patrick.net

@patrick,

I am still waiting for you to remove Goran's comment (#91), which was a personal attack.

Or maybe some of the other moderators will step in? The ones that were ensuring us that they will take care of all personal attacks, so that we don't even need a "personal" button.

marcus says

And I still say it's easy to find middle class black communities with close to zero violence, making you wrong.

Bzzt. Fail. Outliers do not make strong correlations wrong. Outliers do perhaps tell another story though.

Go find your outlier and lets see what we can glean from it.

marcus says

But that doesn't mean that middle class and black isn't nearly equal in violence to middle class and Asian.

You are making this up. Facts do not support your progressive worldview. The sooner you accept this, the sooner you can actually help someone. Asians, on average, have much lower crime rates than every other group. Middle class Asians do absolutely commit less crime than middle class blacks.

marcus says

Okay, what's your point ? What are you going to do with that ? Let's suppose your're right. How exactly is that useful ?

The original point was in refuting a poster who suggested that Republicans should be allowed to have guns so they kill themselves. I pointed out that a large majority of the murderers (and suspects) are D's.

Regardless, there is always value in speaking truth. Ask Roland Fryer, famous black harvard economist. I once heard a talk he gave in which he mentioned PC culture as a HUGE issue holding back economists in helping black communities. Specifically, the tendency to call economists racist if they study differences in cultures or come to the wrong anti-PC conclusions is an enormous detriment to actually finding a solution to the problem. This is also why he decided to study black under-achievement as his life's work.

However, the same PC culture tendencies are very literally killing people.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/11/1000-children-may-have-victims-britains-biggest-ever-child-abuse/
"authorities did not keep details of abusers from Asian communities for fear of being accused of "racism" and that police failed to investigate one recent case five times until an MP intervened."

In summary, PC culture = black deaths, and rape of little girls.

CBOEtrader says

bob2356 says

highest murder rates are in liberal gun law red states and the lowest murder rates are in strict gun law blue states.

perhaps clarify which states you are talking about? Not sure how you define liberal vs strict gun laws.

I haven't run the numbers in 2 years, but when you take murder rate and run a regression against legal gun ownership rate, there is a negative correlation. Higher legal gun ownership = lower murder rate per state. Although the relationship was nowhere near as strong as % of african americans to murder rate

Google doesn't work for you? https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/murder-rates-nationally-and-state#MRord

There are only 3 blue states in the top 20 states with the highest murder rates. Il, Md, De. All states next to states where buying guns is a joke and gun running is common.Take out Chicago, Baltimore, and Wilmington there would be no blue states in the top 20. How tough to you suppose it is to buy a gun in LA,MO,AL,MS, NV,SC,TN,AK which are all top 10 murder rates states?.



Sorry but i'm not able to see the states with the lowest murder rates having the highest gun ownership. LA,MO,AL,MS, NV,SC,TN are all top of the charts on gun ownership in in addition to having the highest murder rates. Repeating something lots of times doesn't make it true.

CBOEtrader says

Specifically, the tendency to call economists racist if they study differences in cultures or come to the wrong anti-PC conclusions is an enormous detriment to actually finding a solution to the problem.

Sounds absurd. How could attributing a social problem to race help to identify a solution ? (even if there were a correlation to race?) I can't imagine a single example.

You might say that it could bring more resources to assist that race ? But I know that's not where you're going. You might say it would put more focus on helping that race to help themselves. But I believe that awareness and focus is already there (among those in the middle and upper middle class and higher). It's not like the typical middle class/upper middle class African American is unaware of the problems with inner city blacks, single parenthood etc.

bob2356 says

Sorry but i'm not able to see the states with the lowest murder rates having the highest gun ownership.

Straw man. That's not what I said.

Run the numbers and you get gun ownership rate at a negative correlation to murder rate. Fact.

I also said % of blacks in population is FAR more correlated to murder rate. Fact.

marcus says

How could attributing a social problem to race help to identify a solution ?

Turn off the brainwashing. It us important to identify trends in groups, especially if they are negative. Identifying a problem is the only way to fix it. marcus says

Sounds absurd.

Professor Frye's career sounds absurd to you? People who care abour fellow americans disagree.

CBOEtrader says

bob2356 says

Sorry but i'm not able to see the states with the lowest murder rates having the highest gun ownership.

Straw man. That's not what I said.

Run the numbers and you get gun ownership rate at a negative correlation to murder rate. Fact

Repeating the word fact doesn't make something a fact.

Show us the numbers then. Start with LA,MS,Al vs NY,CT,MA I'll be waitng, and waiting, and waiting, and waiting.

Or are you talking about the rise in gun ownership and fall in crime since the late 90's. Snipers bullshit chart. Track the rise in crime and the rise in gun ownership that happened for 30 years before that and see how much negative correlation you come up with. Fact.

marcus says

Bull-fucking shit !!

