patrick.net

Bush 43 was a completely failed presidency. I'll take Pence not because he is a change in foreign national policy. Very few candidates actually have enough knowledge to stand up to current Military leadership and set new courses. Further, Bush administration straight up manipulated the US population into a war which has perpetuated and grown terrorism, not defeated it.

I support Pence taking the reigns from Trump because he actually would follow more democratic norms. He has an absolute crap social agenda I hate as well.

In short, Pence would actually let America get some needed work and improvements done. Trump is just failure, division, and corruption. It' a low low bar, but the best I can hope for in under 4 years.

curious2 says

and we don't have that anyway.

It's a death by paper cuts and increments. It is happening.

Rew says

Trump....

has a long record of success in multiple fields where others have failed. He persevered through incredible opposition to win the Presidency. We don't know yet how he'll do.

Pence has a much worse record.

Rew says

It is happening.

No, TDS is happening. Most of the 'threats' against Jewish community centers were phoned in by a Jewish teen, and others by an anti-Trump communist, and a Jewish guy painted a swastika on his own house and then reported to police that his house had been vandalized. False flags, fake news, a 'mostly BS witch-hunt' on CNN and Maddow boosts ratings by stoking TDS, these things are happening; authoritarianism isn't.

The President might be a lightning rod, but Pence would be a disaster.

curious2 says

has a long record of success in multiple fields where others have failed.

He has a long track record of making people believe this. He is a showman. He is flash not substance. His success is phantom, bluster, and bully. He is not self made.

curious2 says

but Pence would be a disaster.

Debatable. He is raising funds now. He is unmarred by scandal, quiet, face in pictures but never smeared. He is in the exact right place to take things. Deftly maneuvered around the nose cone touch with humor. True politician that knows what he is doing.

How would he be a disaster? By what measures would he be worse than Trump?

Rew says

He is a showman.

So was Reagan.

Rew says

How would he be a disaster? By what measures would he be worse than Trump?

Pence has all of W's flaws but lacks W's intelligence and compassion. He could easily stumble into another stupid war. He lacks President Trump's intelligence and record of success. Pence lacks President Trump's sense of humor, and the sense of perspective that goes with it.

Pence is a politician, but that isn't necessarily a good thing. He's more of an idealogue put up by backers who were disappointed by his performance, and he wouldn't even have won a second term as governor. I do suggest reading the Boston Globe piece I linked above.

Nobody is self-made, though some pretend to be. "The trouble with self-made men is that they tend to worship their creator.” At every stage of Donald Trump's life, you can point to others who appeared to have at least his advantages, yet didn't succeed as he has.

President Pence day 1: restores Whitehouse briefings, Bannon/Miller/Trumps - gone, a simple message of, "America I know I wasn't directly chosen but I am here and willing to serve. We have a lot of serious work to do before us. I know many of you do not believe as the previous administration, and that many have differences with my beliefs as well. I vow as your incoming President to truly put America first by serving you, the people, and restoring a sense of bi-aprtisan work on the tough challenges that face us."

Nation goes crazy ... despite how true that message may be. Even the appearance of moving things back from where we are now is nothing but massive wins. The dems would fall all over themselves like love struck kittens.

curious2 says

you an point to others who appeared to have at least his advantages,

Who have I pointed to? Obama?
If a measure of success is being embroiled constantly in litigation, Trump wins big.

curious2 says

He could easily stumble into another stupid war.

Stumble into, yes. Like any other president. Need to ensure power? Doubtful. The best thing for a Trump presidency right now is war.

curious2 says

He lacks President Trump's intelligence

Wow. Examples?

Rew says

The dems would fall all over themselves like love struck kittens.

and lose the midterms, because they've staked their whole campaign on TDS. They've been building up Pence, so they can't credibly turn around and campaign against him. He'd say he needs larger Republican majorities in the Congress, and win the midterms, Democrats "winning" again like Charlie Sheen.

Seriously, TDS seems to cause so much cognitive dissonance that it derails judgment entirely.

Rew says

Who have I pointed to?

