patrick.net

RWSGFY says

Eh? I have an old RWD sedan which is on par with base RWD Model3 performance-wise (260 hp, 5.8 sec to 60, 145 mph top speed).

The Model 3 Performance has a 0-60 at 2.9 sec. That is night and day difference. My long range Y does it in 4.4 seconds. .

Most people spending extra money to buy muscle cars and sports cars are typically car enthusiasts and know what they are getting. Some people spend thousands of dollars on standard ICE cars for mod packages just to shave half a second on acceleration because it is so noticable. Now imagine shaving nearly 4 seconds off your old RWD sedan!

Soccer and Wine moms getting a Tesla for a fraction of the cost of sports cars can sometimes let the cars get away from them.

socal2 says

Soccer and Wine moms getting a Tesla for a fraction of the cost of sports cars can sometimes let the cars get away from them.

So then why make that car? That's 50% plus of the population that will drive it. Probably closer to 70% as I only know personally one man that drives one. It's all chicks.

Not knocking you, but men just don't drive them. They are ugly. No utility if you have kids or do stuff. Yet to ever be sold on any model EV. Not picking on Tesla. My car makes any Tesla or other EV maker look gay. I can drive anywhere off road with 8 passengers. Maybe when the kids are out of the house and Tesla comes up with a full sized SUV not ugly car I'd think about it.

Hahahaha...Newsom outright declares that the EV bullshit is all political, nothing more:

WookieMan says

Not knocking you, but men just don't drive them

74% of Tesla drivers are male.

https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2018/11/tesla-owner-demographics/#:~:text=Tesla%20owner%20demographics%3A%20gender,-We%20looked%20at&text=Overall%2C%20Tesla%20owners%20skew%2074,%25%20female%2C%2074%25%20male.

WookieMan says

No utility if you have kids or do stuff.

There is plenty of room for my two H.S. aged kids, wife and even mother in law.

Besides, my wife's SUV is the main car to schlep kids and groceries around and for long road trips.

My Tesla is for fun. I am the only person in my car 95% of my driving.

Why buy a more expensive, slower, less safe and less fun car to drive around town?

socal2 says

RWSGFY says

Eh? I have an old RWD sedan which is on par with base RWD Model3 performance-wise (260 hp, 5.8 sec to 60, 145 mph top speed).

The Model 3 Performance has a 0-60 at 2.9 sec. That is night and day difference. My long range Y does it in 4.4 seconds. .

Most people spending extra money to buy muscle cars and sports cars are typically car enthusiasts and know what they are getting. Some people spend thousands of dollars on standard ICE cars for mod packages just to shave half a second on acceleration because it is so noticable. Now imagine shaving nearly 4 seconds off your old RWD sedan!

Soccer and Wine moms getting a Tesla for a fraction of the cost of sports cars can sometimes let the cars get away from them.

Let's not move the goalposts: my humble sedan came into picture as reaction to the assertion that even lowes-spec Teslas are supercars and hence it's normal for their drivers to kill themselves left and right. My sedan is exact performance equivalent of RWD Model 3. And it's not at all dangerous despite comparatively ancient electronics.

Also, while I understand how something like 1st gen Viper with no electronic nannies or Modern V8 Mustang, Camaro or Corvette with nannies disabled can get away from an inexperienced driver when the latter floors it, top-line Teslas are AWD and nannies can't be disabled. You floor it and it doesn't fishtail all over the road even on wet or ice/snow (I drove a rental MY LR to Kirkwood and Heavenly in winter conditions) whereas that Viper would easily swap ends even on dry asphalt. Teslas are pretty idiot-proof when it comes to traction issues related to power/torque. Not only traction and torque vectoring is controlled, the fucking thing can steer too!

So whatever it is, it's not power/torque issue.

RWSGFY says

Let's not move the goalposts:

That's what he does.

RWSGFY says

So whatever it is, it's not power/torque issue.

Even the FUD article that is generating all these headlines said it was driver's behavior which was primarily responsible and nothing innate with Tesla engineering or manufacturing of the vehicles.

