patrick.net

Several dead? How did you miss the half million or so dead in the overall conflict?
There's a lot of work cleaning up Obama and Hillary's mess in Syria.

You go and tell the US government to go screw themselves and establish your own "rebel" state armed to the teeth within the US and see how long it will take for the government to come and take you and your family out. Or just don't pay your taxes and react hostile when they come for you. Please don't try this at home!

Mell, you mean like civil/revolutionary wars that lead to independence?

Rew says

Mell, you mean like civil/revolutionary wars that lead to independence?

On their own volition they can. Not if the vast majority supports the current administration that has managed to have people of various religions and cultures live peacefully next to each other for many years.

Rew says

Likely this will be the fourth chemical attack committed by Syrian forces.

Our response will be typical condemnation with no teeth. If anything we appear to be moving closer to Assad and Russia here.

I'm going to watch for what Mattis says here. Our response from Obama was the most disappointing foreign policy blunder in my lifetime. Don't think Trump admin. will be any different.

I remember Obama drawing a red line when it comes to Syria using chemical weapons. Syria used chemical weapons, but what did Obama do? Nothing. Obama was a weak President. I hold him primarily responsible for the rise of ISIS, and the genocide the Yazidis suffered.
Shame on you, Obama.

Strategist says

red line...[Someone] used chemical weapons, but what did Obama do?

He avoided falling into Ayip Erdugan's trap, for once. The fake news "red line" meme echoed the Iraqi WMD meme, and the Gulf of Tonkin "incident", as the MSM tried to sell yet another war based on fake news but drenched in real blood.

Rew says

the most disappointing foreign policy blunder in my lifetime

Coming from someone else, I would read that comment to mean you were born after the invasion of Iraq, and Johnson&Nixon's whole chronicle of error in southeast Asia (Viet Nam, Cambodia, Laos, Pakistan), but you probably remember at least one of those, so it shows rather a strong preference for war over peace, even if the alleged reasons for war have to be fabricated. Today's neoliberal Democrats seem dreadfully disappointed when they don't get as many self-defeating wars as they want. Even if you limited yourself to the blunders of the most recent 10 years, you might rather consider Hillary's War in Libya and the rat line funneling weapons to Sunni militias in Syria, including ultimately al-Qaida. Slaughtering hundreds of thousands, displacing millions, and spreading Sunni Islam, Democrats have become yet another war party of Allah.

I read the CNN article, and while they did overly quote prominent jihadists, globalists, White Helmet groups, and the batshit crazy Senator John McCain, there was relevant information in the article. Such as:
1)Syrian government categorically denies involvement with the gas attack.
2)Russia, who is allied with Syria, flew no sorties on that day.
3) the international community widely condemns all such attacks.
4) only 70-100 people were killed, all civilians, making the net result insignificant for any sort of war advancement, and devastating to international opinion should Syrian government have commanded the attack.
5) Syrian government radio declared earlier that day that a rebel gas factory had been destroyed.

Based on these facts, I'll extrapolate a likely possibility.

Rebels were secretly manufacturing sarin gas for use against the Syrian army. This was exposed and the army bombed the factory in response. Some gas had already been manufactured, and stored elsewhere, so the rebels decided it would be best used to try to trigger a fake war crime and accuse the Syrian government of an offence that would incense the international community and perhaps even make Russia break its alliance.

So they did.

The chemical stories I heard before seem to have been plants by central media. Wasn't one of them actually committed by coalition forces?

http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/10/23/hersh-vindicated-turkish-whistleblowers-corroborate-story-on-false-flag-sarin-attack-in-syria/

Well, I guess Turkey isn't actually coalition...

Rew says

Our response from Obama was the most disappointing foreign policy blunder in my lifetime. Don't think Trump admin. will be any different.

From the article:
"New York-based Human Rights Watch has accused the Syrian government of conducting at least eight chemical attacks using chlorine gas on opposition-controlled residential areas during the final months of the battle for Aleppo last year that killed at least nine civilians and injured 200. A joint investigation by the United Nations and the international chemical weapons watchdog determined the Syrian government was behind at least three additional attacks in 2014 and 2015 involving chlorine gas, and that the Islamic State group was responsible for at least one, involving mustard gas."

I quietly wait for Trump to do right here. Or are all the 'red liners' above just talking the talk?

Whichever side used this today, we should go take our pound of flesh in return. I don't expect much from the Trump Admin though. Russia is all mixed up in here making any reaction of that sort quite difficult.