That was a typo - thanks for pointing it out - fixed now.

Rew says

curious2 says

He lacks President Trump's intelligence

Wow. Examples?

Wow - you're asking for praise of President Trump? From Trump's Wharton degree to his record of success in real estate, entertainment, and now politics, he's a proven winner in countless battles where he seemed hopelessly outnumbered. Congratulations, you're "winning" like Charlie Sheen again, getting people to praise President Trump, where previously I had said only that we don't know yet how he'll do. I still reserve judgment as to how he'll do, time will tell, but he's obviously very smart.

In contrast, about Pence, seriously, read the Boston Globe piece I linked already.

"They've been building up Pence"

Examples of Dems building up Pence?

"From Trump's Wharton degree to his record of success in real estate"

I find degrees can be bought, and I find Trump's real estate record to be dubious at best. He was definitely successful as an entertainer. However, I find success as an entertainer and intelligence to have a very low correlation

A BS in Econ from Wharton. That's it? That's our intelligence marker to date for Trump? Pretty underwhelming for a President in my opinion. There is nothing here that befits a world leader. He is causing more problems for himself weekly.

Trump has two things: a brand and a nationalist base. That's it.

Rew says

OMG! We are all gonna die!!!!!!!

That only happens if you don't convert.

Usually it's just a lot of rape.

Maybe Zuckerberg will heal America by reducing privacy and massively increasing immigration even more regardless of econ conditions when he runs with Kamala in 2020 hahahaha

"See Rew's "day 1" fantasy above. The whole premise of the 'impeach' crowd rests on the false assumption that Pence would supposedly be better, otherwise it makes no sense recklessly replacing a President without thinking through the consequences."

I don't think one guy on Pat.net supports your statement that "Dems have been building up Pence". Even Rew says Pence sucks, but he just sucks less than Trump. Hardly building him up.

Rew says

He has a long track record of making people believe this. He is a showman. He is flash not substance. His success is phantom, bluster, and bully. He is not self made.

Too many people believe trumps version of trump without bothering to find out the facts. He was a lousy manager of real estate projects and would have long been gone without his fathers deep pockets, political influence, and lots of tax dollars. Trump is a master self promoter, marketer, and showman. PT Barnum level master. Once he gave up managing real estate projects and began selling himself via branding is when he became very successful.

All politicians are showmen, peep think Chuck schumer wants to reform Wall Street, when his job is to deflect reform with token laws makes by faux outage, and leveraging any real push to reform for big bucks

Eric place holder and Obama ran down that statute of limitations

What's Eric doing these days, hehehe

Neoliberals :no wall, no border between countries. No questions, no mandatory id! Human rights!
Also neolibetals : nobody on internet without confirmed id. Questions, no anonymous, no right to use internet!!!

Liberals: trump wants to build a wall= fascist.
Also liberals: trump hasn't built the wall yet= fascist.

Liberals: border wall - free movement of people! Danger can't inform cross border freedom.
Also liberals: Canadian drugs too dangerous to cross borders. Total ban necessary for medical safety.

Right Booker?

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Maybe Zuckerberg will heal America by reducing privacy and massively increasing immigration even more regardless of econ conditions when he runs with Kamala in 2020 hahahaha

Gawd I hope he runs! Easy win for anyone against that fuck! There's literally a Hollywood movie made about what a cunt he is as a person and a boss.

liberals: Bill Clinton and Hillary talking to Russia = good.
liberals: Trump talking to Russia = fascist

Conservatives: Government bad. Government spending worse
Conservatives: Except when Government spends billions on a wall. Or trillions on defense.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Liberals: border wall - free movement of people! Danger can't inform cross border freedom.

Liberals: Border wall is a gigantic waste of money. And an enormous transfer of my wealth to favored infrastructure companies.

Tim Aurora says

except the people that are tired of America being on top and are cheering its decline

Yes because that's exactly what MAGA stands for. facepalm

Where do you idiots come from?

joeyjojojunior says

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Liberals: border wall - free movement of people! Danger can't inform cross border freedom.

