patrick.net

We shouldn't be involved in no win situations. Only the industrial military complex and its political stooges want to keep it going.

rdm says

Let's fuck over the Kurds...again. sickening

Does supporting the kurds require troops on the ground in Syria?

Goran_K says

Does supporting the kurds require troops on the ground in Syria?

Nope. A-10s are quite capable of BRRRRRRTing Turkish Armored Vehicles. ;)

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Nope. A-10s are quite capable of BRRRRRRTing Turkish Armored Vehicles. ;)

Also crates of M4's and .223 ammunition can be air dropped in. Stinger missiles.

We practically destroyed the USSR by a proxy war that involved very few troops on the ground in Afghanistan.

I think Democrats will literally sacrifice American lives to be contrarian to Trump.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

Does supporting the kurds require troops on the ground in Syria?

It may as they act as a line not to cross. And if you think Trump will protect them from with airpower from a member of NATO whose dictator he loves, that isn't going to happen. This is not a simple black and white situation. But to me when you forge an alliance with people you don't abandon them. Should we be there in the first place is another question.

rdm says

Let's fuck over the Kurds...again. sickening

Kurds are the only force in Middle East (other than Israel) who are reasonable and so far secular. If the world allows Turks to fuck Kurds over a few more times, we will get another ISIS in shape of Kurdish guerillas. An example of this type is Chechens - in middle 1990's they were secular rebels, but since only Islamists supported them against Russians, now they are raging ISIS supporters and very often best ISIS commanders and troops. If tens of millions of Kurds see that only Islamists would help them against Turks or Iranians...results will be much worse than in case of a million Chechens.

Goran_K says

Democrat Party: The new War Hawks

Who are the most prominent republicans in the house, the senate, or the military establishment that support this pull out from Syria. And if so, can you point me to a good explanation as to why now ?

Is Jim Mathis a republican ?

I know I'm guilty of reading the mainstream media that only mentions the congressional republican leaders that are strongly speaking out against this. That's why I'm hoping you can tell me about the republicans that Brietbart or Fox have found that are explaining clearly why this is an awesome idea.

d6rB says

rdm says

Let's fuck over the Kurds...again. sickening

Kurds are the only force in Middle East (other than Israel) who are reasonable and so far secular. If the world allows Turks to fuck Kurds over a few more times, we will get another ISIS in shape of Kurdish guerillas. An example of this type is Chechens - in middle 1990's they were secular rebels, but since only Islamists supported them against Russians, now they are raging ISIS supporters and very often best ISIS commanders and troops. If tens of millions of Kurds see that only Islamists would help them against Turks or Iranians...results will be much worse than in case of a million Chechens.

I’ll be honest. As long as they stay over there, I don’t give a fuck. That may sound cold but we’ve got enough to deal with here and every proxy war in the past 100 years has lead to dead Americans for dubious returns.

I'm sure Goran or twoscoops can tell me why this is a great idea, but I would like to hear some government leaders or foiegn policy experts (you know people that have put at least a few hundred hours into understanding this in the past couple years). Why do they think its a good idea ?

I would think that even military analysts that think it's bad idea, know both sides and can explain the point of view of people that think it's a good idea. Can someone point me to some written analysis, so I can learn ?

(don't get me wrong - I enjoy people talking out their ass about things they know almost nothing about as much as the next guy. But surely someone out there is capable of explaining this. A summary of the background and the reason for the decision. )

I'm open to the idea that it's wise. I just haven't heard a good explanation of why it is. That is, other than Trump cucks that automatically defend what Trump does, before even thinking about it.

Goran_K says

Anyone against this is against logic.

Very good chance (almost 100%) they aren't TrumpCucks too.

rdm says

Let's fuck over the Kurds...again. sickening

Virtue signaling is hard...Can some tell me again why I'm supposed to support Kurds?

TRump says we can't be the policeman for the middle east. That makes some sense. But it begs the question why now ? After what we've done in Iraq, and what we've done fighting ISIS recently, why pull out so abruptly /

MY guess as to the answer ?

Because working to do it slowly, that is working with congress and working with our allies, doing it collaboratively, and in a way that's less harmful, means he doesn't get as much credit in the history books. The way he's doing this, it's all him !

This may even be an indication that he doesn't think he has much more time to get the things he promised he would do, done.

Sad.

komputodo says

Can some tell me again why I'm supposed to support Kurds?

