patrick.net

curious2 says

Meanwhile, I grow a bit impatient with the ignorant false equivalency between Islam and other religions that don't say to kill you for being a disbeliever, apostate, or blasphemer. People who assert that false equivalence like emotionally to identify as tolerant, but they come across as ignorant, and when they advocate spreading Islam they are advocating intolerance.

Agreed.

Islam demands tolerance for intolerance.

If you tolerate Islam, you're advocating beheadings, stoning of gays, end to women's rights, end to freedom of speech, and an end to freedom of religion, ironically.

It's not just a religion. It's an ultra-violent political movement that will kill you just as soon as it can @"Jazz Music" and it won't even thank you for putting all our heads on the chopping block with your well-meaning but disastrously suicidal feelz.

"Moderate" Muslim: "Islam demands that all non-believers convert, pay ransoms forever, or die, but don't worry about that, only extremists will enforce those rules."

Jazz: "OK, come right in. We trust you, and as a minority I know what it's like to be misunderstood, and anyway, all religions are the same."

Years later, when Muslims are 51% of population:

"Moderate" Muslim: "Now you must convert, pay, or die, Jazz!"

Jazz: "But you said only extremists enforce those rules!"

"Moderate" Muslim: "Ha, you weren't paying attention! Islam allows us to lie to infidels, too, if it helps spread Islam. Nice of you to help us. Now you die."

rando says

It's not just a religion. It's an ultra-violent political movement that will kill you just as soon as it can

1.6 billion people belong to an ultra-violent political movement with 2/3's living in asia. Wow the msm around the world must be covering up a hell of a lot of ultra-violence in asia. Where exactly is all that ultra violence going on?

Just a teeny tiny touch of hyperbole patrick?

bob2356 says

rando says

It's not just a religion. It's an ultra-violent political movement that will kill you just as soon as it can

1.6 billion people belong to an ultra-violent political movement with 2/3's living in asia. Wow the msm around the world must be covering up a hell of a lot of ultra-violence in asia. Where exactly is all that ultra violence going on?

Violence and human rights abuse via the sharia laws. Every single day where ever there are Muslims.
It's what happens when you take your morals from a 7th century child molester.

PeopleUnited says

There are scammers who use religion for self profit.

A scam does not have to be for financial gain. Scamming a person with the false promise of an afterlife or the false threat of eternal torture to get that person to obey you is still a scam and it's immoral. It is morally wrong to lie to people about material aspects of life to essentially take away their free choice.

PeopleUnited says

doesn't mean that absolute truths found in that religion are any less true.

Name even one "absolute truth" that any religion teaches us that could not be taught without religion and its lies about creation, the afterlife, and a moral authority figure. I'll concede the entire debate if you can convince me that religion is necessary to reveal even one god-damn truth.

Strategist says

Violence and human rights abuse via the sharia laws. Every single day where ever there are Muslims.

It's what happens when you take your morals from a 7th century child molester.

Good non answer. Where is all this ultra violence? With 1 billion people practising ultra violence it should be a slaughter house in Asia. All this ultra violence Is not in the news, What are your sources other than the usual it's true because I believe it should be true?

curious2 says

Meanwhile, I grow a bit impatient with the ignorant false equivalency between Islam and other religions that don't say to kill you for being a disbeliever, apostate, or blasphemer.

Of course Islam isn't equivalent to Christianity today. Islam is clearly much worse, and anyone making the argument that there is no difference between the followers of some religions, like the Islamic ones, and others, like the Christian ones, aren't behaving very differently is simply either delusional or lying.

However, just because two religions, or two families of religions, aren't equivalent doesn't mean that the fundamental problem isn't the same. The fundamental problem with Islam is faith, and that's the same for all religions including Christian ones. The reason Islam is far worse today than Christianity is because the faith of Muslims is so much greater and plays so much more of a role in their daily lives than the faith in Jesus does.

Those who argue that somehow faith in Jesus is better than faith in Mohamed because Jesus was a lovey-dovey hippie have to completely ignore 1600 years of Christian history. If you want to make a valid comparison between Islam and Christianity, you have to compare Muslims today with Christians from the Dark Ages because those two groups of believes are at the same level of faith-life integration. That would be comparing apples to apples. Of course, if you did compare those two groups, you'd see just how similar they are.

