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Why Democrats Lost

By curious2   2014 Nov 7, 11:14am   6 links   46,451 views   96 comments   watch (2)   quote      

Most Americans have not become Republicans, but gave up voting for Democrats who accomplished little other than imposing Obamacare, of which most Americans disapprove. I have given up trying to explain to Democrats the need for introspection, and the need to acknowledge the failure of a disastrous policy error. Democrats have now lost 15 seats in the Senate and 65 in the House, but still refuse to consider the possibility that they might have done something wrong, so I will simply let others do the talking:

"Seven in 10 people say Obamacare had bad or zero impact on US"

"Surprise Medical Bills: After Surgery, Surprise $117,000 Medical Bill From Doctor He Didn’t Know"

"Costs Can Go Up Fast When E.R. Is in Network but the Doctors Are Not"

"Patients’ Costs Skyrocket; Specialists’ Incomes Soar"

"Unable to Meet the Deductible or the Doctor"

"The Cost of Cancer Drugs"

"Americans Fear Being Swamped by Medical Debt"

The articles above are from 2014. The articles below describe the pre-existing condition that Democrats promised to solve but instead worsened:

"As Hospital Prices Soar, a Stitch Tops $500"

"How American Health Care Killed My Father"

"Long Term Care Insurance"

#politics

« First     « Previous     Comments 57-96 of 96     Last »

57   Tenpoundbass   1417/1419 = 99% civil   2014 Nov 9, 12:43am  ↑ like (6)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

Why do you guys argue with Iwog, time has already won every argument we ever had. You can't debate people hopped up on Liberalism and force fed bullshit.

Obamacare is GREAT Iwog, and best of all the lines are short.
Go have it buddy, take all you want, you can have our share too. And the bills along with it. You're the WINNER!

58   Tenpoundbass   1417/1419 = 99% civil   2014 Nov 9, 12:46am  ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (3)   quote    

debyne says

I agree that Fox News and the right wing media has dumbed down the public into thinking Obamacare is socialized medicine...it's sad.

The only brainwashing dumbing down of dishonesty, is the Democrats trying to claim they lost because the 2/3rds of the disgusted voters didn't show up to vote, because they are all FOX viewers.

And again...

If that IS the case, how about showing them a little more respect, or do you plan getting them to vote in 2016 by calling them idiots and misinformed?

59   Tenpoundbass   1417/1419 = 99% civil   2014 Nov 9, 12:49am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

At least the Republicans did soul searching in '08 and after '12.

Stay scrong Liberals, stay scrong!

60   Bellingham Bill   119/119 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 1:51am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

CBO is projecting a $21.5T economy in 2022

$5T of that is 23%.

This rise from the current 16%+ is to be expected; the 80M baby boomers are age 50 to 68 now and will be 58 to 76 in 2022.

Hello health care boom!

61   Tenpoundbass   1417/1419 = 99% civil   2014 Nov 9, 2:23am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Bellingham Bill says

CBO is projecting a $21.5T economy in 2022

And in every board room in America, the topic of meetings, is how much of that share can they get. By cutting hours, automating production, and synthesizing materials. You guys better get to investing in those companies, your jobs just aren't going to dissolve themselves.

62   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 5:55am  ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

debyne says

We will always have health care inflation as long as we, as the public, continue to want the latest technology and innovation in medical devices, pharmaceuticals and advanced procedures.

In all other sectors, advancing technology produces better results at lower cost. The issue comes down to who defines "better results:" the medical industrial complex is designed to maximize revenue, so better results from that POV means more revenue. Better results for people, including better value for money, would be possible if even one of the two major parties prioritized that. Neither does.

63   Peter P   78/78 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 6:36am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

iwog says

Do the vast majority support eliminating pre-existing conditions?

Practically everybody has some pre-existing conditions. They were simply an excuse for insurance companies to perform post-claim underwriting and deny coverage.

Obamacare eliminates pre-existing conditions. This alone is worthwhile.

Healthcare is expensive for many reasons. Here are a few things that will lower costs:

1. Single-payer system
2. Tort reform
3. H-1B doctors and nurses

64   smaulgld   18/18 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 6:42am  ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Peter P says

Obamacare eliminates pre-existing conditions. This alone is worthwhile.

Absoutely not! That issue along with getting insurance for the uninsured could have been dealt with without creating a billion dollar web site and massive bureacracy

65   Peter P   78/78 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 6:48am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

smaulgld says

Peter P says

Obamacare eliminates pre-existing conditions. This alone is worthwhile.

Absoutely not! That issue along with getting insurance for the uninsured could have been dealt with without creating a billion dollar web site and massive bureacracy

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody. Otherwise, only those with pre-existing conditions will buy insurances.

