanking" child abuse. Boy this is getting even more interesting by the minute. You've managed to double walk away from your own argument. Dan you must be the most interesting person to debate, I bet if you get really drunk you can win an argument against yourself.

So, are you ok with this guy? Cause a lot of juries wouldn't be.

https://www.Wl9y3SIPt7o