patrick.net

btw, there used to be a substantial christian minority of about 10% among the palestinians, mostly greek orthodox i think.

in general in the middle east, the christian minority is a remnant of the original ethnic group of the area and maintains the old pre-arabic language as a religious language. so you have the copts, maronites, syrian christians, chaldeans, etc. they are the remnants of the groups which did not convert to islam because they tended to be from the merchant classes and were able to pay the jizya and negotiate with muslim leaders to keep their businesses.

the majority of those palestinian christians have left since 1948, so now it's down to like 1% or so remaining. they left because:

1. they could, having more money than average muslims
2. islam has a weird tribal mentality going, where they just assume that christians are spying for the west, so groups like isis single them out for slaughter. the money thing is probably a motive too, where local muslims get the businesses after the christian owners have been killed by isis. that's how it worked when the turks slaughtered the armenians around WWI.

but it is probably true that middle eastern christians assimilate into europe and the US much better than muslims do. they are just closer culturally to the west because of their religion and generally higher level of education.

thunderlips11 says

Bonus Question: How many Jews were expelled by MENA countries during and after the Israel Crisis?

But they had a country to go to, and the reaction to the Jewish Palestinian land grab by the Arab states was predictable. But it was a reaction to an illegitimate action. The poor Palestinians who have paid for the sins of the PLO is a bit different. This post made me review the PLO/Jordanian Govt.-Hashemite monarchy war. The monarchy took no prisoners once there was an open and armed revolt. Yes, sort of like Assad from what I can tell.

To re-create a country that had not existed since Roman times, and to have blonde Europeans claim to have a right to that land is a bit too much. Hey, let's bring back Samaria. We can also use a few good Samaritans.

thunderlips11 says

Bonus Question: How many Jews were expelled by MENA countries during and after the Israel Crisis?

I could look it up, best guess probably close to a million sephardi and mizrahi moved to Israel in the first 20-25 years from the various arab countries. I don't think many were actually expelled. There was lots of leftover nazi antisemitism in the arab world after WWII so most jews chose to go to Israel rather than be harassed constantly. Oddly enough the largest jewish population in the mena countries today is in Iran, which isn't arab.

Blurtman says

This post made me review the PLO/Jordanian Govt.-Hashemite monarchy war. The monarchy took no prisoners once there was an open and armed revolt. Yes, sort of like Assad from what I can tell.

But the other side is that the PLO was stopping cars, searching people, literally taxing the population, and taking over from the government.

Blurtman says

To re-create a country that had not existed since Roman times, and to have blonde Europeans claim to have a right to that land is a bit too much. Hey, let's bring back Samaria. We can also use a few good Samaritans.

True, but there never has been an independent Palestinian state, not even in ancient history. The last time there was an independent state in that area, it was Israel. Otherwise it's always been part of an Empire, but it's never been an independent Arab Muslim state not for 5 minutes.

Palestinians have a state, is the 2/3 of Ottoman Palestine that was made into Transjordan. The West Bank prior to '67 was Jordanian, with the Jordanian flag, Jordanian officials, Jordanian rule.

Here's the deal, the majority of Palestinians reject the two-state solution, they want only Arab Palestine from Sea to River. The majority of Palestinians want to expel all the Jews, and even if they didn't, Palestinians would become the majority and they are the most Jewish Hating people in the world. The only things Palestinians are split about is whether they will kill all the Jews, or expel all the Jews once they take over all of Israel.

Hamas' official policy is no Israel, only Palestine.

As for give peace a chance, check out Lebanon. The Civil War ended because the Arabs terrorized enough Christians to flee the country and gained an overwhelming majority, not because they sat around the campfire and smoked the peace pipe.

"Why should I be an oppressed minority in your country, when you can be an oppressed minority in Mine?"

Putting Israel where it was was stupid, It should have been carved out of Bavaria. But it's there, and there is no peace possible without the extermination of Israel and probably it's population. So that's that. Given that Muslims refuse to assimiliate even when you bend over backwards with welfare, free housing, free education, etc. among a much larger population of non-Arabs in Europe... what possible hope is there for Israel?

Here is a chart for those of you keeping score at home...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/07/17/the_middle_east_friendship_chart.html

And that doesn't even show ethnicity, Russia, religion, WTF

This might be out of date, the bottom row is wrong, the US and Al Qaeda should now have "It's Complicated" face due to the US support of the Al Qaeda Led-Alliance of "moderate rebels" in Syria.

thunderlips11 says

This might be out of date, the bottom row is wrong, the US and Al Qaeda should now have "It's Complicated" face due to the US support of the Al Qaeda Led-Alliance of "moderate rebels" in Syria.

Yes and they need to throw in the Hillary factor as well.

The only cleansing needed is Republican & Democratic voters from Merika.

A true conservative loves dependability.

HEY YOU says

The only cleansing needed is Republican & Democratic voters from Merika.

HEY YOU says

The only cleansing needed is Republican & Democratic voters from Merika.