Alas, the whole concept of healthcare insurance is ridiculous. Everybody needs some medical care.

Can I buy sunshine insurance in California?

66   smaulgld   18/18 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 6:59am  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Peter P says

Alas, the whole concept of healthcare insurance is ridiculous. Everybody needs some medical care.

That is the argument for single payer not for obama care

67   smaulgld   18/18 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 7:01am  ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Peter P says

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody. Otherwise, only those with pre-existing conditions will buy insurances.

Basically that is the loop hole in Obama care. Many people will forego the insurance and pay the fine if its cheaper and then if they get sick or need expensive treatment, sign up and not be denied for a pre existing condition- the law was not well thought out.
Indeed the supreme court had to save the "law" by calling it a "tax"

68   Peter P   78/78 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 7:02am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (4)   quote    

smaulgld says

Peter P says

Alas, the whole concept of healthcare insurance is ridiculous. Everybody needs some medical care.

That is the argument for single payer not for obama care

Obamacare is not ideal but it is one step closer to a better system.

69   Peter P   78/78 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 7:02am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

smaulgld says

Peter P says

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody. Otherwise, only those with pre-existing conditions will buy insurances.

Basically that is the loop hole in Obama care. Many people will forego the insurance and pay the fine if its cheaper and then if they get sick or need expensive treatment, sign up and not be denied for a pre existing condition- the law was not well thought out.

Indeed the supreme court had to save the "law" by calling it a "tax"

Hopefully more people will see the light and strive for a single-payer system.

70   smaulgld   18/18 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 7:09am  ↑ like (5)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Peter P says

Hopefully more people will see the light and strive for a single-payer system.

Because the government so painfully botched this version of an attempt of health insurance, the appetite for another comprehensive try will be limited

71   Peter P   78/78 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 7:30am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

smaulgld says

Because the government so painfully botched this version of an attempt of health insurance, the appetite for another comprehensive try will be limited

I don't know, I thought any enterprising conservative would balk at the notion of tying healthcare to employment.

Universal healthcare is simply another form of national defense.

72   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 7:43am  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Peter P says

You cannot eliminate the concept of pre-existing conditions without covering everybody.

Democrats parrot insurers' "adverse selection" argument in isolation, illustrating the difference between "the truth" and "the whole truth;" in reality, propitious selection and subsidies can outweigh adverse selection. The insurance industry evolved over centuries without mandates. No other country on earth levies a tax/penalty on ordinary individuals for not buying insurance; the nearest parallel might be Australia, where persons with exceptionally high incomes incur a 1% surcharge (less than half the Obamacare penalty) for not buying. The individual mandate was unnecessary from a public perspective but it gave unprecedented power to the politicians and lobbyists who wrote it on behalf of their corporate sponsors.

Peter P says

Universal healthcare is simply another form of national defense.

Neither major party sees it that way. As part of Obamacare and "stimulus," the federal government bought flu vaccines but refused to give them to actual people. Instead, the administration gave the vaccines to corporate sponsors to sell at a profit, and the providers charged more than the market would bear, so more than 70 million vaccines expired unused while more than 10,000 Americans died of H1N1 and hundreds of thousands were hospitalized enriching the Chicago-based AHA. "Thanks, Obamacare!" By far the biggest beneficiaries of that legislation have been the revenue recipients and the Republican party.

73   smaulgld   18/18 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 9, 9:55am  ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Peter P says

Universal healthcare is simply another form of national defense.

Well then the conservative solution will be to bring healthcare to Iraq and Syria first before they bring it here!

74   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 12, 5:23pm  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

75   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch     2014 Nov 12, 7:19pm  ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike   quote    

curious2 says

Instead, the administration gave the vaccines to corporate sponsors to sell at a profit, and the providers charged more than the market would bear, so more than 70 million vaccines expired unused while more than 10,000 Americans died of H1N1 and hundreds of thousands were hospitalized enriching the Chicago-based AHA.

Why do you hate Free enterprise?

76   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 13, 5:22am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

CBS has the Wisconsin story too, in case the "Dislike"r above didn't believe the NY Daily News:

"There's no definitive data on how often patients are taken to hospitals not covered by insurance, but officials at St. Mary's said they believe Rothbauer's case is hardly isolated.

"I think what people don't often realize is that healthcare is primarily a business," Gaines said. "The reality is that until you get sick and you have to use an insurance policy you can't and don't understand what it is about."

But above all, one thing is clear.

"I'm most frustrated that I didn't have a choice," Rothbauer said. "I didn't have a choice then and don't have a choice now.""

