patrick.net

Dan8267 says

If the guy on the right makes a decent living

Don't know anymore, as today, I'm somewhat rich but have restricted all my banging activities to hoes up in Canada.

Thus, no stateside skank will ever pull a Kobe Bryant on me and get at my eggsnest.

Willem Dafoe, 60, newlywed to a 39-year old Italian Model
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-3177201/Shirtless-Willem-Dafoe-60-relaxes-beach-holiday-stunning-bikini-clad-wife-Giada-Colagrande-39-Italy.html

thunderlips11 says

Willem Dafoe, 60, newlywed to a 39-year old Italian Model

For the life of me, I can't understand what would drive a rich 60-something to marriage.

Marriage is the folly of those in their 20s and early 30s, you know ... young and naive, or was it "young, dumb, and full of cum"?

If I were in Dafoe's shoes, I'd basically keeping a long distance mistress at that age. So that yes, when I'm visiting [ Italy, Brazil, Singapore, etc ], I'd meet up with the mistress for a romp, but that's about it.

Projecting much?

I've gone on the record saying that a blow job doesn't qualify as sexual relations in contrast to your position, Clinton-hater.

I will concede that your activities with road kill qualify as sex, disgusting sex, but sex nonetheless.

YesYNot says

Engineers are a pain in the ass to sales people, b/c they don't know how to sell to them. I know they hate me, and the feeling is pretty much mutual. To the extent that women are less likely to be engineers, perhaps reflects this on the tail end of the spectrum. Yes, this is supposed to be a reference to the autistic spectrum, because engineers are not really reflective of the median guy anyway. None of this is really knowable though. I recognize it for speculation with no real value.

I'm going to say that engineers are academics, who're confused by the message given by mainstream society, that they're valuable members of the workforce.

Since many women won't study ancient Etruscan languages over let's say modern French or Chinese, out of the sense that it's hard (or too erudite) and at the same time, not as lucrative as being a CPA/CFA/Series 7, they simply won't do it.

YesYNot says

Engineers are a pain in the ass to sales people, b/c they don't know how to sell to them. I know they hate me, and the feeling is pretty much mutual.

Wait a second. You're not even in STEM and your bitching and moaning about us not doing enough to encourage more women and fewer men to go into STEM? You don't get to have an opinion on this if your not a STEM worker or student especially when your attitude to STEM people is

Yes, this is supposed to be a reference to the autistic spectrum, because engineers are not really reflective of the median guy anyway.

You're part of the reason why there are so few women in STEM. Why would any woman want to go into STEM when it's as disrespected as you demonstrate? Men who are interested in STEM go into the fields despite this stigma. Women are not willing to endure this stigma.

The fact is that STEM should be the most respected set of fields. It contributes more to society than all other fields together, isn't parasitic like the financial industry, and is absolutely critical to how people live their lives every single day.

Here is a pager and a laptop with terminal emulator software installed. You answer pages and fix crappy software at 2am.

Welcome to STEM

I am in STEM. I have a BS and PhD in Chemical Engineering, and work in the field. When I said,Dan8267 says

I know they hate me, and the feeling is pretty much mutual.

, I was referring to sales people.

And I don't think that saying many engineers are on the spectrum is an insult. It's simply a recognition that on one side you have autism, and the other side is your normal median guy/gal. Scientists and engineers (more often than other members of society) are somewhere on this spectrum in the sense that they can be delve very deeply into arcane topics, and tend to be less guided by emotions and relationships. Also, from my perspective, they can often have more trouble relating to others than a typical person has.

Rin and Dan, people who study engineering in school are one thing. They often go on to work on making money in business or finance, and do pretty well at it. Those who make a career as a scientist or do real engineering work themselves are more like artists from the perspective of motivation and remuneration. They are generally doing it because they like it and are willing to sacrifice $ / unit effort. Otherwise, perhaps they were just duped into it.

After graduating, I was offered positions in more managerial or finance positions. The finance offer was developing applied math models used by the trading arm of an energy company. In hindsight, that would have been a demanding, but financially much more rewarding position than what I took. I pretty much knew that at the time (15 yrs ago), although I wasn't sure to what extent financial quants would be utilized.

YesYNot says

I am in STEM. I have a BS and PhD in Chemical Engineering, and work in the field. When I said,Dan8267 says

I know they hate me, and the feeling is pretty much mutual.

, I was referring to sales people.

OK. The wording through me off, understandably.

I can't stand people who wrongly criticize STEM men for women not being in STEM and they aren't even in STEM themselves. Such hypocrisy.

YesYNot says

Those who make a career as a scientist or do real engineering work themselves are more like artists from the perspective of motivation and remuneration. They are generally doing it because they like it and are willing to sacrifice $ / unit effort.

