patrick.net

P N Dr Lo R says

1972

Is that supposed to be an answer?

Heraclitusstudent says

Is that supposed to be an answer?

It reminds me a lot of what certain people were prophysying in the 70's: "The Population Bomb", "The Limits to Growth", "The Greening of America", "The Late, Great Planet Earth". It was also a time of bad economy and a new crisis every few weeks. 600 years from now really doesn't worry me.

P N Dr Lo R says

600 years from now really doesn't worry me.

In other words these people in 1970 were absolutely right except your time horizon is so absurdly narrow you think you have the luxury not to care.

Only it doesn't take a genius to see that arable earth is in limited supply, water tables are overdrawn, fish population are collapsing, pollution accumulates.
Even at 7.3 billions people things are starting to get awfully tight. And even at 1%/yrs, we are still on a trajectory for 17 billions people in 2100, in 85 yrs.

I.e. It won't wait 600 yrs, or 300, or 85yrs. We are heading toward catastrophic collapse by the end of this century.
Of course you still don't care because you are an incredibly cynical person who would rather sacrifice the planet than deviate a iota from your "way of life" and ideology.

Heraclitusstudent says

The idea that population can grow... let's say 1.3% / year indefinitely is patently stupid.

that's why nobody is saying that except for you, who is making shit up to fit your delusional BULLSHIT apocalyptic fantasy jerk-off genocidal orgasm. leave it to a PSYCHOPATHIC SELF-LOATHING ASSHOLE leftist to suggest the only solution is to neuter and/or terminate humans en masse.

the world population growth rate has been in decline since the 1960's and is currently half that rate - it will half again by 2050 to be around 0.5% per annum. not to mention any unforeseen natural disaster or disease to contribute to the ratio, or the inability of governments to support welfare leeches who multiply to obtain funding and housing entitlements AND THOSE BLOOD SUCKERS VOTE DEMOCRAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCK OFF YOU PARASITE. please put a bullet in your head to help your own cause. sick motherfucker.

landtof says

the world population growth rate has been in decline since the 1960's and is currently half that rate - it will half again by 2050 to be around 0.5% per annum.

That's one possible scenario, in which population levels off at 10 billion.

But those who thought in the 70s, "gee it might be nice if population leveled off at say 5.5 billion" weren't wrong for thinking about that, even if stopping the growth was impossible for reasons that are complex, but mostly it's nature and human nature. Maybe it's true that there is and was no option to simply letting nature take it's course, but that doesn't mean that raising the alarms about what it means, and actually thinking about what it means is or was wrong.

Who knows, maybe letting nature take it's course guarantees our extinction, where as some kind of planning would have or will eventually avoid that.

The only reason we even were able to grow at the rate we have was because of human ingenuity. Surely if we wanted, human ingenuity could have been focused on leveling population growth at a level that would have been sustainable for thousands or 10s of thousands of years. Maybe that's still possible, but it's clear a lot of damage will be done first that might have been avoided.

MAking these observations and thinking about it and talking about it, is what some morons call being a "blood sucking democrat." Well okay. I call it having an IQ over 80.

landtof says

SELF-LOATHING ASSHOLE

Actually it's guys like this guy (probably CIC/IRONMAN alt account) that are self loathing assholes. If you hate yourself, then you hate humanity, and you don't care if we destroy the planet and ourselves in the process.

landtof says

leave it to a PSYCHOPATHIC SELF-LOATHING ASSHOLE leftist to suggest the only solution is to neuter and/or terminate humans en masse.

Leave it to a semi-retarded moronic right winger to assume that this is what those who were concerned about population in the 70s (or those who are now) were/are thinking.

P N Dr Lo R says

Each is a comprehensive belief system, an instruction sheet on how to live, eat and reproduce, a story of how man fell and how he might be redeemed, a tale of impending crisis that’s also a moral crucible.

yup, exactly.

i did a tour of the old soviet union in college just before it collapsed, and was struck by how exactly lenin replaced the jesus of my catholic school time. his picture was in all classrooms, his sayings were holy, and it would be dangerous to question them.

people are pretty consistent, even when they try to be different.

yup, exactly.

i did a tour of the old soviet union in college just before it collapsed, and was struck by how exactly lenin replaced the jesus of my catholic school time. his picture was in all classrooms, his sayings were holy, and it would be dangerous to question them.

people are pretty consistent, even when they try to be different.