Democrats cling to their belief in this legislation as fervently and desperately as religious fanatics cling to their belief in eternal life through Crusade/Jihad/whatever. I've racked up more than a dozen Dislikes in this thread alone, mainly for quoting accurately reported facts. Simply quoting a report of this woman's story got Disliked. Democrats don't want to understand why a majority of Americans are now turning to Republicans. It's like not wanting to understand a train wreck, oh it's nobody's fault, trains just wreck, or the train didn't wreck and anybody who claims to have been injured by it is lying. The issue is, a majority of Americans disapprove of the legislation, often with legitimate reasons why, and many of them vote. Since enacting this legislation, Democrats have fallen numerically to their lowest (in share of elected officials) in more than a century, and yet they refuse even to consider that they might possibly have a problem.

77   errc   714/723 = 98% civil   2014 Nov 13, 5:43am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

The democrats problem is that the voters are too stupid. Ask yourself one question. Is your mother a dumb ass tea bagger? If so, You have every right to blame all the world's problems on republicans.

No, the problem isn't that democrats were stupid enough to think x that Americans are stupid enough to support heritage foundation care, So long as its called ohblahblah

78   AverageBear     2014 Nov 13, 11:33am  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

I think the Dems lost because Obama lied to us. In order to get a smaller group of uninsured covered, he had to fuck over a really big group with insurance. And how did he do it? He had to lie: Save $2500, keep your plan, keep your doctor. The arm-twisting at the 11th hour to get it passed... It's that simple.

Defend Obamacare all you want. Every Dem trying to keep their job wanted to hide their record of supporting Obama, and wanted him far fuckin AWAY from their campaign.... And Nov 4th proved them right....

79   Blurtman   566/566 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 13, 12:14pm  ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

The Loretta Lynch nomination demonstrates how out of touch the Dems are.

80   APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch     2014 Nov 13, 1:35pm  ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

Now we can enjoy the Congress demanding Hank Paulson be reappointed Secretary of the Treasury five times a day and Mark Foley wandering around the pages office offering to autograph the boys' dicks.

81   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 13, 2:32pm  ↑ like (4)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Mark Foley

Don't forget Senator Emeritus Larry Craig, who will be the nation's new Restroom Security Inspector, traveling tirelessly from one airport toilet to the next, searching for terrorists with whom he can practice his wide stance.

The question is not whether the Republicans are bad or horrible or both; the question is, how did the Democrats lose to those guys, and what can Democrats do differently next time. Hint: maybe reconsider the policy that polls between -10 and -20...

82   dublin hillz   16/16 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 14, 3:32am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

I think that the biggest backlash to ACA must be due to costs. For example, if someone does not have health insurance from their job and their income is too high to qualify for subsidies, DINKS could easily fork over $500 per month, a couple with 1 child would spend in the $600s and a couple with 2 kids will pay almost $800 per month for a bronze plan according to Covered California. That is a rather hefty sum that could and would be lifestyle affecting to many people especially to those who just make enough not to qualify for a subsidy.

83   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 14, 3:44am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

dublin hillz says

the biggest backlash to ACA must be due to costs.

I quoted a 2010 article with data supporting that view, and got 3 Dislikes for my effort.

A deeper issue though is that the legislation changes, in a fundamental way, the relationship between the federal government and individual citizens. It is like the closing of the western frontier in the 19th century. Since 2010, for the first time, executives and lobbyists for one industry sector have converted your government into their tool to compel you to buy their products and "services" at prices no one else in the world would pay. From their POV, you are cattle in a feedlot, and the purpose of your life is to maximize their revenue, and your government agrees with them. Most of the money goes to waste, fraud, and abuse, as multiple measures confirm, but that's the point. The additional markup is shared out via lobbyists to political patronage networks, so the game continues.

84   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2014 Nov 25, 5:18am  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Since Democrats don't listen to me on this issue, please go Dislike Democratic Senator Schumer instead:

"Democrats Erred by Acting on Health Care in 2010, Schumer Says
***
“Unfortunately, Democrats blew the opportunity the American people gave them” in electing Obama and a Democratic Congress in 2008 amid a recession, Schumer of New York said in a speech in Washington.
***
He said he opposed the timing of the health-care vote and was overruled by other party members.
***
“The rollout was a glaring example of government’s ineffectiveness and became the perfect anecdote for the Republicans' anti-government argument,” he said.

Partisans tend to blame the messenger rather than consider the message. Since 2009, Democrats have been saying Obamneycare would be either popular or forgotten by 2010; it's now 2014, and Grubercare continues to poll at -10. Maybe, just maybe, somebody might consider that the problem is Grubercare itself, rather than the messengers (voters) who disapprove of it.