I'd love to see that

RafiMaas says

bob2356 says

Repeating the word fact doesn't make something a fact

Fact, rightists don't understand what the word fact means.

Fact

bob2356 says

Or are you talking about the rise in gun ownership and fall in crime since the late 90's. Snipers bullshit chart. Track the rise in crime and the rise in gun ownership that happened for 30 years before that and see how much negative correlation you come up with. Fact.

CBOEtrader says

bob2356 says

Sorry but i'm not able to see the states with the lowest murder rates having the highest gun ownership.

Straw man. That's not what I said.

bob2356 says

Or are you talking about the rise in gun ownership and fall in crime since the late 90's.

No I'm talking about the murder rate by state (including DC amd PR) correlated to legal gun ownership rate. Depending on the numbers used (gun ownership rate is difficult to track and numbers vary) you get a flat to slightly negative correlation. I've also read studies suggesting correlation is mildly positive. As ive said over and over, % of blacks in the population is BY FAR a stronger predicter.

FYI I just ran numbers again from a few different sets of gun ownership and different annual murder rates. The correlation is flat to negative, depending on the data sets used. Average -.14 slope. It's interesting to point out, considering the current BAN GUNS narrative, but again as stated 5 times above, it's a weak negative correlation at best.

Culture of the population is the predictor of murders per capita, not guns per capita or even poverty levels per capita.

bob2356 says

Take out Chicago, Baltimore, and Wilmington there would be no blue states in the top 20

Cherry picked point is cherry picked.

Take out all Democrat controlled inner cities and the gun homicide rate nationally is comparable to the UK and Australia per capita.

Vermont is a blue state and has very LOOSE gun crime statistics, much much lower than California per capita.

How do you explain that?

Goran_K says

bob2356 says

Take out Chicago, Baltimore, and Wilmington there would be no blue states in the top 20

Cherry picked point is cherry picked.

Take out all Democrat controlled inner cities and the gun homicide rate nationally is comparable to the UK and Australia per capita.

Vermont is a blue state and has very LOOSE gun crime statistics, much much lower than California per capita.

How do you explain that?

Vermont is sparsely populated with the only city center type town being a college town on the Canadian border.

So lots of liberals, not so many gun nutters = low crime

errc says

Vermont is sparsely populated with the only city center type town being a college town on the Canadian border.

Wrong.

Vermont has lots of gun nutters. One of the most active NRA chapters is in Vermont, and they can own Class III NFA items (not available in California or New York).

Lots of Democrats = Lots of gun homicide

Goran_K says

errc says

Vermont is sparsely populated with the only city center type town being a college town on the Canadian border.

Wrong.

Vermont has lots of gun nutters. One of the most active NRA chapters is in Vermont, and they can own Class III NFA items (not available in California or New York).

Lots of Democrats = Lots of gun homicide

You quoted what i said, which was absolutely correct, bizarrely responded by falsely claiming i was wrong when it is easily verifiable, and then went off on some off topic tangent

Burlington has less than 50k residents, most of which are college kids

You’d be lucky to find any other towns with population larger than 10k

Not sure what comparisons you feel you can draw from Vermont, but it’s obvious you’ve never been and whatever you’re reading is confusing you

errc says

Goran_K says

errc says

Vermont is sparsely populated with the only city center type town being a college town on the Canadian border.

Wrong.

Vermont has lots of gun nutters. One of the most active NRA chapters is in Vermont, and they can own Class III NFA items (not available in California or New York).

Lots of Democrats = Lots of gun homicide

You quoted what i said, which was absolutely correct, bizarrely responded by falsely claiming i was wrong when it is easily verifiable, and then went off on some off topic tangent

Burlington has less than 50k residents, most of which are college kids

You’d be l...

So no response to the actual fact that where you find high populations of Democrats, you get sky high gun crime? Going to go onto a tangent about "Burlington having 50k residents"?

Okay!

If you disagree with the left, full force of left wing media goes to work to assault and destroy you. Yet somehow they think they stand for freedom.

Glad Trump won, someone needed to stop left wing propaganda and their anti American views.

FortWayne says

Glad Trump won, someone needed to stop left wing propaganda and their anti American views.

Just the damage Trump has done to the DNC and CNN's brand was all worth it.Everything else is icing on the cake.

The Democrat party has not seen lower opinion of its party according to Gallup EVER.

https://www.cnn.com/2017/11/07/politics/cnn-poll-republicans-democrats-taxes/index.html

Only 37% of Americans have a favorable opinion of Democrats, down from 44% in March of this year. A majority, 54%, have an unfavorable view, matching their highest mark in polls from CNN and SSRS, CNN/ORC and CNN/USA Today/Gallup stretching back to 1992.