I expect we will continue to see loads more anti-Tesla and anti-Elon hit pieces like this in the coming months now he is so hitched with Trump.

RWSGFY says

Let's not move the goalposts: my humble sedan came into picture as reaction to the assertion that even lowes-spec Teslas are supercars and hence it's normal for their drivers to kill themselves left and right. My sedan is exact performance equivalent of RWD Model 3. And it's not at all dangerous despite comparatively ancient electronics.

To reach those speeds in your ICE sedan requires massive intention (flooring it) and you will be hyper aware with the engine noise and quick gear changing.

Tesla's can quickly reach those speeds by barely leaning on the peddle and it is very quiet.

So maybe that makes Tesla's more dangerous to some who are not used to having that much power so easily available?

socal2 says

Why buy a more expensive, slower, less safe and less fun car to drive around town?

My car is 100% safer than any Tesla model. Just ride a bike if you're going 25mph. There are other options. Not everyone lives in a gay city which is what most are. My car was cheaper than any model of Tesla inflation adjusted. Bigger. And more UTILITY.

I don't care about speed. I don't drive recklessly. A Tesla is the antithesis to this.

Also I didn't qualify this. It's women and gay men that drive Teslas. So you're right about 70% women.

socal2 says

There is plenty of room for my two H.S. aged kids, wife and even mother in law.

All of whom are midgets apparently. Glad you can fit them and lose 100 miles due to weight.

socal2 says

RWSGFY says

Let's not move the goalposts: my humble sedan came into picture as reaction to the assertion that even lowes-spec Teslas are supercars and hence it's normal for their drivers to kill themselves left and right. My sedan is exact performance equivalent of RWD Model 3. And it's not at all dangerous despite comparatively ancient electronics.

To reach those speeds in your ICE sedan requires massive intention (flooring it) and you will be hyper aware with the engine noise and quick gear changing.

Tesla's can quickly reach those speeds by barely leaning on the peddle and it is very quiet.

So maybe that makes Tesla's more dangerous to some who are not used to having that much power so easily available?

What "these speeds"? If you are in traffic going 20-30 over when everybody goes +10 wil be immediately noticeable, so not buying the unawares argument. And if you are on an empty freeway you're not automatically killing yiurself by just doing 100-120. I sometimes do 100+ in a fucking full-size truck. (BTW, at speed the most of the noise is from the tires, not engine).Heck, I did 145 in Nevada once to check the top speed of then new to me car and didn't notice any drama.

What if all the excessive death are from the battery fires and hard-to-open doors?

RWSGFY says

What if all the excessive death are from the battery fires and hard-to-open doors?

My guess is reliance on the sensors with side impact. You can't stop a t-bone crash if someone blows a stop sign/light. Can't stop a sleepy/drunk/texting driver for head on impact without putting you in the ditch or on a city sidewalk mowing people over or wrapping around a light pole. Then you start on fire potentially and cannot get out.

I don't like driving road trips, but 300-400 miles, cool I can deal. I've fallen asleep on two trips and almost crashed, so I get the benefit of Tesla there on highways. But in rural areas people blowing stop signs is a massive problem. Especially when corn is up. No car sensor isn't gonna save you.

My t-bone accident a Tesla couldn't have stopped. Fortunately only 35mph, likely less as when I saw the bitch make her move I slammed on the brakes. I had the heavier car and completely tore off the back end of her car. If I didn't slam the brakes the passenger would have been in a world of hurt or dead. I have no clue if they make them anymore, never buy a Chevy Malibu. I hit her with a Buick.

Point of this novel is I don't trust electronics. I use them, but not for other people's stupidity. I use my eyes and ears. Wasn't my fault on my only accident, but it could have been worse for them. I've avoided probably 40-50 accidents commuting to and around Chicago. I'll trust me, not computers/sensors.

And yes Socal I do know you can drive Tesla like a standard car. We'll actually have a charging outlet in the new house. I'm not anti, it's just not for my uses. Get me one under $80k that can tow 5-9k lbs with at least 350 range and I'll likely be a buyer. I'm not seeing that happening. The reason Pepsi is using the cyber semi or whatever it's called is because they have shorter trailers for distribution. So the mass of the batteries doesn't matter. Your standard 52' (I believe) trailer would be likely overweight fully loaded. They're short range beer truck, soda, food with shorter trailers type trucks.