So looks like Ironman has no faith Trump will do anything different, or work on this, either. Good to know.

Nobody wants WWIII, Rew. You're over here talking like Shylock grasping for his pound of flesh over a murky incident that has no direct connection to the Syrian government. Go peddle your war hawk propaganda to someone who cares. You're sounding exactly like your idol, John McCain.

Quigley says

over a murky incident that has no direct connection to the Syrian government.

When the murk clears, are we going to send a signal that the use of these types of weapons is off limits? If not: Obama's red line is embraced by Trump.

Ironman says

Two Fucking Months!!!

LOL. I'm not expecting he solves it in a day (or really ever to be honest). I'm just postulating I don't think his reaction is going to be ANY different than Obama. If anything Trump is the King of tough talk and bluster.

Put up or shut-up.

Quigley says

Nobody wants WWIII, Rew. You're over here talking like Shylock grasping for his pound of flesh over a murky incident that has no direct connection to the Syrian government. Go peddle your war hawk propaganda to someone who cares. You're sounding exactly like your idol, John McCain.

This.

Rew says

Whichever side used this today, we should go take our pound of flesh in return.

Rew, if you've been lending money to militias or any side in the Syrian war, you might have done something illegal and should seek legal advice promptly. Otherwise I don't see how anyone in Syria could possibly owe you "a pound of flesh," and I certainly don't agree with your assertion that "we" have some obligation to go there and take it for you. Your Sunni Muslim "friends" in KSA and Turkey have been financing Sunni militias in Syria, and America has reportedly been giving them weapons, but I haven't read about any loans. What kind of person lends money to suicide jihadis anyway? It sounds as daft as getting involved in yet another land war in Asia.

Rew, you seem to love war and Islam. You say you want to get involved, so find a legal way of going there. Don't bother with the parts of Syria where the Christians, secularists, and Shia are sheltering with President Assad. Get permission to join one of the Sunni militias backed by our "allies" and reportedly armed by the CIA and State, e.g. al-Nusra or al-Qaida. Last I heard, our government paid hundreds of millions to recruit around 10 secular fighters, so if you had joined that program then you could have retired or died for Islam by now. Whatever you do though, don't pretend we have some obligation to help you escalate and spread Islamic violence.

curious2 says

and I certainly don't agree with your assertion that "we" have some obligation to go there and take it for you.

curious2 says

Whatever you do though, don't pretend we have some obligation to help you escalate and spread Islamic violence.

Feeling a little obtuse are "we"?

Syria : current recruiting grounds for ISIS galore. Our actions don't look like we will change much there. Trump is going to continue Obama military policies and inaction with regards to use of chemical weapons.

Either the the "red line" was the right message, followed by the right in-action, or not. What's Trump going to do? Sit on his hands and tweet, is my bet. That was the point of my thread and post.

Further, yes, I would very much love the US Military to do a calculated retaliatory strike as a punitive measure against those who used these weapons. With more to follow if it continues. Does it make the situation amazingly better? Solve Syria? No. Prevent people from chemically burning to death? Yep. Prevent our grounds troops, who Trump has scaled up, from facing a similar threat? You bet!

Here is me being a "War Hawk" again ...

Next up will be that South Sudan becomes an Islamic terrorist hotbed. Why? (Because Islam is a poisonous thought Humans must not think? No.) Because we don't care enough to stop it, and don't think it will cost us more in the long run.

The United States of America, at least did, set the tone for what was acceptable with regards to politics and war. We are also the biggest 'Empire' today with the most to lose for instability ANYWHERE in the world. If we want to retrench back there is going to be a big cost to that.

Currently we are domestically in chaos, with a completely inept government, and the world is adrift looking for new direction. Everything I know says far bigger conflicts this way come, and it will be exactly because we pull into a little shell, and let it happen.

Ironman says

We don't know yet because ...

What do you think he will do? I think ZERO change on foreign policy, because he doesn't know anything about modern war.

Ironman says

Thanks Obama!!

Woooo-boy. If you think the current chaos is because of Obama, you have some big soul searching to do. Trump credibility and popularity is falling like a rock.

curious2 says

What kind of person lends money to suicide jihadis anyway?

Ha ha ha. LOL.
An Arab might. It's not their brains that made them famous.

Strategist says

He just kept drawing red lines on the sand.

What color of red was it? (i.e. : what do you really mean?)

Strategist says

We need to torture terrorists for information.