With the difference that religion in the West is largely voluntary these days, not sure about Lenin back then ;)

Heraclitusstudent says

Surely, even the densest republican imbecile can start seeing this is going nowhere. We are heading toward a wall at exponential speed.

Certainly not the White/Caucasian people, they have been declining. I'm not necessarily against de-incentivizing too many kids (not by violent force though, take the welfare away), but the leftists are the ones who welcome our future over-religious overlords (breeding like rabbits) with open arms and taxpayer funds while cursing the receding christian tradition and culture. Leftists in their current form are the much greater menace to society. Good article btw.

marcus says

Actually it's guys like this guy (probably CIC/IRONMAN alt account)

patrick can verify i have nothing to do with ironman. you're grasping at straws, trollface.

marcus says

Leave it to a semi-retarded moronic right winger to assume that this is what those who were concerned about population in the 70s (or those who are now) were/are thinking.

marcus says

Surely if we wanted, human ingenuity could have been focused on leveling population growth

ladies and gentlemen, i give you your moron.

landtof says

marcus says

Surely if we wanted, human ingenuity could have been focused on leveling population growth

ladies and gentlemen, i give you your moron.

You don't even understand what I mean here. I'm not saying that we should have. I'm only saying that if we wanted to we could. That would have required enough of a will to determine whether such measures would be worthwhile and it would have also required some sort of world government or global cooperation which probably isn't possible until much later when conditions are far far worse. IT's kind of like the individual that abuses themselves terribly, and only quits smoking, drinking or over eating when they are dying.

I know, I know. You only see one way. Let nature take its course. I'm sure you think the issue will take care of itself through wars or plagues or whatever.

The only moron is the one of us that's too stupid and close minded to even consider the possibilities. And who resorts to this kind of bullshit first.

landtof says

your delusional BULLSHIT apocalyptic fantasy jerk-off genocidal orgasm

landtof says

leave it to a PSYCHOPATHIC SELF-LOATHING ASSHOLE leftist to suggest the only solution is to neuter and/or terminate humans en masse.

landtof says

FUCK OFF YOU PARASITE. please put a bullet in your head to help your own cause. sick motherfucker.

Welcome to ignore, you pathetic dimbulb.

P N Dr Lo R says

To wit, what explains the fatal attraction of the secular mind to the politics of impending apocalypse?

Do you know how many right wingers are also perpetually convinced we're facing an apocalypse?

Look around this site, for starters: Fed, debt, "kids these days - we're doomed" - it's all here, except for the "Jesus is coming back in the next 18 months - get right with God" crowd - maybe they're too ashamed to own that belief publicly here.

Biologists will tell you that, independently of the warming, something is definitely up. They could be part of the massive, incredibly organized conspiracy to defraud us all, but I know plenty of biologists of all political stripes who believe we've precipitated an extinction event. Probably not as bad as the Permian-Triassic - cold comfort.

The Earth recovers from extinction events. The problem is that it takes about 10 million years to recover the fumble, reset the clock, run the huddle and make it to the line of scrimmage.

Meanwhile, all across America, conservatives are losing sleep because the dollar has lost 97% of its value since 1913.

You can't make this up.

marcus says

landtof says

the world population growth rate has been in decline since the 1960's and is currently half that rate - it will half again by 2050 to be around 0.5% per annum.

That's one possible scenario, in which population levels off at 10 billion.

Or 12 Billions. The idiot won't mention that to the extent that growth rate went down it is due in part the policies the article criticizes.
It's the typical attitude you can expect from the WSJ: clinging greedily to every shred of economic growth regardless of the cost, in a world where growth is becoming ever more difficult. Yes, let's deny that anything could possibly affect the world. Just look down. Don't look what's coming. Because gee... the perspective of changing anything is absolutely, totally intolerable.