Yes, and a much smaller percentage of women like science and engineering than men do. Most sci-fi fans are men. Do you talk about Star Wars when you hit on women? I hope not.

So, either you judge women inferior for not being as interested in STEM as men are, or you accept that it's okay for people to have different interests and thus also accept that given the freedom to do whatever they want for a living, fewer women than men will enter STEM. Quite frankly, I think the former is the sexist philosophy. STEM is great and I love it, but I don't look at people who aren't interested in it as being inferior.

I don't mind if women shun STEM and do not have equal representation in the field. I want them to have equal opportunity, and equal opportunity in practice is not a given just because laws do not codify discrimination.

YesYNot says

I want them to have equal opportunity

And where do they not have equal opportunity? If I recall correctly, a number of women got MS's in chemical engineering, because they couldn't get through the qualifiers to start on their PhDs. And then, a few even added a few courses from the business school, to get into project management roles.

So if the only women attending a PhD program in chemical engineering are from Romania, India, or China ... why is it a problem? We know that these women are on a student visa to stay in America and thus, will put up with the workload, just for that reason alone.

Rin says

And where do they not have equal opportunity?

Addressed with the literature cited in this thread. Through constant discouragement along the way by people with unconscious bias. It's not a huge effect, but it seems to be there, and most people here don't see it and / or will not admit it.

YesYNot says

Rin says

And where do they not have equal opportunity?

Addressed with the literature cited in this thread. Through constant discouragement along the way by people with unconscious bias. It's not a huge effect, but it seems to be there, and most people here don't see it and / or will not admit it.

In that case, I wish I were told continually, that engineers were a bunch of losers and then, I would have been a biology/premed in college instead of engineering.

YesYNot says

I don't mind if women shun STEM and do not have equal representation in the field. I want them to have equal opportunity

As do I. However, if anything, women have huge advantages to entering STEM given all the educational, financial, and hiring support for them. The fact that so few women enter STEM fields despite enormous efforts over the past 40 years to get them into these fields demonstrates women's huge lack of interest in these careers. I wish government, colleges, and companies put one tenth the effort into making me happy as they do female STEM candidates. I succeeded despite having zero support or encouragement, and in fact had to overcome countless assaults and subterfuge from competitors.

So, you think that a caustic and aggressive approach is the best way to teach, and that women just can't hack it? Where's Marcus?

Women are not banned on this site, but their viewpoint is not accepted. Many of them have probably written it off as a sexist shithole, and they'd rather spend their time elsewhere. Jesus, bring up Hillary Clinton and see what happens. Two serious comments if you are lucky, and 8 comments on hirsute lesbians, sucking bankster cock, etc.

I also don't think your opinion on the subject of gender is anywhere near what society would deem moderate in the last 50 years.

Rin says

I would have been a biology/premed in college instead of engineering.

But you would now be stuck with big loans working to pay them off. I thought you preferred stashing mad cash so that you can retire young as a man of leisure trotting the globe and sampling the prostitutes as well as culinary delights.

YesYNot says

Rin says

I would have been a biology/premed in college instead of engineering.

But you would now be stuck with big loans working to pay them off. I thought you preferred stashing mad cash so that you can retire young as a man of leisure trotting the globe and sampling the prostitutes as well as culinary delights.

The hedge fund thing is called luck. My studies in Applied Chemistry/Chemical Engineering had little to do with it. I could have done economics or finance at let's say the London School of Economics, since our 1st trader was an LSE alumni and I did have the marks to transfer into that place.

Most persons I know about, earn a regular good salary plus a bonus (in the field), very few are among the starting dozen.

As for medical school, that's a guaranteed thing. Sure, as an anesthesiologist, I wouldn't have equity in a trading company, however, earning $400K/yr for the rest of one's natural life isn't a bad way of enjoying fine foods and periodically banging hoes up in Canada. The only difference is that I'll be done in this business whereas the anesthesiologist would be working for a few more decades. I suspect that it's easy to pay back the loans with that kind of income, esp if one moves to a small town.

Rin says

There is no incentive for anyone to enter STEM. Even the guys who'd started as engineers, later on in their careers, move into management, sales, or some consulting role. Look no further than LinkedIn and it's apparent, the number of ppl, esp men, who'd started with a degree in engineering, leave for more business-y roles within a 10 to 15 year career span. The reason why so many men enter STEM programs is one, they did well in math during high school and two, were lied to, by academics, telling 'em that there's a perennial shortages of S&Es.

In contrast, women see the situation for what it is, a lot of homework when a certified public accountant can achieve the same salary for half the effort, or even better, a chartered financial analyst (CFA). And thus, you don't see a shortage of women entering the monied fields.

In Rin's prose, everything is always reduced to 1 dimension. There is nothing about interest, or a chance to invent something, create a company, solve a problem to make life easier, etc, etc... No none of this exists. It's all down to money.