In this specific instance they were acting as our ground force in Syria ( and also to some extent Iraq) in the battle against ISIS. Remember them? The terrorists that took over large parts of Syria and Iraq butchering and enslaving as they conquered the infidels. That task mostly done Tump is giving them a fuck you, Trumpian SOP. But that is how he operates. Mattis apparently has different standards.

Goran_K says

I’ll be honest. As long as they stay over there, I don’t give a fuck. That may sound cold but we’ve got enough to deal with here and every proxy war in the past 100 years has lead to dead Americans for dubious returns.

In principle I agree. In this particular case, not. Kurds were US ground troops against ISIS. If we would not have got into this mess, then it would be none of our business. We did, and our very few allies need to be treated like allies.

I don't understand why in war we would ever ally ourselves with others. OR for that matter why it is that once we do, we should hold up our end of the deal we made with them.

What's wrong with just walking away and saying, "sorry, we gotta go, best of luck, go get'em tiger !."

komputodo says

rdm says

Let's fuck over the Kurds...again. sickening

Virtue signaling is hard...Can some tell me again why I'm supposed to support Kurds?

Because they are supposedly our “allies”.

d6rB says

Goran_K says

I’ll be honest. As long as they stay over there, I don’t give a fuck. That may sound cold but we’ve got enough to deal with here and every proxy war in the past 100 years has lead to dead Americans for dubious returns.

In principle I agree. In this particular case, not. Kurds were US ground troops against ISIS. If we would not have got into this mess, then it would be none of our business. We did, and our very few allies need to be treated like allies.

They can still fight against ISIS with our bullets, guns and even air strikes.

Just not our ground troops.

Goran_K says

They can still fight against ISIS with our bullets, guns and even air strikes.

Just not our ground troops.

At this point, ISIS is not an issue since Kurds did what was asked of them - defeated ISIS. Issue is our "ally" Turkey who has been supporting assorted Islamists.

They'll oppose anything Trump does.

Reminds me of that meme where Trump says he loves oxygen and liberals suffocate themselves in protest of oxygen.

My wild guess -

Trump will use the Syria military money saved to pay for the wall. He may even use the now-more-idle military directly to build it.

This Syria pull out seemed to coincide with the same day that he decided not to pursue the shutdown to get wall funding. He also recently floated the idea of using the military to build the wall, and recently mentioned he has "other ways" to get money for the wall.

d6rB says

Goran_K says

They can still fight against ISIS with our bullets, guns and even air strikes.

Just not our ground troops.

At this point, ISIS is not an issue since Kurds did what was asked of them - defeated ISIS. Issue is our "ally" Turkey who has been supporting assorted Islamists.

I feel for the Kurds but I love young Americans more. Countries need to fix their own problems.

Hircus says

This Syria pull out seemed to coincide with the same day that he decided not to pursue the shutdown to get wall funding. He also recently floated the idea of using the military to build the wall, and recently mentioned he has "other ways" to get money for the wall.

I'd rather have MY tax dollars go to the military building the wall versus spending it over in Syria, which is a waste. Let them be, after all, how many illegal Syrians swim across the Atlantic to sneak into the country?

Goran_K says

Countries need to fix their own problems.

That too, we can't be the world's policemen. Period.

Goran_K says

I feel for the Kurds but I love young Americans more. Countries need to fix their own problems.

SO when we're collaborating, fighting side by side with another country (or group), just walking away abruptly, and leaving them in a worse situation than if we had never promised support, is cool with you ?

Kurds are fighting in part to take a chunk of Turkey which is a US ally. Obviously we can't follow them to where they want to go.
There's ISIS, kurds, Turks, Syria, Iraq shiites, Iraq sunnies, Iran, Saudis, Russia not one of these groups has interests aligned with the US: unsit Bashar al-Assad , create a democracy in Syria, make Syria a sunny block, and peal it away from Iran. A pipe dream. Sunnies support islamists. Shiites support each other and are against Israel. Kurds are against Turks and vice versa.
You have 2000 US soldier fighting both sides in a war. Think about that for a minute. What good is that? What can they achieve politically on the ground?
If you really wanted to change things, then you would need to actually invade Syria and hammer it into shape.
Short of that, time to let the situation decant. Deal with Russia and Iran separately.

Orange man bad!

With one additional caveat: the MIC is in bed with both GOP and DNC, and their leaders will and are vocally representing the military manufacturing interests.

