patrick.net

JJJ the EPA exists to regulate the competition out of business and limit our land rights, they don't do shit else. Follow the money, or just look at the Colorado river again.
NuttBoxer says

"When is the last time a tree did you any favors?"

Ceffer says

"When is the last time a tree did you any favors?"

This morning when dropped a deuce

"You haven't responded back with a single thing that you do that shows you care about the environment, I've responded with multiple. You are the person I meant to insult in every post here, glad I drew your hypocritical, do nothing, wasteful ass."

Of course not, you idiot. Me composting isn't going to stop WR Grace from creating environmental wastelands. Or the Cuyahoga river from becoming flammable from pollution from industry. The EPA isn't about individuals. It's about corporations. How do you not know that???

"JJJ the EPA exists to regulate the competition out of business and limit our land rights, they don't do shit else. Follow the money, or just look at the Colorado river again."

So, how does the government benefit when companies go out of business? How is that in their best interest?

The EPA is exactly like the police force: it has power to enforce necessary laws and regulations, and it is made up of people who are often greedy, venal, corrupt, and avaricious. We don't abolish the police because a cop committed a crime or abuse of power, we appoint a regulatory agency to police the police. That's what is missing with the EPA, and that's how we fix (not abolish!) that agency.

indigenous says

bob2356 says

How does an individual hire lawyers to take on a huge multinational corporation.

Yes who will build the roads blah blah

Here is one, didn't even have to go back a decade, is the Burlington Northern big enough for you?

http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/11/06/burlington-northern-railroad-settles-million-dollar-lawsuit-for-burning-homes/

Maybe you should go read the case. The settlement was 23 families and 2 large corporations that were suing BN. Not exaclty a single individual taking on exxon, ge, or the koch bros.

No burlington northern isn't very big at all. The big multinationals could buy and sell BN out of petty cash.

"You are the person I meant to insult in every post here, glad I drew your hypocritical, do nothing, wasteful ass."

Just curious--why do you think this?

bob2356 says

Maybe you should go read the case. The settlement was 23 families and 2 large corporations that were suing BN. Not exaclty a single individual taking on exxon, ge, or the koch bros.

No burlington northern isn't very big at all. The big multinationals could buy and sell BN out of petty cash.

Class Actions is most likely the answer as with the Stringfellow Acid Pits.

Short of that just tort law or even small claims court.

Either way the law was used.

If this was done instead of useless agencies the taxpayer would save money.

Not to say that tort law does not need reform. Which would further enhance this very effective solution to the problem.

This is very interesting about how the bureaucracy is created and how it works. How the government is run by people nobody knows.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?414716-4/bureaucrat-kings

Quigley says

we appoint a regulatory agency to police the police. That's what is missing with the EPA, and that's how we fix (not abolish!) that agency.

Yes, how's that working out again...

joeyjojojunior says

Just curious--why do you think this?

Because I'm actively engaged in making my planet healthier, and you only get upset when someone who is doing your job for you is threatened with annihilation, leaving you on the hook to actually do something.

This is something I saw the other day that has a lot to do with this and it's pernicious nature.

https://www.c-span.org/video/?414716-4/bureaucrat-kings

joeyjojojunior says

So, how does the government benefit when companies go out of business? How is that in their best interest?

People from government regulatory agencies have a long history of being in bed with the biggest companies they are supposed to regulate. One back scratches the other, and fuck the government grants being wasted, because WE fund them. Again, government makes no goods, and sells no services that add value to society, economic or otherwise.

To that point the reason don't change it because we are only dealing with the tip of the iceberg in elections.

What doesn't change are the people within the regulatory agencies and the political staffers.

NuttBoxer says

Because I'm actively engaged in making my planet healthier, and you only get upset when someone who is doing your job for you is threatened with annihilation, leaving you on the hook to actually do something.

That's my point. What makes you think I'm not doing more than you? It's completely logical for me to do my part but also understand that doing my part isn't all that's needed.

I get upset when people think that the actions of individuals is all that is needed. Would you composting stop:

1. Hooker Chemical from dumping industrial waste in the Love Canal?
2. WR Grace from spewing asbestos into the atmosphere for decades?
3. PG and E from contaminating the water supply?

Not too mention air regulations cleaning up smog, acid rain, etc.

NuttBoxer says

People from government regulatory agencies have a long history of being in bed with the biggest companies they are supposed to regulate. One back scratches the other, and fuck the government grants being wasted, because WE fund them. Again, government makes no goods, and sells no services that add value to society, economic or otherwise.

Sure--it's called regulatory capture. It's a well known phenomena. Like others have said--understanding this problem and fixing it is what is needed. Getting rid of all regulation certainly isn't the cure.

Government absolutely provides services that are beneficial to society, however. You are dead wrong on this front.

indigenous says

Class Actions is most likely the answer as with the Stringfellow Acid Pits.

Short of that just tort law or even small claims court.

Either way the law was used.

