patrick.net

Looks like my kids come through to save me a little money. I’m about $500 ahead with the plans. Otherwise the plans would cost me money. Thank God for the child tax credits!

"Fairness" is a horrible standard to use when designing a tax plan. It's completely subjective and ones' interpretation of what is "fair" will vary widely from person to person.

A tax plan should be designed to reward the type of behavior that helps the economy and penalizes the types of behavior that harm the economy.

eg, reward hard work, penalize rent seeking.

I'd break even while my parents would eventually lose out due to medicare cuts, and the country would slide further into debt. I made a thread a while back asking why it wouldn't be better to reform and cut corporate taxes. The majority on this board were against such an idea. Couple it with a modest tax cut and shell game (rearranging the chairs) on the middle class, and suddenly, Trump fans approve. It ought to be coupled with an increase in taxes on investment income, since individuals are the ones who actually benefit from profit. That way, the corporations would bring the money back to the States, but it would be taxed appropriately.

anon_8f378 says

"Fairness" is a horrible standard to use when designing a tax plan. It's completely subjective and ones' interpretation of what is "fair" will vary widely from person to person.

A tax plan should be designed to reward the type of behavior that helps the economy and penalizes the types of behavior that harm the economy.

eg, reward hard work, penalize rent seeking.

No it's not to reward anything as this leads to crony capitalism, lobbyism and bubbles. It simply should take the absolute lowest amount of taxes from everybody. The point about rent seeking is well taken, but it currently is prevalent exactly because of the deductions.

Sniper says

Fucking White Male says

NewOldUser says

For all the renters here: you do realize that your gains can now be freely converted into rent increases by your landlords, right?

Landlords can only raise rents to what the market will bear.

So if all the tenants have additional free cash, why won't they go after it?

They will in markets that are under built.

However, in most places, landlords will still be competing against other landlords. When rents go high enough, buildings go up(Look at Downtown LA once average rents crossed the $2k per month threshhold....buildings are going up and it just wont stop).

mell says

anon_8f378 says

"Fairness" is a horrible standard to use when designing a tax plan. It's completely subjective and ones' interpretation of what is "fair" will vary widely from person to person.

A tax plan should be designed to reward the type of behavior that helps the economy and penalizes the types of behavior that harm the economy.

eg, reward hard work, penalize rent seeking.

No it's not to reward anything as this leads to crony capitalism, lobbyism and bubbles. It simply should take the absolute lowest amount of taxes from everybody. The point about rent seeking is well taken, but it currently is prevalent exactly because of the deductions.

Its gross really.

A "landlord" could buy a bank owned property cash for a huge discount(and lets assume its in non livable condition). Said landlord could deem market rent to be $2000 per month and let the property just sit, vacant. Maybe run a craigslist ad and just not respond to any inquiries. $24,000 tax deduction off their personal federal tax liability each year. Assuming the 25% tax bracket, thats an actual $6K per year less taxes paid by that person.

mell says

No it's not to reward anything as this leads to crony capitalism, lobbyism and bubbles. It simply should take the absolute lowest amount of taxes from everybody. The point about rent seeking is well taken, but it currently is prevalent exactly because of the deductions.

Lowest taxes for everyone is a meaningless statement. We're talking about how to structure the tax plan to generate the needed revenue, whatever that number is.

Fiscal policy absolutely needs to be structured in a way to offset and control some of the less desirable natural features of capitalism.

KimJongUn says

Fucking White Male says

HEYYOU says

KimJongUn says

I'll lose between $250 and $500 depending on the bill version. Motherfuckers.

That's an insult to Motherfuckers! lol

REPUBLICANS RAISE TAXES!
Do you know who your enemy is?

I know who my enemy is: my one-time cost of Prop30 getting into effect (retro-fucking-actively) was $12K.