Mind you, this was from a CNN poll. The true percentage is probably a lot lower.

As much as I can't stand SJW's and other zealous left-wing ideologues, I'm beginning to think that they serve a useful function. Namely, to counter-balance the right wing loonatics.

From now on, when I see a SJW, I'll just think: "Hey, this is the person that cancels out 2G+"

Goran_K says

Just the damage Trump has done to the DNC and CNN's brand was all worth it.Everything else is icing on the cake.

The Democrat party has not seen lower opinion of its party according to Gallup EVER.

Funny that they're winning elections in Alabama, rural PA, and all over Virginia. What's it say about the Republican brand if they are losing the generic ballot by 10 pts?

HappyGilmore says

Funny that they're winning elections in Alabama, rural PA, and all over Virginia. What's it say about the Republican brand if they are losing the generic ballot by 10 pts?

Special elections against weak candidates where the Democrat candidate was actually fairly moderate. I consider Conor Lamb a Joe Machin Democrat. Joe Machin voted for the "Stop Dangerous Sanctuary Cities Act ", and helped pass Trump's budget for fucks sake. Both support 2A, both support border security, both support immigration reform, both are not fervently anti-Trump. I have no problem with these "Democrats" holding office over some establishment Republican like Mccain or Flake.

is that really a win for leftist? I don't think so.

Also remember the DNC is the one that lost the most expensive House election of all-time.

2018 is the real barometer. So we'll see how the DNC will do when they are in debt, unable to attract donations, and have record low approval ratings.

against weak candidates

By weak candidates, you mean standard Republicans, endorsed by Trump?

errc says

against weak candidates

By weak candidates, you mean standard Republicans, endorsed by Trump?

As long as they vote the right way when it counts, I don't care if they have a (D) or an (R) before their name, that's the difference between me and partisan big party types.

Goran_K says

So no response to the actual fact that where you find high populations of Democrats, you get sky high gun crime?

I do not think that is the only variable. Austin, TX is very democratic and has little crime, so does El Paso TX - last one actually has one of lowest crime rates of big cities in US. Also, this shows that high gun concentrations does not mean high gun homicide rates - these are TX cities which means population is armed to teeth. One can also compare Chicago, IL with (politically purple and ethnically very mixed) Houston, TX which are about the same size. Heavily armed Houston has much less crime/shootings than Chicago with its gun restrictions.

It is overall pretty complicated to figure out all the reasons, but good economy correlates more with lack of crime/shootings than gun restrictions or even party affiliation.

For context:

Goran says : “Cherry picked point is cherry picked.

Take out all Democrat controlled inner cities and the gun homicide rate nationally is comparable to the UK and Australia per capita.

Vermont is a blue state and has very LOOSE gun crime statistics, much much lower than California per capita.

How do you explain that?”

Errc responds to Goran question: “Vermont is sparsely populated with the only city center type town being a college town on the Canadian border.

So lots of liberals, not so many gun nutters = low crime”.

Gorans question was answered. I easily explained that which confused him

But then, Goran falsely claimed that I was wrong.

Which I quickly proved with facts backing up my claim.

Then Goran moves the goal posts and instead of saying “i was wrong again, errc was right again, like every other time we’ve disagreed about something “, he goes on a tangent about Democrats

How do you expect civil conversation when this is how you act?

drB6 says

It is overall pretty complicated to figure out all the reasons, but good economy correlates more with lack of crime/shootings than gun restrictions or even party affiliation.

Sure there are many factors. But if weak gun restrictions is not an important factor, explain US vs other developed countries.

I'm not going to get into a troll trap.

If you can't answer the question of why all the heavy gun crime cities are Democrat dominated (and I'll be honest, most leftist wouldn't answer that question), then we can move on.

Goran_K says

Special elections against weak candidates where the Democrat candidate was actually fairly moderate. I consider Conor Lamb a Joe Machin Democrat. Joe Machin voted for the "Stop Dangerous Sanctuary Cities Act ", and helped pass Trump's budget for fucks sake. Both support 2A, both support border security, both support immigration reform, both are not fervently anti-Trump. I have no problem with these "Democrats" holding office over some establishment Republican like Mccain or Flake.

is that really a win for leftist? I don't think so.

Also remember the DNC is the one that lost the most expensive House election of all-time.

2018 is the real barometer. So we'll see how the DNC will do when they are in debt, unable to attract donations, and have record low approval ratings.

Did you see how much Republicans spent in the PA special election?? $13.3MM+. And lost. In a district they enjoy a +20 advantage. That is so unbelievable you cannot try to lessen the impact. It's why Reps are privately shitting their pants.

Lamb supports Obamacare. And unions. And wants to protect pensions. And wants to reduce inequality. He's a Dem.