Liberals: Border wall is a gigantic waste of money. And an enormous transfer of my wealth to favored infrastructure companies.

You must have been super-duper angry when Obama spent $3 trillion bombing brown people, right?

bob2356 says

PT Barnum level master.

People call PT Barnum a Genius, Hall of Fame Entrepreneur, etc. If Barnum had got himself elected President, perhaps partisans would also have called him a "buffoon," "fool," "idiot," "incompetent," "stupid," and a fascist, and (paradoxically) also a Russian agent. And maybe they would have gone bonkers whenever anyone pointed out that he's actually very smart. Unless they wanted to win, in which case they would concentrate on explaining how they would do better, not obsessing over him and trying to reframe him as the only way to sell themselves.

Funny how, after Donald Trump appeared regularly for years in NYC media, the narrative about him changed completely when he dared challenge the RNCe and DNCe candidates, and especially when he beat all of them. Boy they must be really smart, if they can find a way to lose to an incompetent fool.

Sad how, rather than risk being proved wrong or liars, establishment Democrats have been praising Pence for a year. As of now, even with the "mostly BS...witch-hunt" against him, the latest Suffolk University/USA Today poll shows President Trump polls 5% better (or less badly) than the Democrats. BTW, it was funny reading how Suffolk found a way to omit that from its own press release, but if you download the actual poll PDF, it's there.

What I find frustrating is this. Partisans, instead of demanding better policies from their own party, insist on demonizing the other side. They go to unbelievable lengths, saying absurdly false things, destroying their own credibility. This happens in both major factions. Looking at the threads on PatNet, it seems to be what people want: like some sort of gladiator match, or football game, bread and circuses. Ppl blame President Trump for being a showman, but it's what they demand. They blame him for being smart enough to figure out what they want, and how to play them like puppets, letting them run to absurdities and reduce their own poll numbers below his. They compete for loyalty points within their own factions, monetizing the base rather than broadening appeal. Losing all three branches of government and most of the states to the current GOP took real determination, effort, and sacrifice.

Did anyone catch the new drip on Jr. today?

drip drip drip ... :)

Make Russia A Conspiracy Again!

curious2 says

bob2356 says

PT Barnum level master.

People call PT Barnum a Genius, Hall of Fame Entrepreneur, etc. If Barnum had got himself elected President, perhaps partisans would also have called him a "buffoon," "fool," "idiot," "incompetent," "stupid," and a fascist, and (paradoxically) also a Russian agent. And maybe they would have gone bonkers whenever anyone pointed out that he's actually very smart. Unless they wanted to win, in which case they would concentrate on explaining how they would do better, not obsessing over him and trying to reframe him as the only way to sell themselves.

Funny how, after Donald Trump appeared regularly for years in NYC media, the narrative about him changed completely when he dared challenge the RNCe and DNCe candidates, and especially when he beat all of ...

"I am a showman by profession...and all the gilding shall make nothing else of me" PT Barnum

Being a genius at selling yourself and being a competent political leader aren't the same skill set. The NYC media was brutal with trump when he was falling on his ass in the 80's. I worked with some of the big NYC developers (the ones that never went into bankruptcy and didn't put themselves in the press) at that time. They universally considered trump a joke who's only skill was as a developer was riding on his fathers coattails. Trump only became really successful when he started selling himself as a brand rather than attempting to run things.

As the president of Harrah's pointed out, since Harrah's partnership with trump Harrah's has gone on to become the biggest most profitable casino owner in the world and trumps casino's are all closed in bankruptcy. Former Harrah's vice president Phil Sarte, hardly a flaming liberal, who worked with trump during the partnership with Harrah's says it all here. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/nation-now/2016/11/06/dont-vote-trump-former-harrahs-executive/93353464/

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

--------------

Maybe not just very partisan, but dick whipped by an Authoritarian. Many people are strongly attracted to an Authoritarian, and you see all the telltale signs in the Trumpcucks.