If this was done instead of useless agencies the taxpayer would save money.

So after millions of people have been poisoned then litigating every single person's damage claim against an entire industry through the court system is somehow cheaper and easier than regulating the industry and not polluting in the first place? You just get weirder every day.

Class action is a joke. It's about lawyers mining money, nothing else. Litigants rarely get substantial compensation.

How can you be libertarian and support class action. Lawsuits go against everything libertarians stand for.

bob2356 says

So after millions of people have been poisoned then litigating every single person's damage claim against an entire industry through the court system is somehow cheaper and easier than regulating the industry and not polluting in the first place?

ONE of the idiocies of government is that they want to fix problems before they are problems they invent shit to fix to justify the agency that fixes the imaginary problem. So all of the agencies' actors view things through the narrative of finding something that justifies their paycheck. The money would be vastly better spent on violators of someones private property. bob2356 says

You just get weirder every day.

I am the benchmark, you are the one getting weirder.

bob2356 says

Lawsuits go against everything libertarians stand for.

Bullshit a rule of law is part of the libertarian tenet, they even have Xerces law in Somalia.

joeyjojojunior says

I get upset when people think that the actions of individuals is all that is needed. Would you composting stop:

1. Hooker Chemical from dumping industrial waste in the Love Canal?

2. WR Grace from spewing asbestos into the atmosphere for decades?

3. PG and E from contaminating the water supply?

Not too mention air regulations cleaning up smog, acid rain, etc.

My actions, no, my mentality, yes. Example... A few years back a company called BP dumped a bazillion gallons of oil into the gulf. Now regulations didn't stop it, and neither did my composting. But since that day my family has never once bought gas at an ARCO station. Why? After the spill I noticed their branding referenced their parent company, British Petroleum. ARCO is still owned by BP today, but you won't see it anywhere on their sign. There's a reason for that as I believe like minded people decided to stop frequenting their station.

If I find out someone is polluting they'll never get another cent from me. If it's in my town, I will do something about it. In the form of protest, and fines and legislation at the local level, where it needs to happen.

Washington doesn't know dick about my town, nor do they care to. So Fuck the EPA, I can handle my part just fine without them.

joeyjojojunior says

Sure--it's called regulatory capture. It's a well known phenomena. Like others have said--understanding this problem and fixing it is what is needed. Getting rid of all regulation certainly isn't the cure.

You don't fix a broken system, you through it out and start over. Or are you also a Trump believer?

"My actions, no, my mentality, yes. Example... A few years back a company called BP dumped a bazillion gallons of oil into the gulf. Now regulations didn't stop it, and neither did my composting. But since that day my family has never once bought gas at an ARCO station. Why? After the spill I noticed their branding referenced their parent company, British Petroleum. ARCO is still owned by BP today, but you won't see it anywhere on their sign. There's a reason for that as I believe like minded people decided to stop frequenting their station.

If I find out someone is polluting they'll never get another cent from me. If it's in my town, I will do something about it. In the form of protest, and fines and legislation at the local level, where it needs to happen.

Washington doesn't know dick about my town, nor do they care to. So Fuck the EPA, I can handle my part just fine without them."

Great--has your boycott caused them to pay for the cleanup? Or changed their behavior?

"You don't fix a broken system, you through it out and start over. Or are you also a Trump believer?"

OK--propose your new system then. Start over with what exactly?

joeyjojojunior says

Great--has your boycott caused them to pay for the cleanup? Or changed their behavior?

Has regulation...

I'll posit that my mindset has been more of a factor than the EPA's existence. Otherwise, why change the ARCO sign?

joeyjojojunior says

OK--propose your new system then. Start over with what exactly?

Already stated, locals take care of their own problems, big government butts out. Have some belief in yourself, your neighbors, and your town. If you can't trust those people, what makes you think a bunch of suits, who are still just people, but are not from your town, and don't care how the water use to look, or how the air used to smell, will be more effective at combating pollution?

"Has regulation..."

Of course it has. Nobody with half a brain can argue that the EPA hasn't significantly improved air quality, significantly reduced instances of large chemical spills, cleaned up old waste sites, etc. This is fact.

"Already stated, locals take care of their own problems, big government butts out. Have some belief in yourself, your neighbors, and your town. If you can't trust those people, what makes you think a bunch of suits, who are still just people, but are not from your town, and don't care how the water use to look, or how the air used to smell, will be more effective at combating pollution?"

You're living in a dream world. What deterrents can you, your neighbors, and your town wield to stop ABC chemicals from dumping into your local river that supplies water to the town.

bob2356 says

How can you be libertarian and support class action. Lawsuits go against everything libertarians stand for.

You may be right; however, libertarians are more against big business(which implies big government); outside of class action, what other recourse would a libertarian have?

NuttBoxer says

Already stated, locals take care of their own problems, big government butts out.

Ideally maybe, but lot of people in bumblefuck might not know how to take care of their own problems. Like agricultural runoff, contamination secondary to fracking. If assuming strictly libertarian approach, those resources may not get tapped at all.