85   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2016 Apr 12, 3:37pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

A recent comment persuaded me it's time to bump this thread by going through my 157 posts on PatNet and linking the ones that relate to Obamneycare. I count 24 that relate directly, plus eight that relate indirectly via the medical sector, total 32 out of 157. That's 20%, which happens to be the share of GDP that Americans spend on the medical sector.

CBO: Repealing Individual Mandate Would Save $30B/yr

Brian Schweitzer: Obamacare "will collapse on its own weight"

Flaws could expose Obamacare user data

You can't keep your drugs under Obamacare

Obamacare enrollees hit snags at doctor's offices

Doctor Became the Most Miserable Profession

massive prescription price hikes

SSRIs in pregnancy tied to autism, delays

Kids' Diabetes Rates Up Dramatically

Oregon gives up on troubled Obamneycare exchange, joins U.S. site

Hawaii ends Obamneycare Connector

900,000 get wrong tax info in latest Obamneycare snafu

Obamacare partly delayed

Mammograms under 60 don't reduce deaths

3 Unions: Obamacare will destroy health

Another union turns against Obamacare

Unions Wary of Obamacare, Roofers call for repeal, Republicans for more $

Obamacare question: "balance billing"

Et tu, Cepa? Et tu?

A Sale of Two Parties

Lie of the Year: 'If you like your health care plan, you can keep it'

Even Mild Hits to the Head Might Harm the Brain

app as effective at testing eyesight as optician's clinic

Referendum on Obamacare?

These don't mention Obamneycare directly, but relate to the larger system that Obamneycare took over and promised to "reform" by empowering the entrenched industry players with infinite revenue that they can use to finance political patronage networks and crush innovation that might disrupt their revenue models:

Hospital chain allegedly admitted patients fraudulently to make more $$$

Hackers steal millions' data via hospital computers

Avoid American Hospitals especially in July

Labs settle unnecessary testing claims

12 million Americans misdiagnosed each year

1/4 of CA foster kids on psychotropic Rx drugs

Depression therapies overrated

Parkinson's Disease research

86   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2016 May 15, 3:18pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

"Obamacare's 2017 Insurer Rate Requests Are Starting to Stream in, and the Figures Are Scary
***
UnitedHealth Group (NYSE:UNH), the largest insurer in the U.S., recently announced that it would be vacating a majority of the 34 states it's currently operating in beginning in 2017... Also, more than half of all of Obamacare's approved healthcare cooperatives closed up shop heading into 2016 due to unsustainable losses and an insufficiently funded risk corridor, which was designed to protect money-losing insurers by taking money from insurers that were raking in the dough hand over fist.
***
Recently, two states -- Virginia and Oregon -- lifted the covers on preliminary rate requests from insurers in 2017. Note the emphasis on "preliminary", as double-digit percentage rate hike requests will need to be approved by each state's respective Office of the Insurance Commissioner.
***
Virginia's rate request data is still trickling in, and it very well could change many times over prior to the start of open enrollment -- but according to Obamacare data aggregators ACASignUps.net, the weighted average of the 13 received rate requests is nearly 18%.
***
Oregon...released proposed health insurance rate requests earlier this month...three health plans comprise practically three-quarters of all enrollees in Oregon's individual Obamacare marketplace, implying a weighted average increase per ACASignUps.net of 27%!"

Obamneycare boosters chanted talking points about "double-digit" annual increases from a decade ago, claiming Obamneycare would end that. In reality, the legislation was designed to increase prices, and it is operating as designed. "Winning!"

87   zzyzzx   983/983 = 100% civil   2016 May 15, 5:47pm  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

curious2 says

etter results for people, including better value for money, would be possible if even one of the two major parties prioritized that. Neither does

Trump does:
https://www.donaldjtrump.com/positions/healthcare-reform

88   jazz_music   876/877 = 99% civil   2016 May 15, 7:04pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (2)   quote    

Quoted below from your link. This is the meaty part near the top.

... websites that don’t work, greater rationing of care, higher premiums, less competition and fewer choices. Obamacare has raised the economic uncertainty of every single person residing in this country. As it appears Obamacare is certain to collapse of its own weight, the damage done by the Democrats and President Obama, and abetted by the Supreme Court, will be difficult to repair unless the next President and a Republican congress lead the effort to bring much-needed free market reforms ...

Websites is the first thing mentioned here, hmmmm. How can rationing be greater than NONE for so many prior to affordable health care? Same argument regarding economic uncertainty. If it collapses under it's own weight it will be because the corporations already must have their $140 BBN / yr welfare that seems like heresy to even mention.