I guess that's the only way you could consider a career like accountant that guaranties you will spend your life adding numbers and bored to death, over a career as an engineer.

Hillary's realtors

Made false rape accusations

Against men in STEM

Heraclitusstudent says

I guess that's the only way you could consider a career like accountant that guaranties you will spend your life adding numbers and bored to death, over a career as an engineer.

The notion that work isn't repetitive nor stress laden and that everyone is living some Leonardo DaVinci lifestyle is also a myth. Many engineers also push pencil, not everyone is in some creative new research development role.

At least as an accountant, one can wear some headphones, listen to one's favorite tunes, and still get the work done with few errors. And as far as I can tell, many corporate controllers basically spend their time, shooting the breeze with their friends in the office. Since the world has interests outside of the job, it shouldn't be too hard to find a work/life balance in an accounting role.

Heraclitusstudent says

over a career as an engineer

Just to add to my theme ... I'm pretty sure that during college/grad school, an electronics engineer was probably not thinking that his career was to generate flat files of a fixed format, for oracle utilities like sqlloader, to populate a database.

In the above example, which BTW is a true story, the so-called engineer has a task, not too distinct from an accountant but because his *interface* is a computing platform, it's considered a tech job. Plus, given the state of the data extractions, he probably isn't able to sleep through the job, having to verify all his input parameters, on a regular basis. At least accounting/audit tasks tend to be straightforward and thus, many ppl can sleep walk through their jobs, listening to their favorite tracks or talking with their friends.

So you see, Heracitusstudent's actual view of reality is even more one dimensional than my own. It's a world where ppl in accounting have boring jobs but those in hi-tech are running exciting experiments, every day. As time goes by, I'm finding more and more engineers who'd wished that their jobs were easy and turnkey. Part of the reason for that is that the joy/excitement/adventure of the hard work in *tech* had faded, when they realize that it's just another job but with greater margin for error, and with management breathing down their necks.

Rin says

Just to add to my theme ... I'm pretty sure that during college/grad school, an electronics engineer was probably not thinking that his career was to generate flat files of a fixed format, for oracle utilities like sqlloader, to populate a database.

It was an open secret by the 1970s: engineers did jobs having nothing to do with what they studied in school.

It is worse now, but only in magnitude. Engineering has long had a low 15-year retention rate against all other professions. It's the fault of professors for pretending otherwise, and the fault of engineering students for not doing their career homework.

It's the same as recent college graduates going to work in Hollywood and failing to notice that there is nobody in the profession over 50, and few over 40, and believing it will be a lifelong career.

Jesus, bring up Hillary Clinton and see what happens. Two serious comments if you are lucky, and 8 comments on hirsute lesbians, sucking bankster cock, etc.

-------------

You want equal opportunity, you got it. Bring up Obama and you get the exact same thing.

HydroCabron says

It was an open secret by the 1970s: engineers did jobs having nothing to do with what they studied in school.

The 70s were a bit different. Back then, there were companies like Digital Equipment Corporation, which did R&D in actual technical areas. If I recall my childhood correctly, there were many adults who were satisfied in their careers at DEC during the 70s and 80s. Granted, not all companies were great places to work but at least there was a sense of connection between the applied sciences and work.

HydroCabron says

It is worse now, but only in magnitude. Engineering has long had a low 15-year retention rate against all other professions. It's the fault of professors for pretending otherwise, and the fault of engineering students for not doing their career homework.

Starting in the 90s, with the ever rising number of postdocs, the collapse of big science projects like the Supercollider, etc, things went into free fall. Many of those physicists and electronics engineers went into IT programming, esp during the DotCom era, and so forth. As time went by, whenever the chance arose, ppl would shift into managerial or business roles within their respective sector.

What percentage of STEM jobs come from government spending?

Rin says

I'm pretty sure that during college/grad school, an electronics engineer was probably not thinking that his career was to generate flat files of a fixed format, for oracle utilities like sqlloader, to populate a database.

Right, because Rin's idea of what engineers do is populate databases using sql loader. Maybe a newbie will do it for a few months. He can also write scripts, or small programs until he knows enough and starts seeing what is possible, can propose new ideas, new ways to do things, or learn new things in other areas. This is not to say that there are no execution phase where you just go and do things - and it would be ridiculous to be so pompous as to call it a Leonardo DaVinci lifestyle - but these are generally intellectually stimulating and engaging tasks. And from there, you *can* grow to create your own products, or into management, etc...

By contrast, an accountant can and should sleep walk through their jobs, because of the utterly boring and repetitive nature of job. nothing new will be learned and the same routine executed for years, with very little new avenues. You better have a good interests outside your job that will justify writing off 1/3 of your life, just because there was less to learn and could get paid above average. And then you die.
But hey... it takes all sorts to make a world.