We just need to shut off the spigot.

thunderlips11 says

True, but there never has been an independent Palestinian state

Yes, but people did live there for quite a while. And now they don't, and the process is continuing. They have a more legitimate claim to the land than folks from Europe. Jews also lived in Palestine, and did not have their own country.

Blurtman says

Yes, but people did live there for quite a while. And now they don't, and the process is continuing. They have a more legitimate claim to the land than folks from Europe. Jews also lived in Palestine, and did not have their own country.

Well, most of them were serfs working for absentee Turkish landlords, who were the real losers when Israel declared itself in 1947.

Possession is 90% of the law. The British created Jordan from 2/3rd of the Palestinian Territory taken from the Ottoman Empire, the Palestinians prior to 1948 refused to negotiate any division and insisted on the whole thing. They've been offered the entire West Bank and Gaza before + Compensation and rejected it every time. It is what it is.

Anything but returning the West Bank to Jordan and Gaza to Egypt is going to result in a second Holocaust. There's been plenty of sectarian violence between Muslims and even Muslims of same sect, but different ethnicity, to demonstrate there's absolutely no chance, none, that a single Israel-Palestine is ever going to work. Both Hamas and the PLO have stated that if they were to accept a two-state solution, it would only be a cease fire for a few years, maybe a generation, before they would re-ignite the war for all of Palestine.

Polls of the Palestinians themselves reject the two-state solution.

Israels only hope is to get Jordan to take over the West Bank, or go all Croatians in Krajina when the West is distracted with a big conflict of their own doing, like a Russo-NATO or internal ethnic bloodbath.

Like I said, Israel in Israel was a dumb idea, but that's the way the cookie crumbled. It is what it is. Until the Palestinians get realistic and try to practice the art of the possible, nothing can be done. As is said in the old Civilization games after discovering Fission...

thunderlips11 says

Here's the deal, the majority of Palestinians reject the two-state solution, they want only Arab Palestine from Sea to River. The majority of Palestinians want to expel all the Jews, and even if they didn't, Palestinians would become the majority and they are the most Jewish Hating people in the world. The only things Palestinians are split about is whether they will kill all the Jews, or expel all the Jews once they take over all of Israel.

Hamas' official policy is no Israel, only Palestine.

Gary, Tovobot, and the others just don't get this.

bgamall4 says

The Palestinians owned it all in the first place, Einstein. Actually, Einstein knew this.

Native Americans owned all of America. Gary, you are occupying stolen property - theft - pure and simple.
You are evil. Please get the hell out.

thunderlips11 says

How did Russians born in Lithuania in 1988, descended from the 4th Generation of Russians living in Lithuania, lose Lithuanian citizenship?

Easy: by refusing to learn the language and passing the test. It takes special kind of stupid to live somewhere "for 4 generations" (more likely 1-2 in reality) and not learn the local language.

bgamall4 says

750 thousand people were booted. Fook you Thunderass. This is theft, pure and simple.

How many Jews were expelled from MENA countries after 1948?

Straw Man says

Easy: by refusing to learn the language and passing the test. It takes special kind of stupid to live somewhere "for 4 generations" (more likely 1-2 in reality) and not learn the local language.

Right, you can revoke Citizenship generations later, retroactively. Perfectly normal. I'm sure it would be perfectly fine to take away the Citizenship of Miami Cubans if their ancestors they couldn't pass a College Graduate-level English Written and Spoken Test despite previously having citizenship for 3 or 4 generations. Like the old Literacy Tests in the South, the difficulty of the exam is tailored to how badly the authorities want to prevent citizenship and voting.

Strategist says

bgamall4 says

The Palestinians owned it all in the first place, Einstein. Actually, Einstein knew this.

Native Americans owned all of America. Gary, you are occupying stolen property - theft - pure and simple.

You are evil. Please get the hell out.

Hey Gary, we know you are there. Crawl out from under the bed and address the comments like a man.

Oh Jew! Oh American! Oh Russian! Enemies of the Islamic Kaliphate!

Preaching from the Al-Aqsa Mosque (aka Temple Mount with a big fat mosque on it just like they build big fat mosques over Churches and Hindu Temples as a sign they have conquered):

https://www.0oEwT5CjC_Q

"Oh Allah, let us eliminate the Jews" - literal quote.

https://www.coffeeandcovid.com/p/jilted-friday-october-13-2023-c-and

The Israeli war has not progressed much since yesterday. The biggest news yesterday was Israel issued its largest evacuation notice yet, affecting around a million Palestinians in north Gaza, which suggests an imminent ground action.

The United Nations immediately demanded that Israel revoke the evacuation notice, arguing a mass relocation “would be calamitous.”

Israel’s opponents are scoffing just where are the Palestinians supposed to go?, since it appears nobody wants them. At least, none of the otherwise outraged Muslim countries in the area have so far offered to shelter any Palestinian refugees.