This is why I reject the presumption that there is something fundamentally different about Christianity that makes it the "good" religion. Such a presumption is empirically false. You cannot ignore history.

bob2356 says

Where exactly is all that ultra violence going on?

With the exception of the Socialist paradise of Venezuela, I do believe the vast majority of the "ultra violence" going on today are in the Muslim majority portions of the Middle East and Africa.

Where else today is there:
- ongoing genocide
- use of chemical weapons
- destruction of ancient archaeological sites
- sex slavery
- collapse of central government
- massive displacement of populations and refugee crisis?

What other place on the planet connected by borders, ethnicity or religion is more violent than the Muslim dominated portions of the Middle East and Africa?

socal2 says

With the exception of the Socialist paradise of Venezuela, I do believe the vast majority of the "ultra violence" going on today are in the Muslim majority portions of the Middle East and Africa.

Very nice but the statement was that

rando says

It's an ultra-violent political movement that will kill you just as soon as it can

Less than 1/3 of muslims live in the middle east and north africa. Where is the ultra violence where the other 2/3's live? There are more muslims in india than the entire middle east. Where is the ultra violence? There is no oil to fight over in india. Coincidence? I think not.

Violence in the mid east Is not about islam, it's about oil, money, power, and proxy wars for the superpowers. All the usual subjects. The ultra violence source is a fanatical wahhabi fundamentalist jihadist sect that funds, sponsors, and encourages terrorism around the world. Paid for with us oil dollars, us government tax dollars, and us military support.The same sect tillerman is sucking face with right now trying to sell more arms to.

Dan8267 says

PeopleUnited says

There are scammers who use religion for self profit.

A scam does not have to be for financial gain. Scamming a person with the false promise of an afterlife or the false threat of eternal torture to get that person to obey you is still a scam and it's immoral. It is morally wrong to lie to people about material aspects of life to essentially take away their free choice.

PeopleUnited says

doesn't mean that absolute truths found in that religion are any less true.

Name even one "absolute truth" that any religion teaches us that could not be taught without religion and its lies about creation, the afterlife, and a moral authority figure. I'll concede the entire debate if you can convince me that religion is necessary to reveal even one god-damn truth.

Religion is not necessary to reveal any truth. Religion is what people do for God. But since most people use faith and religion interchangeably they are often confused. I actually should call it faith because that is what true Christianity is. The freedom to seek to know the Creator is a fundamental human right. Religion is not necessary to reveal any truth, but since the Bible is the Word of God, it is the best source of truth. It is sharper than a two edged sword and it reveals the thoughts and intents of the heart. The Bible showed me that without God I would die in my sins, even if I was the most religious person I know. But the Bible also showed me that the punishment of my sins was laid upon the lamb, Jesus Christ and by simply putting my faith in Him I could have forgiveness and eternal life. The Holy Spirit convinced me that this is true and I have faith in what He revealed to me. And while I owe God everything, there is nothing I can do to earn His favor. If I do anything good is not even I that do it but Christ in me. I could never set foot in a church, never say another prayer, never donate another cent to help my fellow humans and still I could not change that God saved me and forgave me once and for all time. Those who have not experienced God cannot understand it. But it still does not make it untrue. Truth is truth. God is God. And nothing can change that.

You have faith in human reasoning, and many many people share that faith. But when you experience God you will see the folly of human reasoning. His ways are above our ways.

bob2356 says

Violence in the mid east Is not about islam, it's about oil, money, power, and proxy wars for the superpowers. All the usual subjects. The ultra violence source is a fanatical wahhabi fundamentalist jihadist sect that funds, sponsors, and encourages terrorism around the world. Paid for with us oil dollars, us government tax dollars, and us military support.The same sect tillerman is sucking face with right now trying to sell more arms to.