EV's have massive limitations and there's nothing you can do outside of adding more battery capacity $$$$$$$$. So I'm out for now.

RWSGFY says

What if all the excessive death are from the battery fires and hard-to-open doors?

Then the FUD report would be harping this claim to the moon and back.........instead of correctly reporting that excess deaths were due to driver behavior.

socal2 says

driver behavior.

Blame the human barbecues. They will eventually recycle the bodies for the lithium.

A seven seat Tesla Model X:



Versus
Seven seat Sequoia (makes the fifth man get into the third row):

Thousands of new cars are rusting in a parking lot in Germany, no one is buying them anymore.

In the German city of Essen, about 6,000 new cars have filled a parking lot due to high prices and problems with the infrastructure for electric cars.

Among the abandoned cars are models of German auto brands Volkswagen and Audi. According to the employees of the site, the cars have been idle for more than six months.

“I have never encountered anything like this before, although I have been working here for more than 10 years.

Cars are only brought in, but almost no one drives them. People are not ready to pay such money for an electric car, and the development of charging stations and limited driving range scare off buyers," said one of the workers.

-> The government imposed the green agenda, now the carmaker go bankrupt …

https://x.com/MyLordBebo/status/1861465530600722579

EBGuy says

A seven seat Tesla Model X:



Versus
Seven seat Sequoia (makes the fifth man get into the third row):

Nice try: Sequoia is available with a 2nd row bench making it a 8-pax vehicle. And, unlike Tesla, actual adults can ride in the 3rd.

RWSGFY says

EBGuy says

A seven seat Tesla Model X:



Versus
Seven seat Sequoia (makes the fifth man get into the third row):

Nice try: Sequoia is available with a 2nd row bench making it a 8-pax vehicle. And, unlike Tesla, actual adults can ride in the 3rd.

lol, right. There's a bench option on the Sequoia, but even with captains chairs it's a better car. Who the hell is fitting in any of the back rows at all on the Tesla especially the 3rd row. I'm 6'3" and my kids will hit that or taller. You're clearly a shorter guy EBguy. The 3rd row literally has no leg room. And middle row I'd be on top of other passengers in the Tesla. I don't know that my hips would even fit in any of those seats for more than 20 minutes.

Bad comparison is all I'll say. There's a lever on the middle row anyway to the back on the Sequoia. Not that difficult unless retarded. Just step in and sit in the 3rd row. Either way I'm not sitting bitch in either car 2nd or 3rd row. 3rd row on the Sequoia clearly has more leg room. Model X you cannot even see the 3rd row floor.

Also, attach a trailer with 5 people and gear. You might get 100 miles. I could go 300 miles and not stop with the Sequoia up to central Wisconsin from my home. Oh and I could probably tow 3k-5k lbs best case. Not 7k-9k lbs.

socal2 says

My long range Y does it in 4.4 seconds. .

Most people spending extra money to buy muscle cars and sports cars are typically car enthusiasts and know what they are getting. Some people spend thousands of dollars on standard ICE cars for mod packages just to shave half a second on acceleration because it is so noticable.

My B58 Straight-6 engine powered BMW also does 0-60 in that time range, and can run well over 400 miles on a tank of gas (while keeping heat on full blast in winter) then takes only 5min to gas up before repeating. The only times I can push the gas pedal all the way are (1) highway merging, from on-ramp 30mph to 80mph speeding ticket risk takes only about 4 seconds each time; (2) passing other vehicles on two-lane roads (i.e. momentarily on the other side of the dotted median). There is very little chance of doing either in a Tesla or any other battery EV, because the limited range of battery EV means it won't go on road trips, and the high probability of a fiery death in case of any collision damaging lithium battery would dissuade one from trying to pass on dotted median while driving a battery EV.

BTW, I would't call driving any Tesla fun, simply due to the harsh ride quality.

Reality says

BTW, I would't call driving any Tesla fun, simply due to the harsh ride quality.