Yes. Because we have mass credible evidence that torture works, and we want to make sure we set that as the precedent for world conflict going forward, so our own troops may be torture. (this is where I swear at you)

Strategist says

Trump wants to join hands with Russia and others to destroy ISIS once and for all.

In the crossfire will be a democratic rebellion that will be extinguished too as Russia and Assad seem unable to tell rebel field hospitals from ISIS training camp. (Sorry about the chlorine! My bad!)

Rew says

Strategist says

We need to torture terrorists for information.

Yes. Because we have mass credible evidence that torture works, and we want to make sure we set that as the precedent for world conflict going forward, so our own troops may be torture. (this is where I swear at you)

Torture works. Wether we do it or not, the Islamic radicals will always torture our troops and citizens for pleasure.
You can swear at me all you want. I don't mind. :)

Strategist says

An Arab might. It's not their brains that made them famous.

Hospitals, Surgery, Algebra, Optics, the fucking toothbrush.
Or, if you prefer, a little more PNet worthy, how about frequency analysis in cryptography?

Barbarian. ;)

Strategist says

Torture works.

Doesn't.

Rew says

Strategist says

An Arab might. It's not their brains that made them famous.

Hospitals, Surgery, Algebra, Optics, the fucking toothbrush.
Or, if you prefer, a little more PNet worthy, how about frequency analysis in cryptography?

Barbarian. ;)

Hey Rew,

Some of the things you listed they are just copied from India. Arabs are just good at copying. If you are muslim never mind.

Rew says

Strategist says

An Arab might. It's not their brains that made them famous.

Hospitals, Surgery, Algebra, Optics, the fucking toothbrush.
Or, if you prefer, a little more PNet worthy, how about frequency analysis in cryptography?

Big deal. All civilizations contributed something.
The only things that made Arabs famous, were oil and terrorism. None of them required brains.

The Best Of: Stupid Arabs (Funny). HD - YouTube
Video for stupid arabsâ–¶ 3:32
www.youtube.com/embed/VVwkgyv1qRM
May 20, 2012 - Uploaded by gags justforfun
funny and comedy must watch subscibe comment rate.

Trump admin says: Syria and Russia did it. Sukhoi jets dropped the munitions.

Atleast wiki has some reference in there:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_influence_on_Islamic_science

Who would have thought a culture and people would improve on something? Unheard of.

Trump let slip the tweets of war! :p

Rew says

Trump admin says: Syria and Russia did it. Sukhoi jets dropped the munitions.

Why would Russia use chemical weapons? Makes no sense.

Rew says

Who would have thought a culture and people would improve on something? Unheard of.

Trump let slip the tweets of war! :p

How is copying something and showing that as your own Improving. That is called stealing.

i guess you are ok with China taking IP from US companies and saying we are just improving.

indc says

Rew says

Who would have thought a culture and people would improve on something? Unheard of.

Trump let slip the tweets of war! :p

How is copying something and showing that as your own Improving. That is called stealing.

i guess you are ok with China taking IP from US companies and saying we are just improving.

Indians are a lot smarter than Arabs. How many Arabs do you see in tech companies and work that requires brains?

Did Shakespeare write original works or merely steal the alphabet and re-arrange the letters a bunch? The point is the degree to which you change something can make it your own. Whole fields of law devoted to this. Sure, India. But India didn't spread these ideas to the west and Arabss did more than 'steal'. Arabic culture, to date, has typically been far more influential on the West.

I'd trade our entire IT department for just the seven Arab SW engineers I work with daily.

Rew says

I'd trade our entire IT department for just the seven Arab SW engineers I work with daily.

OK. Here are your Arab engineers:

stupid ARABs in 21 century - YouTube
Video for dumbest arabs youtubeâ–¶ 3:22
www.youtube.com/embed/_EtUonALEYc
Aug 3, 2010 - Uploaded by MrSepehr007
Almost died laughing LITERALLY-Arab practical joke - Duration: 1:30. thatnight6969 2,427,313 views · 1:30 ...

Stupid is as marrying your family members for 1200 years does.

Quigley says

Several dead? How did you miss the half million or so dead in the overall conflict?

There's a lot of work cleaning up Obama and Hillary's mess in Syria.

A bigger mess: Bringing back to life ~4500 servicemen the SLIME FUCKING TRASH Republicans killed in IRAQ.
FUCK YOU LYING SOCIALIST REPUBLICANS!