Let me tell you the future: there won't be a mass extinction. The next thing will be AI. Growth will decouple from human population, capitalism will become obsolete, the WSJ will go bankrupt, and authorities will embrace policies to limit population.
And it will be much better this way.

Heraclitusstudent says

The idiot won't mention that to the extent that growth rate went down it is due in part the policies the article criticizes.

oh, you just love making up your own shit don't you.

Heraclitusstudent says

authorities will embrace policies to limit population.

And it will be much better this way.

PSYCHOPATH!

Heraclitusstudent says

authorities will embrace policies to limit population.

And it will be much better this way.

Better for who?

You got yours, but those icky brown 3rd world people will be subject to forced sterilizations and draconian carbon reduction schemes.

socal2 says

You got yours, but those icky brown 3rd world people will be subject to forced sterilizations and draconian carbon reduction schemes.

Better for everyone that lives on this planet.
Besides I never said forced sterilization (or forced anything else) is the way to go.

You're merging two problems.

Obviously we need to limit, if not severely reduce population.

But that Chinese chose infanticide as a response because they all wanted boys, is a completely separate problem.

I'm for a 1 child per family aggregate approach.

That is, if a family wants to have 5 children, and they find 5 people willing to be childless "aunts" then go ahead, get the IUD and let those who are really qualified to be parents do the job.

I would also reward low birthrate families with all kinds of free tuition and tax credits and even housing as a positive incentive.

landtof says

that's why nobody is saying that except for you, who is making shit up to fit your delusional BULLSHIT apocalyptic fantasy jerk-off genocidal orgasm. leave it to a PSYCHOPATHIC SELF-LOATHING ASSHOLE leftist to suggest the only solution is to neuter and/or terminate humans en masse.

the world population growth rate has been in decline since the 1960's and is currently half that rate - it will half again by 2050 to be around 0.5% per annum. not to mention any unforeseen natural disaster or disease to contribute to the ratio, or the inability of governments to support welfare leeches who multiply to obtain funding and housing entitlements AND THOSE BLOOD SUCKERS VOTE DEMOCRAT !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

FUCK OFF YOU PARASITE. please put a bullet in your head to help your own cause. sick motherfucker.

Christ, did someone forget to take their meds again?

New Renter says

Christ, did someone forget to take their meds again?

It's a culture problem and it's already being addressed. Or haven't you noticed that American culture is changing at an ever increasing rate? We are in the middle of a giant experiment to determine what is the most optimal
Culture for our current era. Multiculturalism aside (way aside, it's a propaganda distraction) culture is the essential force to regulate all the necessary factors in society.

Some cultures aren't beneficial for their adherents in this era, those cultures will fall by the wayside as their adherents convert to more appropriate cultures. It's happening already, as can be easily seen with the conversion of marriage morals to include gay marriage. It has to continue if society is to move forward to embrace the chances technology has wrought.

How about a chart showing post puberty male-female imbalance for nations initiating wars?

P N Dr Lo R says

a male-female birth imbalance of 118-100,

John Bailo says

I would also reward low birthrate families with all kinds of free tuition and tax credits and even housing as a positive incentive.

You realize that most Western nations in the West (and Japan) have government incentives to have MORE children since their birthrates are already so low? Why do you think Merkel in Germany and the other EU elites are allowing millions of Muslim/Arab refugees into their countries?

I don't think we need more people on the planet, but the West at least needs to maintain our population size to pay our massive entitlement Ponzi schemes.

socal2 says

but the West at least needs to maintain our population size to pay our massive entitlement Ponzi schemes.

Not to nitpick, but the phrase Ponzi scheme has been butchered so badly to where most don't even understand what it is.

By definition, if something works with a stable population, it's NOT a Ponzi scheme.

socal2 says

Why do you think Merkel in Germany and the other EU elites are allowing millions of Muslim/Arab refugees into their countries?