American policy has thrown gasoline on a pre-existing fire, but expressly Islamic violence in the mideast goes back to Mohamed. The Koran says specifically to strike terror into the enemies of Allah and kill the disbelievers (who are the "worst beasts" because they refuse to believe). Islamic violence continued through atrocities that provoked the first Crusade, the Muslim Conquest of India, the Barbary Pirates, etc. Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab wasn't even born until 300 years ago, and Islamic violence had already slaughtered millions of people. The Ottoman Caliphate genocide slaughtered a million Armenian Christians with none of the influences you listed.

The Barbary Wars occurred because the Barbary States were expressly following Islam by supporting the Barbary Pirates. When Thomas Jefferson asked Barbary ambassadors why they were doing this to Americans, who had never done anything to them, they said because Islam commands them to do that to disbelievers.

Any time you try to argue in defense of Islam, you are almost certain to lose. Most purported defenses are in fact hallucinations and wilful ignorance of history. It amazes me to see western non-Muslims pretend to know Islam better than Mohamed, the Ottoman Caliphs, and the Islamic State, where Big Daddy has a PhD in Islamic studies and justifies everything he does by reading from texts most Muslims hold sacred.

Look at Asia Bibi on death row in Pakistan and the murders of bloggers in Bangladesh: cowing everyone else into silence is the so-called peace of Islam, where nobody dares talk back. Once Muslims take over, they don't need to kill very many to cow the others.

bob2356 says

Strategist says

Violence and human rights abuse via the sharia laws. Every single day where ever there are Muslims.


It's what happens when you take your morals from a 7th century child molester.

Good non answer. Where is all this ultra violence? With 1 billion people practising ultra violence it should be a slaughter house in Asia. All this ultra violence Is not in the news, What are your sources other than the usual it's true because I believe it should be true?

Every few hours there is a major terrorist attack by the peaceful Muslims. And so many Islamic honor killings and human rights abuses. That is ultra violence.
It's time to shoot the devil and free the unfortunate, possessed Muslims.

PeopleUnited says

Christ and by simply putting my faith in Him I could have forgiveness and eternal life. The Holy Spirit convinced me that this is true and I have faith in what He revealed to me. And while I owe God everything, there is nothing I can do to earn His favor. If I do anything good is not even I that do it but Christ in me. I could never set foot in a church, never say another prayer, never donate another cent to help my fellow humans and still I could not change that God saved me and forgave me once and for all time. Those who have not experienced God cannot understand it. But it still does not make it untrue. Truth is truth. God is God. And nothing can change that.

You have faith in human reasoning, and many many people share that faith. But when you experience God you will see the folly of human reasoning. His ways are above our ways.

Good thing you weren't raised a Muslim in Saudi Arabia. You could have easily become brainwashed to join ISIS.

bob2356 says

Strategist says

Violence and human rights abuse via the sharia laws. Every single day where ever there are Muslims.


It's what happens when you take your morals from a 7th century child molester.

Good non answer. Where is all this ultra violence? With 1 billion people practising ultra violence it should be a slaughter house in Asia. All this ultra violence Is not in the news, What are your sources other than the usual it's true because I believe it should be true?

Hey, lets ask the Yazidi girls if Muslims are a source of ultra violence on a daily basis.

curious2 says

Any time you try to argue in defense of Islam, you are almost certain to lose. Most purported defenses are in fact hallucinations and wilful ignorance of history.

So the billion plus muslims living around the world outside of the middle east are what? Too ignorant of their own religion to be ultra violent? Saving up their ultra violence for a later date?

Who ended up with Armenian property and land? I didn't mention money and power? I'm sure I did.

Playing tit for tat with religions is simply silly. Christian and Muslim leaders both used religion as an excuse for conquest and power. There were atrocities for 500 years by the christian church before Mohammad was born that continued right up through the 20th century.

Strategist says

Every few hours there is a major terrorist attack by the peaceful Muslims. And so many Islamic honor killings and human rights abuses

Every few hours? there is a major terrorist attack? Sure right.. Better hide under your bed now.

Strategist says

Hey, lets ask the Yazidi girls if Muslims are a source of ultra violence on a daily basis.

The Yazidi girls captured by the wahabbi sponsored sunni isis? Thanks for making my point.