Prop 30 won by about 1.5 million votes, majority voted for it, so residents of california must accept if they choose to live here. Moreover, this increase basically only targets millionaires in a serious way. Previously everyone paid 9.3% max marginal unless they were millionaires when they paid 10.3% marginal. Now, people pay as follows:

Proposition 30 instituted the following changes:

Raised California’s sales tax to 7.5 percent from 7.25 percent, a 3.45 percent increase over the previous policy, between January 1, 2013 and December 31, 2016. (Under the Brown Tax Hike, the sales tax would have increased to 7.75 percent.)[3][4]
Created four high-income tax brackets for taxpayers with taxable incomes exceeding $250,000, $300,000, $500,000 and $1,000,000. This increased tax was set to be in effect for seven years.[3][5][6]
Imposed a 10.3 percent tax rate on taxable income over $250,000 but less than $300,000—an increase of 10.6 percent over the previous policy of 9.3 percent. The 10.3 percent income tax rate was previously paid only by taxpayers with over $1 million in taxable income.[7]
Imposed an 11.3 percent tax rate on taxable income over $300,000 but less than $500,000—an increase of 21.5 percent over the previous policy of 9.3 percent.
Imposed a 12.3 percent tax rate on taxable income over $500,000 up to $1,000,000—an increase of 32.26 percent over the previous policy of 9.3 percent.
Imposed a 13.3 percent tax rate on taxable income over $1,000,000—an increase of 29.13 percent over the previous "millionaires tax" policy of 10.3 percent.
Since this proposition was passed in November 2012, the income tax applied retroactively to all income earned or received after January 1, 2012.
Based on California Franchise Tax Board data for 2009, the additional income tax was imposed on the top 3 percent of California taxpayers.[8]

Also, no single household making under 250K or married filing with joint household under 500K is affected. If these people are as ballers as they act that they are they can easily afford this increase. It's funny these people sometimes act all cheapskate and complain about gas tax when it probably won't cost them more that $1 per day. For gods sakes, stinginess is not a virtue, it's not like they are check to checking living under the fence.

anon_bb95f says

If these people are as ballers as they act that they are they can easily afford this increase. It's funny these people sometimes act all cheapskate and complain about gas tax when it probably won't cost them more that $1 per day. For gods sakes, stinginess is not a virtue, it's not like they are check to checking living under the fence.

Would love to know who you are, as this is a HORRIBLE argument for your position, usually only put forward by government staffers.

anon_bb95f says

Also, no single household making under 250K or married filing with joint household under 500K is affected.

The calculator disagrees.

Fucking White Male says

anon_bb95f says

If these people are as ballers as they act that they are they can easily afford this increase. It's funny these people sometimes act all cheapskate and complain about gas tax when it probably won't cost them more that $1 per day. For gods sakes, stinginess is not a virtue, it's not like they are check to checking living under the fence.

Would love to know who you are, as this is a HORRIBLE argument for your position, usually only put forward by government staffers.

I work in private sector. I do however strongly believe in unions, both private and public. Essentially, whoever benefits from prop 30 tax increase benefits so more that the taxpayer who is "hurt" by this increase. These people who have to pay more under prop 30 make lots of money, they won't even feel it. Meanwhile these increases can fund lots of government jobs that help our society. Also, if you notice the usual suspects aka Jarvis Foundation opposed this plan...that tells us all that we need to know.

anon_bb95f says

Meanwhile these increases can fund lots of government jobs that help our society.

Help how? CA schools are shittiest in the nation despite all the money poured into them.

anon_bb95f says

Fucking White Male says

anon_bb95f says

If these people are as ballers as they act that they are they can easily afford this increase. It's funny these people sometimes act all cheapskate and complain about gas tax when it probably won't cost them more that $1 per day. For gods sakes, stinginess is not a virtue, it's not like they are check to checking living under the fence.

Would love to know who you are, as this is a HORRIBLE argument for your position, usually only put forward by government staffers.