Again--Dems are +10 in the generic ballot. Midterms are looking very good. At least 50/50 they take over the House.

drB6 says

I do not think that is the only variable. Austin, TX is very democratic and has little crime, so does El Paso TX - last one actually has one of lowest crime rates of big cities in US. Also, this shows that high gun concentrations does not mean high gun homicide rates - these are TX cities which means population is armed to teeth. One can also compare Chicago, IL with (politically purple and ethnically very mixed) Houston, TX which are about the same size. Heavily armed Houston has much less crime/shootings than Chicago with its gun restrictions.

It is overall pretty complicated to figure out all the reasons, but good economy correlates more with lack of crime/shootings than gun restrictions or even party affiliation.

I agree there is some nuance, but I still think the common denominator is still Democrat control. There's a reason the economy of Detroit, Baltimore, Cleveland, etc is in ruins, and why gun crime is sky high. Leftist policies in general tend to lead to hollowed out economies, or huge increases in debt, which in turn leads to a breakdown of social fabric.

HappyGilmore says

Did you see how much Republicans spent in the PA special election?? $13.3MM+. And lost. In a district they enjoy a +20 advantage. That is so unbelievable you cannot try to lessen the impact. It's why Reps are privately shitting their pants.

Lamb supports Obamacare. And unions. And wants to protect pensions. And wants to reduce inequality. He's a Dem.

Again--Dems are +10 in the generic ballot. Midterms are looking very good. At least 50/50 they take over the House.

Lamb is a 2A supporter, immigration reform supporter, who also supports lefty policies like ObamaCare, but also dislikes Pelosi and coastal elite Democrats. He's a moderate Dem like I said. That's the only reason he was competitive. Had a Pelosi or Kamala Harris run, they would have gotten blown out.

I don't consider him a loss for the country like I don't consider Joe Manchin a loss for the country. It's actually a big win that the Democrats are trying to run these moderate candidates, for everyone involved.

Goran_K says

errc says

against weak candidates

By weak candidates, you mean standard Republicans, endorsed by Trump?

As long as they vote the right way when it counts, I don't care if they have a (D) or an (R) before their name, that's the difference between me and partisan big party types.

Oh I had you confused with someone who said “leftists = Democrats “ and “leftists, never once, ever”, and was constantly criticizing democrats and only ever praising Republicans.

I’m politically agnostic myself, and you always seemed hyper partisan.

I voted Democrat in every Presidential election until 2008 when I started voting for Ron Paul. I've NEVER voted GOP in any presidential election. Obama turned the party into shit, and harmed the country enough that I left the party.

If the moderates came back, I wouldn't be against voting for them again, but as it is right now, the people who hold power in the Democrat party are hardened marxist. I would never vote for any of the Pelosi, Schumer types.

Goran_K says

I'm not going to get into a troll trap.

If you can't answer the question of why all the heavy gun crime cities are Democrat dominated (and I'll be honest, most leftist wouldn't answer that question), then we can move on.

Don’t troll, and you won’t trap yourself.

I reject the premise that “all the heavy gun crime cities are Democrat dominated”. I was helping you clean that up, first. You cannot just posit something based on a failed premise, and then ask others why they cannot answer questions on the matter.

Goran_K says

If you can't answer the question

He answered your question perfectly well. If you can't or refuse to understand the answer, then we certainly can't move on.

I'm wondering why he even bothers...

Goran_K says

Democrats/leftist are the most racist people in the country (fought to maintain slavery, formed the KKK, invented a new slavery via LBJ's "great society" movement, their entire identity politics platform).

Goran_K says

I voted Democrat in every Presidential election until 2008

LOL

errc says

Don’t troll, and you won’t trap yourself.

I reject the premise that “all the heavy gun crime cities are Democrat dominated”. I was helping you clean that up, first. You cannot just posit something based on a failed premise, and then ask others why they cannot answer questions on the matter.

You can reject it all you want. But you still haven't explained why this graph looks the way it does.

Did you learn about slavery, KKK and LBJ in 2008?

FP says

LOL

Never said I was perfect.

btw, keep your comments focused on topic, not the individual. I had to nuke another one of your comments.

FP says

Did you learn about slavery, KKK and LBJ in 2008?

Yes, I discovered a lot of the dirtiness behind the DNC around that time. I saw Obama engage in one of the most race baiting campaigns I've ever seen a presidential candidate run. It made me wonder why I was part of the party. I did a lot of reading, and made the decision to leave the party.

Goran_K says

btw, keep your comments focused on topic, not the individual. I had to nuke another one of your comments.

Don't tell me what to do. My comment should, at most, mirror yours.

@patrick

I'm not telling you what to do, just enforcing rules. You're on the borderline with your comments when it comes to making them personal. If you cut it out, I don't ever have to get rid of your comments. Just relax, it's not that serious.