Rin says

I have roughly three dozen(+) Harvard/MIT/Ivy/elite science/engineering grads on LinkedIn alone, who're now CFAs, CPAs, MBAs

If they're all like you, I'm not surprised. But as I said, it takes all sorts to make a world.

Rin says

One of my good friends in college, a triple, not even a double major, in Physics/Chemistry/Applied Math, had become an Oracle DBA with a 3.9 GPA and two undergraduate publications.

He has to be a complete idiot to become a dba with that kind of a qualification. Sure some jobs in IT are like being accountants. DBA is one of them.

Rin says

I don't know what imaginary world you live in where ppl stay in the sciences long term.

I didn't say they have to stay in pure tech long term, but they have possibilities even in sales or management way beyond what someone trained as an accountant would have.

Rin says

Did you not see the reduction of headcount in all the industry labs, from DEC, DuPont, Dow, Merck, Bell Labs, GE, etc, during your lifetime? Did you think that those R&D functions magically re-appeared, outside of business/consulting roles?

Are you under the illusion that the number of tech positions is shrinking?
If anything engineers are taking over the world.

Heraclitusstudent says

How about asking them about the future of accountant and dba careers? And yes, hedge fund managers?

These are likely jobs that will become either fully automated in a few years, or so near fully automated that a monkey could do it. Great careers!

If your friend is so smart why is he doing the dba job for $100K rather than the automation of it for much more?

In time, we'll all be out of a job, including you, the one who can perhaps do Laplace transforms in his sleep, since you seem to have some inflated sense of your own intelligence.

I'm cashing out this year. Can you say the same thing? Or will you be taking your R&D skills to Asia?

Rin says

I'm cashing out this year. Can you say the same thing? Or will you be taking your R&D skills to Asia?

No and No. I'll continue to do what I like to do.

Heraclitusstudent says

If they're all like you, I'm not surprised.

Poisoning the well is a sign of a weak position.

Heraclitusstudent says

He has to be a complete idiot to become a dba with that kind of a qualification. Sure some jobs in IT are like being accountants. DBA is one of them.

Top DBAs can make over $120,000/yr and are worth every penny. You should show more respect.

Dan, why do you think that when I'd asked this troll, what he'd do, with taking his so-called R&D skills to Asia, he's only response was ...

Heraclitusstudent says

No and No. I'll continue to do what I like to do.

Yes, this is a troll and like I'd told him in my earlier thread on dropping relationships in America, that he's a total and complete loser and can go screw himself. Really, fuck him. I'd made well over a few million in finance and would never trade that, for being some academic postdoc or being in some lowly lab in corporate America.

He'd never seen 2K+ engineering jobs sent to Asia (see DuPont labs) and is picking on my summa cum laude poor triple major friend, who's actually got a stable DBA job, earning a comfortable six figure, so that he can study chemistry/physics/math on his free time, w/o wondering whether or not his postdoc grant would get renewed.

Dan8267 says

Heraclitusstudent says

He has to be a complete idiot to become a dba with that kind of a qualification. Sure some jobs in IT are like being accountants. DBA is one of them.

Top DBAs can make over $120,000/yr and are worth every penny. You should show more respect.

This is so true. My friend is well regarded among Oracle professionals in his area and he's always getting calls from headhunters.

In contrast, many dungeon dwellers in some R&D function for XYZ labs are praying that some national lab will take pity and hire 'em for a full time secure position via the DoD or DoE.

But don't worry, Heraclitusstudent, with his 220 IQ and photographic memory, will always be employed because he's *with the client* or some other bullshit role which he believes is not replaceable.

Call it Crazy says

You forgot narcissistic psychopath! Make sure to include this guy!

And once more the idiot proves my point.

Dan8267 says

Truth is I'm thinking of taking a hiatus from PatNet -- I can hear the conservative slimeballs cheering.

I'm just laughing at the emotional desperation you exhibit by proclaiming the need for a break to everyone. Lol it's the Internet, you are anonymous, and in the grand scheme of things your opinion is utterly meaningless. Wow I could have only dreamed of another poster besides Marcus having an emotional breakdown right before our eyes.

And then the narcisim of a public announcement...thinking that ANYONE gives a rats ass about you. Lol. For all you know everyone here has 5 different accounts and mocks you relentlessly.

While its fun calling you an America hater, don't let the door hit you in your frequently used ass

dodgerfanjohn says

I'm just laughing at the emotional desperation you exhibit by proclaiming the need for a break to everyone

Exhaustion at your stupidity is not emotional desperation. You think too highly of yourself.

Dan8267 says

Exhaustion at your stupidity is not emotional desperation. You think too highly of yourself.

Oh you are still here...