I work in private sector. I do however strongly believe in unions, both private and public. Essentially, whoever benefits from prop 30 tax increase benefits so more that the taxpayer who is "hurt" by this increase. These people who have to pay more under prop 30 make lots of money, the...

Wow.

KimJongUn says

The calculator disagrees.

That stat about 250K/500K was only about california Prop 30. Regarding Trump's tax plan - it's clear that he and his apparatchiks are trying to punish "lexus liberals" who live primarily in CA and New York/Jersey. However, there will be serious collateral damage among wealthy core republicans especially those who live in orange county. Talk about irony - they primarily voted for him hoping for a tax cut only to be slammed with a tax increase....

anon_313db says

KimJongUn says

The calculator disagrees.

That stat about 250K/500K was only about california Prop 30. Regarding Trump's tax plan - it's clear that he and his apparatchiks are trying to punish "lexus liberals" who live primarily in CA and New York/Jersey. However, there will be serious collateral damage among wealthy core republicans especially those who live in orange county. Talk about irony - they primarily voted for him hoping for a tax cut only to be slammed with a tax increase....

Again a ridiculous position by you. California and NY/NJ are about as far away from electing Trump as it gets, regardless of how many Republicans in those states vote for him. .

anon_313db says

However, there will be serious collateral damage among wealthy core republicans especially those who live in orange county. Talk about irony - they primarily voted for him hoping for a tax cut only to be slammed with a tax increase....

There is no irony to talk about because their vote didn't matter one iota in this God-forsaken gone-to-donkey-shit state.

KimJongUn says

There is no irony to talk about because their vote didn't matter one iota in this God-forsaken gone-to-donkey-shit state.

Their vote did not matter, but they certainly did not matter to trump. Just placed on the altar to be sacrificed to Baal.

anon_bb95f says

KimJongUn says

There is no irony to talk about because their vote didn't matter one iota in this God-forsaken gone-to-donkey-shit state.

Their vote did not matter, but they certainly did not matter to trump. Just placed on the altar to be sacrificed to Baal.

Meaningless word gymnastics.

mell says

It's not socialist. The opposite is socialist, having itemizations benefitting some at the expense of others, That is socialism. No deduction at all or the same standard deduction for everybody only levels the playing field and upholds equal opportunity without fostering bubbles. There are absolutely zero reasons except for crony capitalism / socialism to allow a homeowner to deduct mortgage interest for their homes but not to allow a stock investor to deduct their margin interest. Or a piano collector to deduct their interest from debt accrued from buying pianos.

sounds like you can't itemize much so you hate seeing other who can itemize and come out better than you. that is pure jealousy.
"if i can't take advantage of it no one can" bullshit.

by your pick & choose what can and cannot be deducted, you demonstrated a very poor grasp of the how the government use taxes to encourage economy growth as a whole. investing in stocks does nothing for growing the economy. buying a house will because it creates jobs for a lot of people. you are just angry because you can't afford a house.

same thing they'll give you tax breaks for having kids and helping produce a future work force or take out a student loan and not a personal loan. nothing crony capitalism about any of these. you spend money on growing the economy in a way not many are willing to do (like opening a business or hiring) or benefiting society as a whole (teaching expenses as you mentioned), you get a tax deduction. that is the essence of the tax deductions. instead of complaining no fair you should think more objectively and stop having a victim mentality.

Updated version of Senate Bill is much better. Please try the calculator again to see what shakes out.

NewOldUser says

Updated version of Senate Bill is much better. Please try the calculator again to see what shakes out.

Not a single person knows the full details of what is in the plan that just passed the senate vote. Not a single soul. It's over 450 pages, with hand written annotations in the columns, and lobbyist pork added all over it just in the past 4 hours.

What it may do for taxes in income it doesn't at all do for other deductions the plebeian underclasses use, and it is "soft repeal" of the ACA to boot.