Honey badger Trump don’t give a Fuck.
We shouldn’t be over there fighting for nothing. Obama’s war in Syria is over. We won. Let them pick up the pieces. Or don’t. Whatever. Only war hawks want to stay because Kurds or isis or freedom or whatever excuse of the fucking day is handy. They will make up any excuse to get into MOAR WARS and were happier than pigs in shit when we had two active wars in two countries for 17 years.

When will you people get enough war?
I mean, really?

Democrat Party: The new War Hawks

What do mean NEW war hawks? The big wars, Korea and Vietnam, were entered into by Democrats. Democrats supported Bush on Iraq, and do not forget who got us into Syria and the bit with Libya.

Quigley says

We shouldn’t be over there fighting for nothing. Obama’s war in Syria is over. We won. Let them pick up the pieces. Or don’t. Whatever. Only war hawks want to stay because Kurds or isis or freedom or whatever excuse of the fucking day is handy. They will make up any excuse to get into MOAR WARS and were happier than pigs in shit when we had two active wars in two countries for 17 years.

Why are we STILL in Afghanistan, FFS?

There is no chance Russia will be in there. I encourage China to intervene, be the best thing for us they could ever do.

The Middle East is the Global military industrial complex weapons proving ground. Where else can Corporations test weapons under live fire conditions? It's a revolving door o' death. US and European consumers buy Mideast oil, the Middle East gives the money back to corporations for weapons. Oil comes out, Money goes in, weapons get bought, death ensues. Run out of weapons, pump more oil.

This is why the Kashoggi murder goes unpunished. We can't penalize the entities who keep the revolving door open.

Change my mind.

rocketjoe79 says

Change my mind.

Why? You’re exactly correct.
Which is why so many old politicians are so upset that Trump is pulling out our troops.

Goran_K says

rdm says

Let's fuck over the Kurds...again. sickening

Does supporting the kurds require troops on the ground in Syria?

Yeah I don't get the connection here either. This is unrelated to Kurds. Just let Assad be he is certainly no angel neither was Saddam but both are/were the best men their region has/had to offer at the time. Don't repeat the Iraq quagmire.

mell says

Goran_K says

rdm says

Let's fuck over the Kurds...again. sickening

Does supporting the kurds require troops on the ground in Syria?

Yeah I don't get the connection here either. This is unrelated to Kurds. Just let Assad be he is certainly no angel neither was Saddam but both are/were the best men their region has/had to offer at the time. Don't repeat the Iraq quagmire.

No more foreign entanglements. Let these countries pull up their own pants for once.

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

There is no chance Russia will be in there. I encourage China to intervene, be the best thing for us they could ever do.

China is too smart to enter that shithole and waste their troops lives, the Russians learned their lesson long ago and won't be back either.

mell says

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

There is no chance Russia will be in there. I encourage China to intervene, be the best thing for us they could ever do.

China is too smart to enter that shithole and waste their troops lives, the Russians learned their lesson long ago and won't be back either.

Bingo.
Russia and China can send their armies in and “take over” once we are out.

Good fucking luck.

Democrats are going to be ultra retarded for 6 more years.

rdm says

And if you think Trump will protect them from with airpower from a member of NATO whose dictator he loves, that isn't going to happen.

The WaPo is in love with Turkey. They report everything erdogan's stooges say as gospel.

How is Libya doing? Pardon me if I'm dubious of pentagon brass and state department deep staters.

Afghanistan is more ridiculous than Syria, and there's never a reason given as to why we need to be there indefinitely and no exit plan. Let's just go

TwoScoopsOfSpaceForce says

How is Libya doing? Pardon me if I'm dubious of pentagon brass and state department deep staters.

Afghanistan is more ridiculous than Syria, and there's never a reason given as to why we need to be there indefinitely and no exit plan. Let's just go

Do you remember when Democrats were against wars without exit back in 2007?

Pepperidge farms remembers.

ThreeBays says

Goran_K says

Evan F. says

It's not just the Dems who are upset about this move

Anyone against this is against logic.

False, how are you able to make a logical decision here? The truth is neither you nor I have the necessary facts on the ground to be able to claim it's logical. All we can claim is opinion.

My opinion is given Dunford, Mattis, McGurk, and allies reactions, the orange guy is probably wrong.

No this is simple logic.

Stay = American lives at risk for dubious returns.
Leave = Save money, American lives saved.

I don’t care about Syrians, Kurds, Turkish, Chinese, Iranians or Russians. If they want to untangle that knot, they can figure it out.

Fuck em.

ThreeBays says

Goran_K says

No this is simple logic.

Simple and simplistic are different things.

I’ll take your expert opinion on that.