I'm an SUV guy, obviously from my posts. Just redid my suspension for the first time at 238k miles. All cars will need this, so no advantage for EV's there. They also can't ride through the soybean fields of farmers I know. It's more fun than speed. Still have a V8 so have actually quick acceleration at speed. So 55-75mph to pass someone in 1.5 seconds is all I need. And merging on the highway I'm visible and everyone gets the fuck out of the way in the other lane.

Only thing I ever worry about is blown stop signs and traffic lights or getting rear ended by distracted drivers. No EV is stopping that. Outside of a semi, anyone that hits me is going to be hurting, not me. Oh and I can tow 9k lbs with about 350 miles of range. Every car starts on fire, so I generally don't argue that. It's the charging that concerns me. We will have an EV charger in our new garage. Not required.

I just don't think EV's are functional in the midwest outside of cities. Thursday is 14ºF high and 3ºF low. That battery ain't gonna last. I'll do 100 miles in a day. Between heat and payload of kids, it's not happening. I get warm weather folks, but 100 miles you enter range anxiety land in those temps. The heat has to be produced and not come from the engine. That's power. I'd guess 90% active on this site are CA or southern states that generally don't have a hard freeze. Lithium does not do well in cold. Easier to cool air 20ºF on a bad day than raise the temp 60ºF in a deep freeze by battery.

RWSGFY says

Nice try: Sequoia is available with a 2nd row bench making it a 8-pax vehicle. And, unlike Tesla, actual adults can ride in the 3rd.

Yeah - the Model Y is a compact SUV at best. The 3rd row is worthless except for small children.

The Sequoia I believe is the larger of the 2 SUV's that Toyota offers.

So apples/oranges comparison.

Better to compare it to an X.

Reality says

My B58 Straight-6 engine powered BMW also does 0-60 in that time range, and can run well over 400 miles on a tank of gas (while keeping heat on full blast in winter) then takes only 5min to gas up before repeating. The only times I can push the gas pedal all the way are (1) highway merging, from on-ramp 30mph to 80mph speeding ticket risk takes only about 4 seconds each time; (2) passing other vehicles on two-lane roads (i.e. momentarily on the other side of the dotted median). There is very little chance of doing either in a Tesla or any other battery EV, because the limited range of battery EV means it won't go on road trips, and the high probability of a fiery death in case of any collision damaging lithium battery would dissuade one from trying to pass on dotted median while driving a battery EV.

BTW, I would't call driving any Tesla fun, simply due to the harsh ride quality.

I bet any new BMW that can meet that acceleration costs several thousand dollars more to purchase than a Tesla. Also cost thousands of dollars more to maintain and fuel up compared to a Tesla.

I don't know which Tesla's you have driven, but all the new models (especially the revamped 3) has really good ride quality.

You simply can't beat one pedal driving and regenerative braking. So much more natural and sophisticated than using primitive friction brakes to waste all that heat/dust energy to slow big heavy cars down.

socal2 says

You simply can't beat one pedal driving and regenerative braking. So much more natural and sophisticated than using primitive friction brakes to waste all that heat/dust energy to slow big heavy cars down.

LOL! Are you still wearing masks and taking new Covid-19 jabs? Do you eat up every piece of propaganda? Do you sleep in your Tesla as it drives itself down the highway like in those idiotic youtube videos? The one pedal-driving is just as suicidal: it's setting the driver up to press hard on the one pedal during a desired emergency braking.

I don't know which Tesla's you have driven, but all the new models (especially the revamped 3) has really good ride quality.

Does your Tesla's suspension components get magically replaced when new models come out? Even the latest ones are still poor-riding / hard-riding compared to the proper gasoline luxury cars.

I bet any new BMW that can meet that acceleration costs several thousand dollars more to purchase than a Tesla. Also cost thousands of dollars more to maintain and fuel up compared to a Tesla.