Anything you are using as calculation right now, isn't even 1/4 of the story of what this bill is. Your income taxes may go down, but unless you are a many-times-over multimillionaire, you probably just lost ... because the majority of the American people and consumers lost tonight.

Rew says

Your income taxes may go down, but unless you are a many-times-over multimillionaire, you probably just lost ... because the majority of the American people and consumers lost tonight.

Yeah right. So you must be God, because you claimed this.
Rew says

Not a single person knows the full details of what is in the plan that just passed the senate vote. Not a single soul.

lostand confused says

Yeah right. So you must be God, because you claimed this.

If you believe the idle rich will "trickle down", than you can just call me wrong, and move on. If you think I believe this bill is bad, simply because it was created by the GOP congress, and that I am only partisan in my position, you can stop reading now.

--

From what I have managed to read of the bill, and what I can see from reporting on the process used, the following is clear:

A) This wasn't a "tax bill", alone
B) Its primary intent was NOT helping the middle class
C) It makes the growing economic inequality in the nation worse. (i.e. this is not a bill that will fuel economic growth.)

The bill's primary motivation was to give back to donors and reduce taxes on inheritances. It had over 6 thousand lobbyists actually working on it. During this legislative push, multiple congressional members have stated motivations of giving back to their donors.

Yes, many of us will be up a few thousand on income taxes. We will lose elsewhere, in greater amount. Because this bill benefits fewer individuals than it helps and it pays for it by running up the deficit by 1 Trillion dollars.

A society where private jets have more tax exemption than school supplies, and where a 40K pension has a higher tax rate, than a multi-million dollar inheritance, is one doomed to fail.

We all lost, even those that think they won.

Sniper says

You and the whole Dem party are partisan in your positions. Why dance around that fact?

Please explain why the Senate bill got approved exactly down party lines, that only one Repub didn't vote for it and EVERY Dem didn't vote for it? You want us to believe that not a single Dem Senator saw anything good in the plan?

You think if there's one good thing and 1000 bad things, a senator should vote for it?

This bill was a complete piece of shit. Every non-partisan organization that has looked at it agrees. It's a complete sell-out to the 1% donors of the Republican party. Senators have even gone on record saying they have to pass this or else they will not get any donations when it comes time to run for re-election They don't even hide the fact that they are bought and paid for by the 1%. It's very sad.

But folks on here don't care because Trump says Merry Christmas.

anon_3b28c says

This bill was a complete piece of shit.

If that's the case, why didn't MORE repubs vote against it? They haven't been afraid to vote against other bills this year.

anon_3b28c says

Sniper says

You and the whole Dem party are partisan in your positions. Why dance around that fact?

Please explain why the Senate bill got approved exactly down party lines, that only one Repub didn't vote for it and EVERY Dem didn't vote for it? You want us to believe that not a single Dem Senator saw anything good in the plan?

You think if there's one good thing and 1000 bad things, a senator should vote for it?

This bill was a complete piece of shit. Every non-partisan organization that has looked at it agrees. It's a complete sell-out to the 1% donors of the Republican party. Senators have even gone on record saying they have to pass this or else they will not get any donations when it comes time to run for re-election They don't even hide the fact that they are bought and paid for by the 1%. It's very sad.

But folks on here don't care because Trump says Merry Christmas.

Link a few articles.

I assume you won't because those "non partisan organizations" are not so non partisan.

The fact is that nearly every article against the tax plan as it stand actually makes up facts and misrepresents statistics. The most basic lie is a simple one...that a tax "cut" is actually an expense or somehow a giveaway. Its like someone took an accounting class and didn't quite understand that lowering tax rates isn't an "expense",

Its a beyond preposterous position and I'm ready to label anyone who makes that argument a complete and total liar.

Sniper says

If that's the case, why didn't MORE repubs vote against it? They haven't been afraid to vote against other bills this year.

anon_3b28c says

It's a complete sell-out to the 1% donors of the Republican party. Senators have even gone on record saying they have to pass this or else they will not get any donations when it comes time to run for re-election They don't even hide the fact that they are bought and paid for by the 1%. It's very sad.