Difficult to repair, yes because of the "take this or it's going to keep being nothing" political set up going into it made this law another excuse to give away OUR money to top corporations; which is what Republicans PROUDLY do.

FREE MARKET REFORMS!!?!?!?!? Rich people sure won't have any issues getting health care will they?Doesn't this sound to you like "let's go back to "you get nothing since giving this whole show to top health corporations STILL didn't keep you from benefit.

zzyzzx says

Trump does:

How in the world do you people think a rich guy is going to come along and save us so we don't have to do anything? Where is it written that this country has to run without involvement of any of it's citizens? --and if they do call them communists while cops beat on them and cart them off.

89   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2016 May 15, 7:38pm  ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

jazz music says

it's...it's

1) Please learn the difference between "it's" and "its"
2) Free market reforms could help enormously for everything other than vaccines and true emergencies, which add up to less than 10% of annual medical spending. What I don't see in Donald Trump's proposal is how to handle vaccines and true emergencies, where we tend to see market failure because (a) vaccines are mostly a public good, like national defense, and (b) true emergencies don't allow time to shop around.

I would really like to see an honest debate between serious candidates proposing real solutions, but instead we get political theater more like reality TV than actual reality. Candidates campaign on reality TV and, if elected, govern in actual reality. Donald Trump's reality TV background helped him get the nomination, but pretending he's nothing other than "a rich guy" or a reality TV star doesn't help. The real question is, what would he do about vaccines and true emergencies? We've experienced Hillary's Plan, and we've heard Bernie's (arguably better but more expensive), but what would Donald's plan be? If it's only "free market," then that probably won't work in those two areas.

Also, his tax deductions (aka tax subsidies) for "insurance" remind me of the mortgage interest deduction (MID), which mainly enables sellers to charge higher prices, especially in markets where supply is restricted. If legislators can continue to tack on an endless list of disproven chronic treatments for "health maintenance" that insurance must cover, then their corporate sponsors will continue to capture the benefit of the deduction (aka tax subsidy). Even if we allow insurance companies to sell true insurance, i.e. coverage against true emergencies, their corporate sponsors will continue to capture any "benefit" from the tax deduction (aka tax subsidy) as long as they can continue to charge unlimited prices for emergencies. I would like to see that issue debated as well, though I doubt that will happen, because neither side would dare question the MID.

90   jazz_music   876/877 = 99% civil   2016 May 15, 9:29pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

Its (without an apostrophe) is a possessive pronoun, like his or her.

It's (with an apostrophe in front of the s) is a contraction of "it is" or occasionally "it has." The apostrophe in it's is a mark of omission, not possession. (See the usage notes below.)

91   jazz_music   876/877 = 99% civil   2016 May 15, 9:46pm  ↑ like   ↓ dislike (1)   quote    

When I hear talk of free market it is from people who have the means to rig the outcomes because we have such woeful leverage to participate in a negotiation that we have been relegated (like children) to accepting the standing offer of nothing by the Republican party.

Republicans champion something popular sounding (e.g. "no child left behind") only when it primarily funnels 1) wealth to the donor class or 2) power to the party to convince believers (like children) that the only adult thing to do is to vote against their own interest.

NCLB establishes a gauntlet of standardized tests which effects privatization of schools that are found noncompliant with the required successful test metrics.

92   zzyzzx   983/983 = 100% civil   2016 May 16, 5:13am  ↑ like (3)   ↓ dislike   quote    

93   zzyzzx   983/983 = 100% civil   2016 May 16, 5:16am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

94   zzyzzx   983/983 = 100% civil   2016 May 16, 9:03am  ↑ like (2)   ↓ dislike   quote    

95   curious2   1128/1128 = 100% civil   2016 Nov 9, 12:36am  ↑ like (1)   ↓ dislike   quote    

In 2008, Americans elected Democrats to control both houses of Congress and the White House. In 2010, Democrats enacted this disaster. Now, Democrats have lost everything.

I feel truly sorry to have failed to persuade Democrats to reconsider. In my defense, we live in a partisan era of "safe zones," where people recite their preferred partisan narrative and ignore facts that might "trigger" them.

Republicans campaigned on repealing this legislation, and won. Democrats campaigned on keeping it, and lost.

We will see what America loses along with it.

96   rpanic01   181/181 = 100% civil   2016 Nov 9, 3:11am  ↑ like   ↓ dislike   quote    

Hillary was the worse possible candidate period. Nobody wanted another Bush or Clinton. She reeked of corruption.

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