Rew says

Did Shakespeare write original works or merely steal the alphabet and re-arrange the letters a bunch? The point is the degree to which you change something can make it your own. Whole fields of law devoted to this. Sure, India. But India didn't spread these ideas to the west and Arabss did more than 'steal'. Arabic culture, to date, has typically been far more influential on the West.

I'd trade our entire IT department for just the seven Arab SW engineers I work with daily.

Are you trying to say that Indian system is archiac and arabic system is advanced. What else do you think. White man came to India to give them civilization.
Do you have proof that whatever muslim guy did was much advanced than indian system. Dont try to bullshit us. Yes europe got knowledge from arabs because much of the knowledge was in the east and arabs were just conduits for knowledge transfer.
The best comparison I can give is if Indian system is alphabets, the best the muslim guy did was put it in order that you read now.
Did you ever ask your muslim friends why was all the great discoveries happened in the initial phase of Islam and not in middle or later phases?
Let me tell you why, in the initial phase Islam was not strong it was just growing. It did not have much control on its population. People still had freedom of thought . But once islam gets stronger it sucks intellectual thoughts.

indc says

Did you ever ask your muslim friends why was all the great discoveries happened in the initial phase of Islam and not in middle or later phases?

Let me tell you why, in the initial phase Islam was not strong it was just growing. It did not have much control on its population. People still had freedom of thought . But once islam gets stronger it sucks intellectual thoughts.

Loved it. Thanks.

Strategist says

Indians are a lot smarter than Arabs. How many Arabs do you see in tech companies and work that requires brains?

Europeans in the age of enlightenment were much smarter than Europeans in the dark ages. Does this disprove the theory of evolution or prove that European genes were replaced by aliens? No. It just means that society is fragile, and groups of people slip into periods of darkness where resources are held back and smart people don't have opportunity. Then, there are periods where society is working well, and there is plenty of opportunity, so intelligent people can share ideas and discover/invent new things.

The Arab world at the moment is a mess. That doesn't mean that they are genetically inferior or have never been capable of greatness. It means that right now, it's a mess, and many of the people in power are selfish assholes.

YesYNot says

The Arab world at the moment is a mess. That doesn't mean that they are genetically inferior or have never been capable of greatness. It means that right now, it's a mess, and many of the people in power are selfish assholes.

It just means when a society is held back by religion and stupid beliefs, it will breed more idiots.

YesYNot says

Europeans in the age of enlightenment were much smarter than Europeans in the dark ages.

The were freer of religious constraints. The Catholic Church had lost the power to suppress scientific and intellectual advance by the time of the Enlightenment. Or you could say that the Enlightenment itself was the revolt against religious power:

The Enlightenment was marked by an emphasis on the scientific method and reductionism along with increased questioning of religious orthodoxy

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment

Islam is far more violent and anti-intellectual than the Catholic Church was at its very worst.

You could even say that Islamic terrorism is a reaction to the Enlightenment. It took a very long time for Enlightenment ideas to finally reach Islamic countries, but with the mixing of people and the rise of the internet, now Muslims are being exposed to anti-Islamic ideas like democracy, freedom of speech, and freedom of religion.

Islam is definitely being threatened by the overwhelming worldwide evidence that every single prosperous peaceful scientifically advanced society is non-Islamic.

rando says

The Catholic Church had lost the power to suppress scientific and intellectual advance by the time of the Enlightenment.

Christianity does not have science in a bottle, but it sure does hold back/slow the transmission of understanding from the scientific community to the general population.

rando says

Islam is far more violent and anti-intellectual than the Catholic Church was at its very worst.

I'll leave the scoring to the historians. My point was that you cannot look at a snapshot of a society at a specific point in time and draw conclusions about the intelligence of the people there or the inherent value of the dominant religion. Personally, I don't care for any religion, so I'm not going to directly defend Islam. But I will point out that there are many reasons for a society to fail or succeed. I've read that societies that are too rich in a single controllable resource (like oil) tend to become controlled by assholes and society suffers. It's hard to determine cause and effect though, as there are many variables to account for including the correlation of religion with oil resources. On the other hand, we are/were pretty resource rich and that was an advantage over places that are flat out resource poor. So, there are many variables that help determine the fate of societies beyond the intelligence of the population.

What we can agree on is that today Islam is being used to get people to behave terribly.
Some of our differences may explain our different views regarding taking in a small amount of refugees.

Strategist says

OK. Here are your Arab engineers:

Those don't look like any engineers I know. Those look like tribal leaders and warriors to me.

Just what was 'stupid' about that video exactly?