PeopleUnited says

Religion is what people do for God.

That's a lie. Your god doesn't exist. So you can stop right there.

It's also hypocritical for you to assert the existence of your god while rejecting the literally thousands of other gods currently still worshiped around the world. Are you really going to give equal credence to this guy?

Seriously, unless you take elephant boy seriously, I don't have to take zombie Jesus seriously. Elephant boy is actually more plausible than your god.

P.S. I like the mouse. He's cute. He's holding a little cup.

bob2356 says

curious2 says

Any time you try to argue in defense of Islam, you are almost certain to lose. Most purported defenses are in fact hallucinations and wilful ignorance of history.

So the billion plus muslims living around the world outside of the middle east are what? Too ignorant of their own religion to be ultra violent? Saving up their ultra violence for a later date?

The Indian Muslims, in spite of their large numbers are not as violent as the Pakistanis and arabs. It's the Hindu and Buddhist influence that makes them less violent.

PeopleUnited says

You have faith in human reasoning

Reasoning has nothing to do with humans. Reasoning knows no species bounds or, for that matter, does it make any difference if it is done by machine or living creature.

Nor is faith involved. I do not have faith that the square root of two is an irrational number. I have knowledge. Knowledge is good. Faith is bad. The two are not the same thing.

Strategist says

PeopleUnited says

...Truth is truth. God is God. ...

Good thing you weren't raised a Muslim in Saudi Arabia. You could have easily become brainwashed to join ISIS.

Exactly. The mechanism of faith can be just as easily made to serve evil as to serve good. It is fundamentally flawed. However, if good actually works, and there is ample scientific evidence that it does, then reason favors good.

Dan8267 says

Strategist says

PeopleUnited says

...Truth is truth. God is God. ...

Good thing you weren't raised a Muslim in Saudi Arabia. You could have easily become brainwashed to join ISIS.

Exactly. The mechanism of faith can be just as easily made to serve evil as to serve good. It is fundamentally flawed. However, if good actually works, and there is ample scientific evidence that it does, then reason favors good.

Don't remember who said it:
"Men who believe absurdities, will commit atrocities"

Strategist says

Don't remember who said it:

"Men who believe absurdities, will commit atrocities"

Voltaire, and I believe the quote is "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.". It's a warning against listening to clerics.

You know it's a bad sign when Strategist and I agree on something.

Dan8267 says

You know it's a bad sign when Strategist and I agree on something.

Disgusting. Dangerous too.

bob2356 says

There are more muslims in india than the entire middle east. Where is the ultra violence? There is no oil to fight over in india. Coincidence? I think not.

It's because the Muslims are in the minority in India.

Britain literally had to carve out a separate country moving 10's of millions of human beings to separate the Muslims from the Hindus.

I blame Hillary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

PeopleUnited says

What are the root causes of Islamic terrorism? Discuss.

To start with, us dropping bombs on them would be a good start.

I am no fan of their dip-shit religion but, pick ANY region of the world and rain bombs down on them for the better part of a generation, and some percentage of the people that you don’t kill or cripple will become “terrorists” and try to get revenge.

In 2016 alone, 15 fucking years after a few buildings got knocked down in NY, the US dropped 26 THOUSAND bombs on Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan.

This started as some neocon psychopathy but now it is just who we are.
And so we reap the whirlwind.

Robert Sproul says

In 2016 alone, 15 fucking years after a few buildings got knocked down in NY, the US dropped 26 THOUSAND bombs on Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Yemen, Somalia and Pakistan.

The vast majority of Muslims in all those countries were killed by their fellow Muslims over ideological, tribal and sectarian differences.

Meanwhile, OPEC and Russia's oil cartels are nearly broken thanks to the US oil production ingenuity. And radical Islamists are too busy fighting each other and dodging US bombs as opposed to finding time to "knock down a few buildings" in NYC.

socal2 says

And radical Islamists are too busy fighting each other and dodging US bombs as opposed to finding time to "knock down a few buildings" in NYC

I am sure you are right.
Spreading chaos and misery and death through the region is genius diplomacy. Winning!
And of course, THEY killed many more than the few crummy hundreds of thousands (single digit millions at most) that WE killed.
(And the fuckers probably killed MOST of the 10,000 Americans that lost their lives.)
This shit couldn't have worked out better.

jazz music says

What is the cause of Irish Catholic terrorism? What should we do about Catholicism?