Fucking White Male says

The most basic lie is a simple one...that a tax "cut" is actually an expense or somehow a giveaway.

It's not an expense its a pay cut, which increase the amount by which the government already cannot pay its bills.

The budget score came in approximately an hour after the bill passed in the Senate. Just as standard process and norms dictate. (snicker)
https://www.jct.gov/publications.html?func=startdown&id=5046
And, the score is exactly as McConnell promised. "Should be Revenue Neutral" ... meaning it absolutely isn't.

There ARE things worth ballooning the deficit over, like an infrastructure bill, like stabilizing a collapsing economy. Tax breaks for myself and millionaires didn't make my list. Did they make yours?

The calculator has been updated with the final bill.

Ran the numbers again: yuuuge tax break for me despite deductions cap at $10K

Rew says

It's not an expense its a pay cut, which increase the amount by which the government already cannot pay its bills

Were just gonna let this sentence incubate.

anon_313db says

That stat about 250K/500K was only about california Prop 30. Regarding Trump's tax plan - it's clear that he and his apparatchiks are trying to punish "lexus liberals" who live primarily in CA and New York/Jersey. However, there will be serious collateral damage among wealthy core republicans especially those who live in orange county. Talk about irony - they primarily voted for him hoping for a tax cut only to be slammed with a tax increase....

Nope. For the first time since the Great Depression, the crony capitalists in Orange County decided their future was better in the corruptible hands of Clinton. Not since FDR!
http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-pol-ca-2016-orange-county-results/

Cheer now. Your kids will pay for all this.

anon_313db says

Regarding Trump's tax plan - it's clear that he and his apparatchiks are trying to punish "lexus liberals" who live primarily in CA and New York/Jersey.

You're learning, voting Democrat and voting for Hillary has consequences.

But in reality, it's your STATE representatives that are fucking you over in those states. Stop voting for the Blue team.

anon_313db says

Regarding Trump's tax plan - it's clear that he and his apparatchiks are trying to punish "lexus liberals" who live primarily in CA and New York/Jersey.

Well, the calculator based on the final version of the bill disagrees: they won't be "punished".

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

anon_313db says

Regarding Trump's tax plan - it's clear that he and his apparatchiks are trying to punish "lexus liberals" who live primarily in CA and New York/Jersey.

Well, the calculator based on the final version of the bill disagrees: they won't be "punished".

Calculator shows that Cali millionaire household with $18,000 property taxes (1.5 million dollar home) and $60,000 in interest costs will pay a little more than $1,000 in federal taxes than they used to. The punishment will be unbearable...

You forgot state income tax deduction.
I’m not remotely close to a millionaire but SALT deduction cap at $10K hurt my refund dramatically.


anon_7ebb1 says

Satoshi_Nakamoto says

anon_313db says

Regarding Trump's tax plan - it's clear that he and his apparatchiks are trying to punish "lexus liberals" who live primarily in CA and New York/Jersey.

Well, the calculator based on the final version of the bill disagrees: they won't be "punished".

Calculator shows that Cali millionaire household with $18,000 property taxes (1.5 million dollar home) and $60,000 in interest costs will pay a little more than $1,000 in federal taxes than they used to. The punishment will be unbearable...

All CA republican senators and House rep better brush up their resume because hey are all FIRED next election.

BorderPatrol says

All CA republican senators and House rep better brush up their resume because hey are all FIRED next election.

Except it was all the DEM elected politicians that voted for and allowed the ridiculous property taxes and state income taxes in the first place in CA.

Please focus on the real SOURCE of the problem.

Voting DEM has consequences!

BorderPatrol says

You forgot state income tax deduction.
I’m not remotely close to a millionaire but SALT deduction cap at $10K hurt my refund dramatically.

I'll call BS on this one.