Trump incoherently mumbling on about "SUCK MY DICK AMERICA ", obviously makes the cucks dripping wet

curious2 says

Losing all three branches of government and most of the states to the current GOP took real determination, effort, and sacrifice.

But the Democrats were up to the challenge! From the recent comments of our TDS posters in this thread and others, they still haven't learned their lesson. In fact, they probably are incapable of learning it! This could be viewed as a good thing, since it practically assures they'll continue to be big fat losers in upcoming elections. However, I happen to believe that America works best with an opposing party that is able to counter bad partisan ideas with better ideas. Currently we don't have that, as the Democrats have simply replaced the GOP as the party of "No" with a side order of hysterical idiocy.

Congratulations on our one-party government. It'll probably get worse before it gets better.

Goran_K says

That's TRUMP's fault?

Yes. The failure to correct the innate problems with Obamacare as drafted and passed was the Republicans fault

bob2356 says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

He is surrounded by fake news chaos everywhere, and has handled it brilliantly. This is the establishment thrashing around like a trapped alligator.

TwoScoopsMcGee says

Goran_K says

That's TRUMP's fault?

Yes. The failure to correct the innate problems with Obamacare as drafted and passed was the Republicans fault

Do you deny that Obamacare is Republican legislation, drafted by Republicans, and opposed by nothing but meaningless lip service?

errc says

Do you deny that Obamacare is Republican legislation, drafted by Republicans,

Yes. However it is nothing but the Heritage foundation plan-which was already enacted in MA. It was a repub plan- but the dems made it reality.

lostand confused says

errc says

Do you deny that Obamacare is Republican legislation, drafted by Republicans,

Yes. However it is nothing but the Heritage foundation plan-which was already enacted in MA. It was a repub plan- but the dems made it reality.

Yes, you deny this fact? That you also seem to agree with??

errc says

es, you deny this fact? That you also seem to agree with??

Nope what I am saying is it is a Heritage foundation bill. However it was not the repubs that enacted it-it was Obama and the dems-I don't think they got more than 1 repub congress man and zero senators to sign the bill-so calling it a repub bill is not true. Obama owns it-if he didn't get any repub support he should have pushed for something of his own.

But judging by the TPP and globalisation, free trade, NSA, Patriot act-methinks Obama is a Bush republican on steroids.

errc says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

Well said.

The nothingburger is thick, juicy, a slice of American cheese, lettuce, tomato, onion, with secrete sauce (noted ingredient: Russian dressing). ;)

Rew says

errc says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

Well said.

The nothingburger is thick, juicy, a slice of American cheese, lettuce, tomato, onion, with secrete sauce (noted ingredient: Russian dressing). ;)

Well Rew, let's not pretend that you rise above the partisanship. Or that you put the citizenry first before your love and unquestioning loyalty to the democrat party.

Anyone demanding a return to Representative Democracy would be looking to fix their own house before exerting so much energy on someone else's. the sheer inefficiency of such actions is UnAmerican in itself.

Being a regular working class American myself, who spends my time living and working amongst Working Class Americans, I understand why we feel misrepresented, and our liberties and freedoms under constant attack. It seems lost on you as well as most other diehards

CBOEtrader says

bob2356 says

You don't have to be partisan to say trump's presidency is in chaos. You have to be very partisan to say it isn't.

He is surrounded by fake news chaos everywhere, and has handled it brilliantly. This is the establishment thrashing around like a trapped alligator.

Perfect, I rest my case.

CBOEtrader says

I have (and do) run multiple businesses. This is total horseshit. ACA was suffocating small businesses as well as middle and upper-middle class american families. It will be repealed. This is a fact which is helping to add optimism to the markets.

Feel fee to document exactly how the ACA is suffocating your small business.

Why will repealing the ACA that is suffocating small business help add optimism to the stock market which by definition big business. Any company big enough to be public has health care already that had small affects from the ACA of 1-2% increase in premiums mostly from adding dependants to 26 and elimination of lifetime caps. Getting that 1-2% of premium costs back isn't going to make much of a difference to any public companies bottom line.