England enacted a policy to shoot them on sight.

With what guns? Catholic Church is decreasing in size anyway.

Why singling out Catholics? Are presbyterians simply victims?

socal2 says

It's because the Muslims are in the minority in India.

Exactly, at independence, Jinnah was "given" Pakistan, which eventually split into Pakistan and east Pakistan in 1971 (Bangladesh) over ethnic and linguistic differences (pakis speak Urdu and Bangladeshi speak Bengali)

They do not cause more damage in society because they are minorities.

Yes, they are incessant whiners and aid and abet terrorism when opportunities present themselves.

After all, they promote madrassa education instead of real education and just have to have 8 kids even though they cannot afford them. Birth control not part of vocabulary

When things don't go their way, in places like Hyderabad, they shut down whole city with threat of riots.

Those who are non-ghetto tend to be the moderates that bob speaks of...but certainly not remotely representative of the average Muslim in India.

PeopleUnited says

What are the root causes of Islamic terrorism? Discuss.

The msm said that they hate us for "OUR FREEDOMS".

Robert Sproul says

I am no fan of their dip-shit religion but, pick ANY region of the world and rain bombs down on them for the better part of a generation, and some percentage of the people that you don’t kill or cripple will become “terrorists” and try to get revenge.

Yeah well,but,umm,ehhh...they started it.

While we are on the topic of unnecessary death and destruction: What is the the root cause of American warmongering?

justme says

hile we are on the topic of unnecessary death and destruction: What is the the root cause of American warmongering?

What is the root cause of the most sustained peaceful and prosperous time in modern history since the US became a superpower?

Despite the violence in the Muslim World, the world is more peaceful now than it has been in decades.

Worldwide poverty is at an all time low too.

https://news.vice.com/article/the-world-has-gotten-safer-except-the-middle-east
http://www.npr.org/2016/07/16/486311030/despite-the-headlines-steven-pinker-says-the-world-is-becoming-less-violent

socal2 says

What is the root cause of the most sustained peaceful and prosperous time in modern history since the US became a superpower?

Despite the violence in the Muslim World, the world is more peaceful now than it has been in decades.

Worldwide poverty is at an all time low too.

Secularism - Democracy - Capitalism

socal2 says

bob2356 says

There are more muslims in india than the entire middle east. Where is the ultra violence? There is no oil to fight over in india. Coincidence? I think not.

It's because the Muslims are in the minority in India.

Britain literally had to carve out a separate country moving 10's of millions of human beings to separate the Muslims from the Hindus.

There are 175 million muslims in india. About the same as pakistan and more then the middle east. There are 200 million in Indonesia where they are very much the majority. Where is the ultra violence? Simple question.

bob2356 says

There are 175 million muslims in india. About the same as pakistan and more then the middle east. There are 200 million in Indonesia where they are very much the majority. Where is the ultra violence? Simple question.

The argument that the vast majority of a religion doesn't commit violent acts and therefore the religion is good only applies to Christianity. If you applied the same standards to both Christianity and Islam, you'd have to either accept or condemn both.

socal2 says

Despite the violence in the Muslim World, the world is more peaceful now than it has been in decades.

Yes, the US exports violence to the Middle East, where we side with any dictator that is anti-Russian (Saudi/Royals, Egypt miltary just for starters), and demonize and attack any government, dictatorial or democratic, that is pro-russian (Libya/Khadaffi, Syria/Assad, Iran) or not sufficiently pro-Israel (but only if they are not our "friends").

The world is "more peaceful" only to the extent the US has started somewhat less bloody wars than they did in Vietnam. Since 1975 we instead have specialized in terrorizing poor people in Latin America and the ME, and overthrowing democratically elected governments wherever we could,. We really should pat ourselves on the back for not killing quite as many people was we used to. We're the good guys!