And you'd have lost that bet. When I bought the car in early 2021, it was priced comparable to a Model 3 at the time with similar 0-60; however, the Tesla Model 3 wouldn't have the far superior physical dial+buttons iDrive user interface but would have relied on another suicidal feature -- the giant touch screen taking the driver's eyes off the road. The interior material quality in Model 3 was/is at best comparable only to a VW GTI / Golf R or Ford Mustang (GT), both econoboxes focused on 0-60, and the Model 3 has even lower manufacturing quality than those two, not at all comparable to a BMW built on the CLAR platform. In terms of operating cost, my car's fuel cost is about 12 cents per mile, $100 for oil change and tire rotation per year, no mechanical failure so far. My local electricity is about 40 cents per kwh at home, double that at public fast chargers, so a Tesla would work out to be about 10 cents to 20 cents per mile and that's before taking into account the sitting electricity cost during cold winter days+nights and hot summer days. Chances are that a Tesla would cost more simply due to battery temperature maintenance when the car is not even driven (I average about 7k miles per year on this car when no extensive road trips are planned; and another 8k miles on a convertible pickup that is far more functional than the Cybertrash). Insurance on the Tesla would have been much higher. Service life of a Tesla would also be much shorter so depreciation would be much higher. Now Model 3 price is probably much lower than any BMW with comparable 0-60, but that's because the less intelligent are finally catching up to the reality that battery EV's are nearly worthless trash when compared to a proper gasoline car like any of the BMW models built on the CLAR platform. The carmakers are turning out the battery EV cars to fulfill government regulatory mandates, just like pediatricians and many primary care doctors pressuring clients to take the jabs in order to get paid. The banks / governments / pension institutions need you to die and release them from account balance liabilities.

Reality says

The banks / governments / pension institutions need you to die and release them from account balance liabilities.

LOL! KILL THE ACCOUNT HOLDERS! KILL THEM ALL! The Ponzi harvest begins!

Reality says

convertible pickup

Which model is this? I want one, but I only know of a Dodge convertible pickup from long ago.

HeadSet says

Reality says

convertible pickup

Which model is this? I want one, but I only know of a Dodge convertible pickup from long ago.

Jeep Gladiator. After leasing one for 4yrs (they had incredible lease residual when coming out in 2019 for 2020 model year: 70% residual after 4yrs) then buying a new one last year, I'd recommend a soft top one with hard toneau cover so that the rear window can be quickly removed to allow longer items extending into the cab (crew cab, 5 seats, 5ft bed, the only configuration available); even the windshield can be dropped for items longer than 16ft. The non-turbo V6 and ZF-designed 8-speed are very good. The 11.5" ground clearance is awesome. The ride quality is very good for a truck when the tires are round (some of them, especially if you are looking for the V6 + 8speed auto option, may have sat on the lot for a few months therefore having flat spots in the tires, like mine did and took a couple weeks of driving to round the tires); very good discounts can be found on near-zero mile vehicles on the lot. I got nearly 20% off MSRP last year for a brand new one (3 miles on the odometer for a car made 4 months before I bought it, so apparently the dealer wasn't moving it around often enough to keep the tires round).

Reality says

The one pedal-driving is just as suicidal: it's setting the driver up to press hard on the one pedal during a desired emergency braking.

I am on my 3rd EV (1 Chevy Bolt, 2 Teslas) and the one pedal driving is absolutely sublime and one of the best features of EV's. One pedal driving makes driving fast so much more fun because you can accelerate and quickly slow down as if you are in a sports car in 1st gear with never-ending torque.

I live in a hilly place and can't stand driving my wife's ICE car smoking the brakes coming down hills and needing brake jobs every year.

ICE vehicles are so primitive!

socal2 says

I am on my 3rd EV (1 Chevy Bolt, 2 Teslas) and the one pedal driving is absolutely sublime and one of the best features of EV's. One pedal driving makes driving fast so much more fun because you can accelerate and quickly slow down as if you are in a sports car in 1st gear with never-ending torque.

I live in a hilly place and can't stand driving my wife's ICE car smoking the brakes coming down hills and needing brake jobs every year.