MMR says

bob2356 says

How can you be libertarian and support class action. Lawsuits go against everything libertarians stand for.

You may be right

How do you figure?

MMR says

You may be right; however, libertarians are more against big business

In any practical sense In today's America libertarian is big business. Without wealthy big business ultra rich libertarians the libertarian movement would be nothing but a couple web pages that say mises.org. The libertarian movement was a very, very tiny fringe group up until the 70's mostly consisting of a handful of what were considered university crackpots. The ultra rich have since poured untold millions into creating the libertarian movement that now completely controls the government and has a literal army of thoroughly indoctrinated people promoting big business version of libertarianism even though it goes totally against their own interests. Most don't even know what they are saying, just mumbling their newspeak platitudes like acolytes at some cult.

The most ardent self proclaimed libertarians in the country are the koch brothers. David once ran as vice president on the libertarian party ticket. Do you suppose the hundreds of ultra rich that attend the koch brothers event twice a year are there just to grill some steaks and swap pics of the grand kids? Maybe they are planning how to raise the standard of living for the poor and middle class? Probably not. These people have very valuable and limited time yet they manage to keep 2 weeks free a year for this event. They expect a serious financial return on investment for their time spent there. Their only goal is to become more wealthy any way they can.

You can argue ivory tower ideologically pure theory all you want, but the bottom line is the ultra rich and big business are calling the libertarian shots.

joeyjojojunior says

Of course it has. Nobody with half a brain can argue that the EPA hasn't significantly improved air quality, significantly reduced instances of large chemical spills, cleaned up old waste sites, etc. This is fact.

Proof? Here's mine...

NuttBoxer says

joeyjojojunior says

You're living in a dream world. What deterrents can you, your neighbors, and your town wield to stop ABC chemicals from dumping into your local river that supplies water to the town.

Media campaign/bad publicity, lawsuits, physically bar the entrance to their factory, jail them for breaking local pollution laws.

It's sad you believer in a savior who's man, just like you, fallible, just like you, and excessively wasteful while producing poor results, hopefully unlike you.

MMR says

Ideally maybe, but lot of people in bumblefuck might not know how to take care of their own problems. Like agricultural runoff, contamination secondary to fracking. If assuming strictly libertarian approach, those resources may not get tapped at all.

They may not. So goes life. You can't save someone from themselves, ask any psychiatrist.

"Media campaign/bad publicity, lawsuits, physically bar the entrance to their factory, jail them for breaking local pollution laws. It's sad you believer in a savior who's man, just like you, fallible, just like you, and excessively wasteful while producing poor results, hopefully unlike you."

A savior? wtf are you talking about?

You somehow believe that it's impossible for a multi billion dollar corporation to buy off a local politician? How is it any different to have local people trying to regulate things other than them not having the time, people, expertise, or money?

NuttBoxer says

Proof? Here's mine...

Proof you are an idiot? That was a cleanup of abandoned by a mining company toxic waste that had a collapse in the mine while it was being pumped out. OMG there was one whole problem in cleaning up thousands of sites over 40 years. You probably have a worse safety record picking your nose. .

NuttBoxer says

Media campaign/bad publicity, lawsuits, physically bar the entrance to their factory, jail them for breaking local pollution laws.

Yea, that worked out so well for so many years that we had rivers so polluted they were catching fire.

joeyjojojunior says

"Really, so the EPA exists on who's dime? If you can't make the connection between backdoor deals and government agencies, then you'll never understand why the EPA doesn't give a shit about pollution."

OK, educate me. Show me the backdoor deals that connect the EPA to the government funding from completely separate agencies.

Crickets chirping, lots of crickets chirping.

The EPA put a dome on Springfield.

Enough said.

bob2356 says

OK, educate me. Show me the backdoor deals that connect the EPA to the government funding from completely separate agencies.

Not possible to educate someone who knows everything.

There is no backdoor deals necessary, the question is what is the cost of the EPA and what good have they done.

These mines were worked in a different time frame, so then in your mind the EPA comes into save the day in the present as if the mines were the oger. The mines are an anachronism.

Meanwhile the EPA and every other government agency cost ridiculous amounts of money while providing very questionable results.

E.G.:

Its annual budget is fairly modest in Beltway terms, at a little less than $11 billion, but that's not where the vast majority of its costs come from. Complying with EPA regulations costs the U.S. economy $353 billion per year — more than 30 times its budget — according to the best available estimate.

The noble EPA cost the economy 364 billion dollars EVERY year, do they provide 364 billion dollars worth of benefit? I think not, not even close.

What about the department of energy?

What about the subsidization of ethanol at a net cost to the taxpayer as ethanol takes more energy to produce than it gives.

As an added benefit the ogallala aquifer is being irreparable damaged to make ADM and others rich.

Added regulation or modified regulation? That's what's important in Bobby's mind.
A government apologist...