If you like, contrast that fact with Western Europe’s open door policy for Ukrainian refugees when that war began. So.

indigenous says

Here is a chart for those of you keeping score at home...

http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/07/17/the_middle_east_friendship_chart.html

And that doesn't even show ethnicity, Russia, religion, WTF

The US works with Al Qaeda and ISIS. It's just supposed to be a secret, however the Clinton emails expose it.

https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2023/10/17/neither-jordan-or-egypt-will-accept-refugees-fleeing-gaza-strip/

Strategist says

Native Americans owned all of America.

If you can take it and hold it, it’s yours. Same as it ever was.

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Strategist says

Native Americans owned all of America.

If you can take it and hold it, it’s yours. Same as it ever was.

Why drives me nuts about Israel is all the propaganda around it.

The people who control Israel have no connection to the land at all, historically. They are Europeans and Russians, and they conquered it. They are a racially based society, and non Jewish people in the society are second class status. They are indeed an apartheid government, and they create a lot of pointless problems in the region which has plenty of problems to begin with.

richwicks says

The people who control Israel have no connection to the land at all, historically. They are Europeans and Russians

That's not true. European Jews have significant Middle Eastern ancestry, unlike other Europeans.

Just look at them. It's pretty obvious.

Great thread. So much info about all the intricacies of the region. Such a rainbow of rich cultures!

I do not give a fuck. Stay the fuck out of it.

I agree. The Middle East is not America. We should stay entirely out of that conflict.

Patrick says

richwicks says

The people who control Israel have no connection to the land at all, historically. They are Europeans and Russians

That's not true. European Jews have significant Middle Eastern ancestry, unlike other Europeans.

Just look at them. It's pretty obvious.

Like who? William Shatner? He's Jewish. Look at how fucking white they are, in a desert? They aren't Middle Eastern. they are not the descendants of the Jews of the Bible.

It's a mix, but the Middle Eastern component is there.

I've read about this stuff for years.

Patrick says

It's a mix, but the Middle Eastern component is there.

I've read about this stuff for years.

Why do you assume what you're reading is true?

Why doesn't Jordan want Palestinians?

Search "Black September". Something that Ryan Dawson's "Exhaustive MENA knowledge" omits regularly.

Why doesn't Lebanon want Palestinians?

Search "Damour" or "Lebanese Civil War +Causes +Church of the Deliverence"

Egypt, @Patrick mentioned above. Every time Egypt opens the border, even in a limited way to allow Gazans to visit markets, a few weeks later tourists get killed.

@richwicks I challenge you to find me any evidence which shows that Ashkenazi Jews do not have a large Middle Eastern genetic origin, since you're the one asserting that.

Even just looking at paternal haplogroups, you see that the most common Ashkenazi Jewish Y-chromosome haplotype is type J, as are most Arabs, while the typical European is R1b (like me, with paternal ancestry from Ireland). Russians are usually R1a.

Patrick says

I challenge you to find me any evidence which shows that Ashkenazi Jews do not have a large Middle Eastern genetic origin, since you're the one asserting that.

What's "large"?

They are OBVIOUSLY European. It frustrates me that people will believe lies before they believe their eyes now.

If you're not going to debate in good faith, it's pointless to debate.

Is there no stereotype of Jewish appearance?

Patrick says

If you're not going to debate in good faith, it's pointless to debate.

Is there no stereotype of Jewish appearance?

I'm not debating. Look at how goddamned pale their skin is. They're as white as you and me. They marry as an ingroup, so naturally there's going to be repetition of features.

MisdemeanorRebel says

Right, you can revoke Citizenship generations later, retroactively.

Nothing to revoke - the people we're talking about never had Lithuanian citizenship in the first place. All they had is Soviet citizenship. Which they still can claim any moment they want (and probably did in secret).

Lithuania was annexed by the USSR in 1940 and flooded with transplants from the East while tens of thousands of natives were imprisoned in or deported to Siberia. When Lithuanian state was restored in 1990 they naturally decided to not automatically grant citizenship to the transplants but left the door open to these who would demonstrate geniune interest in integration - learning the fucking language and taking the fucking citizenship exam.

PS. If I was a King of Lithuania I'd kick them all the fuck out to their native Northern Hamas and offered to apply for entry visa and residency permit on case-by-case basis, but these Lithuanians are softies.

Patrick says

richwicks says

The people who control Israel have no connection to the land at all, historically. They are Europeans and Russians

That's not true. European Jews have significant Middle Eastern ancestry, unlike other Europeans.

Just look at them. It's pretty obvious.

Also note that quite a few Palestinians look very European, especially when young.

HeadSet says

Also note that quite a few Palestinians look very European, especially when young.

Perhaps.

At this point, I'm hoping Israel blows up the Al-Aqsa Mosque and rebuilds their stupid temple. This is supposed to bring their Messiah back and end the world. When it doesn't happen, maybe these nutcases will start acting like sane adults.

I'm just tired of this conflict. It will never end. Zionists are a bunch of Jewish bigots, and the Palestinians hate them because they've been fucked over by them for 70 years. There's no reconciliation possible.

richwicks says

At this point, I'm hoping Israel blows up the Al-Aqsa Mosque

Screw that: 50mt ground bursts at Mecca and Medina are what is needed.