Why not shift into 1st gear (or 2nd, 3rd) on a proper ICE car with proper conventional (torque-converter) automatic w/ sport-shift? If you are a commercial driver, it's not even legal to run the vehicle down a long descent without down-shifting. Is your wife driving a belt/chain-driven CVT car in a hilly environment? In that case, replacing brakes might be a lesser problem than replacing transmission! Hilly place poses a greater problem for battery EV's than to ICE cars that have conventional torque-converter automatics: the EV range is further reduced due to having to climb hills.

ICE vehicles are so primitive!

Robert Anderson invented the first battery EV in 1832, nearly 3 decades before the invention of the first ICE!

BTW, I'm not entirely against battery EV's: I bought a pink plastic Jeep for my daughter when she was 3years old; that was either $200 or $500. The proper price for something like the Model Y is about $15k, if they can either have solid state battery or have a thick armored box enclosing the lithium battery so the car doesn't go up in flames as soon as a nail punctures the battery.

Reality says

Why not shift into 1st gear (or 2nd, 3rd) on a proper ICE car with proper conventional (torque-converter) automatic w/ sport-shift? Is your wife driving a belt/chain-driven CVT car in a hilly environment? In that case, replacing brakes might be a lesser problem than replacing transmission! Hilly place poses a greater problem for battery EV's than ICE cars that have conventional torque-converter automatics: the EV range is further reduced due to having to climb hills.

Too much work. Rather just push the go pedal and have all that power instantly available without having to dick around with primitive transmissions trying find the right gear going up and down hills. I can be doing 80 mph screaming down the big hill out of my neighborhood and the car will come to a complete and smooth stop simply taking my foot off the accelerator and all that kinetic energy is captured in my battery instead of wasted heat and brake dust particles.

Hills are an absolute blast for Tesla's going up and down.

We don't need to force it or have stupid government regulations - but I truly believe ICE will go the way of the steam engine in our lifetimes.

Especially now that Tesla has perfected the Semi Tesla that will revolutionize long hauls saving the trucking industry billions in energy and maintenance.

You should ask the guys test driving Tesla semis going up and down the mountain between Reno and Fremont if they miss all the gears and double clutching.

socal2 says

Too much work. Rather just push the go pedal and have all that power instantly available without having to dick around with primitive transmissions trying find the right gear going up and down hills. I can be doing 80 mph screaming down the big hill out of my neighborhood and the car will come to a complete and smooth stop simply taking my foot off the accelerator and all that kinetic energy is captured in my battery instead of wasted heat and brake dust particles.

Hills are an absolute blast for Tesla's going up and down.

LOL! On the ICE BMW, the feature is called cruise-control with automatic speed reduction. It will control speed to the set target regardless up hill or down hill, down-shifting and gently/unnoticeably braking/shaving off gravitational acceleration if necessary when going down hill. You can drive without touching any foot pedal until an emergency braking is required (rolling a thumb-wheel/switch on the steering wheel to increase or decrease target speed). It will maintain the speed instead of coming to a stop. That's without using ACC (radar cruise control).

socal2 says

ICE vehicles are so primitive!

socal2 says

We don't need to force it or have stupid government regulations - but I truly believe ICE will go the way of the steam engine in our lifetimes.

Especially now that Tesla has perfected the Semi Tesla that will revolutionize long hauls saving the trucking industry billions in energy and maintenance.

You should ask the guys test driving Tesla semis going up and down the mountain between Reno and Fremont if they miss all the gears and double clutching.

You may need some information updates. Battery EV Semi-truck projects are being abandoned due to range issues (and weight/capacity, safety, etc..); even the EV box-truck projects are heading toward bankruptcy (due to range problem).

An ICE engine can last decades, whereas batteries' service life span is measured in a few years, resulting in an industrial plastic waste nightmare. ICE fuel has far higher energy density than chemical EV batteries. ICE + fuel tank is the most efficient non-nuclear "battery": not even having to carry the oxidation agent and not having to carry the reaction output/waste home, taking advantage of geothermal energy to turn CO2 dissolved in ocean water and depositing at the ocean floor as limestone (CaCO3) (plus water) into methane (CH4) and longer chains of hydrocarbon, gasoline being mostly C8H18 mixed with shorter and longer hydrocarbon chains with distribution centered around 8-carbon length.