Most leaders today WANT their population to grow, for economic reasons:
Growth = {population growth} + {productivity growth}
They need growth so desperately that they are willing to bring millions of foreigners in a country to the point of destroying the local culture, all in the name of temporary growth.

The emergence of AI will change this radically, because {productivity growth} will be so high that population won't matter anymore. Robots will produce to pay for entitlements.

You will see western leaders suddenly become anti-immigration. Frontiers will be enforced by shooting on sight.

tatupu70 says

By definition, if something works with a stable population, it's NOT a Ponzi scheme.

But everyone knows we don't have the same worker/retiree ratio that we once did when our entitlement programs were first created.

socal2 says

But everyone knows we don't have the same worker/retiree ratio that we once did when our entitlement programs were first created.

Yep--that's why we have an issue with social security as the boomers retire. Not because it's a Ponzi scheme.

tatupu70 says

Yep--that's why we have an issue with social security as the boomers retire. Not because it's a Ponzi scheme.

It's still a Ponzi scheme if we don't have enough people paying in to support the beneficiaries.

Social Security started with roughly 40 workers per retiree. Now it is down to less than 3 workers per retiree and the retirees are living much longer.

We either need to increase our working population or reduce the number of beneficiaries.

socal2 says

It's still a Ponzi scheme if we don't have enough people paying in to support the beneficiaries.

No, it's really not. A Ponzi scheme is a very well defined scam. Social security doesn't fit in the definition.

socal2 says

Social Security started with roughly 40 workers per retiree. Now it is down to less than 3 workers per retiree and the retirees are living much longer.

We either need to increase our working population or reduce the number of beneficiaries.

Or some of many, many other recommendations. The solutions are well known-it's just up to our politicians to have the will to implement them.

Ironman says

Why don't you tell us what they are.

I know it's too much to ask for you to do your own research. Get rid of the max out on social security withholding. Reduce yearly increases in payouts. Means test the payouts. Are a few of many, many potential changes.

1984 is sooo 2014.
Private services are automatically collecting plates numbers on the freeway. Your computer is under surveillance. Microsoft collects text typed under its OS. Facebook supervise your social life. Google browsers and phones are listening to conversations in your living room. Apple iphones probably as well. All this probably end-up into some NSA database. In some cases webcams have been used by authorities without the knowledge of the owner of the computer. They can probably easily be used in that way at will.

Oppression and war?

Ironman says

Why?? Someone pays in for 50 years, doesn't overspend during their working years, saves money responsibly for retirement, and you want to take away their S.S. that they earned?

While someone else lives paycheck to paycheck and doesn't save and you want to give them full s.s. because they didn't plan for retirement?

Really??

You really are a fucking socialist, aren't you??

You are a complete idiot. I wasn't saying I was for or against any of those solutions. You asked what the other potential solutions were so I presented a few for you.

Heraclitusstudent says

Most leaders today WANT their population to grow, for economic reasons:

Growth = {population growth} + {productivity growth}

They need growth so desperately that they are willing to bring millions of foreigners in a country to the point of destroying the local culture, all in the name of temporary growth.

Or do they bring the immigrants in because they want cheap over abundant labor and chaos, both of which make it easier to control the political needs of the masses. Maybe to them, destroying cultures is a feature and not a bug.

The fear and chaos create a lot of future Fox news lovers or whatever the equivalent is in European countries. Meanwhile they cause terrorism to occur against the west and you have even more fear in the population that can be used to easily manipulate the masses.

Or perhaps I've been listening to too much Noam Chomsky. His views do seem to make sense out of otherwise illogical behaviors of world governments and leaders.

marcus says

Or do they bring the immigrants in because they want cheap over abundant labor and chaos, both of which make it easier to control the political needs of the masses. Maybe to them, destroying cultures is a feature and not a bug.

I think it's a bug caused by their overwhelming focus on economic issues. Cheap labor helps productivity. More consumers help consumption. That's all they see. That's all they care about.

I think they lost track of what a population of a country is. A population is not a random group of people. It's a group of people with shared beliefs, values, language and culture. If any person coming with a suitcase is part of your group then you are not a population.