Reality says

You may need some information updates. Battery EV Semi-truck projects are being abandoned due to range issues (and weight/capacity, safety, etc..); even the EV box-truck projects are heading toward bankruptcy (due to range problem).

Not Tesla - they are building their new Semi factory in Reno right now. Pepsi and Frito Lay who got the first Tesla Semi's a year ago absolutely love them and demand is huge. The ROI is only a few years. Cost and maintenance to operate traditional ICE Semis is enormous. Doesn't matter how gay or green people think they are - Fleet Managers know how to manage their P&L's and Tesla will sell every Semi they manufacture.

Tesla batteries will last 1 million miles and the value of old batteries will be huge to the growing recycling industry. No EV batteries will go to waste. It is so much easier to refine and recycle the critical metals like cobalt and nickel from an existing battery than having to mine and process them from the earth.

socal2 says

Too much work. Rather just push the go pedal and have all that power instantly available without having to dick around with primitive transmissions trying find the right gear going up and down hills.

You ever drive a manual transmission ICE vehicle? It's fun. If you're a good driver your brakes will last 100k miles if you know what you're doing. I like driving manual, keeps you paying attention. I can't do the self drive and all that other shit. I don't trust 99% of humans, so not sure how to trust the ones that made them. I can't. I know how to control a car.

I'll take ICE 10 out of 10 times for now. Been doing it over 100 years and there are millions of mechanics that know what they're doing. There's no one trained on the batteries besides the manufacturer. It will be 50 years before EV even come close to being 50-60% of the market. They don't work in cold, so north of I-80 they're basically useless in winter. Can't tow. Long charge times on long trips.

If you live in a city and like living in hell, that's your choice. I'm not getting an EV though until I can get 7-8pax, 9K lbs towing on 350 miles range. Our gas is under $3 here in my part of IL. The horror of filling up a V8 SUV once every other week to the tune of $65. We make $1,232.87 every day 365. I'm sure that bi-weekly gas fill up will bankrupt us.... Wife doesn't pay for gas either

Maybe I'm unique. But I can get a muti-use car for the same price as the lowest model Tesla. Go 400 miles with 5 people and gear up to Northern Wisconsin. Oil changes won't bankrupt me. I don't need speed although my V8 has some go for a big SUV. Tesla or any EV is not remotely appealing to me at all and can't do what I need.

socal2 says

Not Tesla - they are building their new Semi factory in Reno right now. Pepsi and Frito Lay who got the first Tesla Semi's a year ago absolutely love them and demand is huge. The ROI is only a few years. Cost and maintenance to operate traditional ICE Semis is enormous. Doesn't matter how gay or green people think they are - Fleet Managers know how to manage their P&L's and Tesla will sell every Semi they manufacture.

Tesla batteries will last 1 million miles and the value of old batteries will be huge to the growing recycling industry. No EV batteries will go to waste. It is so much easier to refine and recycle the critical metals like cobalt and nickel from an existing battery than having to mine and process them from the earth.

Here is a hint on how to recognize those press releases as way out-of-date material: where in Lithium-Iron-Phosphate or Sodium-Ion batteries do you find Cobalt or Nickel? In any case, your resorting to talking about semi-trucks and Flintstone-mobile is indicative of exhausting valid arguments in support of battery EV's for private passenger vehicle applications.

socal2 says

Not Tesla - they are building their new Semi factory in Reno right now. Pepsi and Frito Lay who got the first Tesla Semi's a year ago absolutely love them and demand is huge.

They're not viable for the cost. They're local "semi" trucks if you can even call them that. They're delivery trucks. Within 20-30 miles of a distribution center for 4-8 deliveries.

Time is money. You can't ship Chicago to say Austin, TX with an EV semi. You'd add on 5 hours. Time is money in shipping. They're gas station delivery trucks. There's a market, but it's not going to be earth shattering.

WookieMan says

You ever drive a manual transmission ICE vehicle? It's fun.

I grew up on manuals and and it's a total pain in the ass. Especially on hills!

Hell - I barely drive my Tesla anymore as the latest version of FSD is that good.