patrick.net

socal2 says

RWSGFY says

Anecdotes vs data:

Yeah - this bit of FUD was floating around by the Elon haters earlier this week.

The main reason for the higher fatality rate is that the car is Ferrari/Lamborghini fast and there are alot of drivers not used to that much power and speed. They think they are just getting a standard sedan or SUV, not appreciating how unbelievably powerful they are.

So fall from Devil's Slide won't kill you in Tesla but driving it as intended will? And this is better how?

Eric Holder says

So fall from Devil's Slide won't kill you in Tesla but driving it as intended will? And this is better how?

Driving a Tesla 120+ mph and wrapping it around a telephone pole is not "driving it as intended".

socal2 says

Eric Holder says

So fall from Devil's Slide won't kill you in Tesla but driving it as intended will? And this is better how?

Driving a Tesla 120+ mph and wrapping it around a telephone pole is not "driving it as intended".

Are you implying that the percentage of idiots is higher among Tesla drivers so much so they manage to kill themselves even in Devil Slide proof car?

Tesla are simply not safer. It has no sensor to stop a speeding drunk driver from blowing a stop sign and getting t-boned. My son and I almost had it happen to us. The sensors wouldn't have worked in time where I was at. My eyes worked and stopped before entering the intersection.

Fact is you have to be aware. I trust probably 1-2 people, let alone tech that I have no control over. If people want to trust in it, good luck. My car would eat any model Tesla for breakfast. And there's nothing your sensors can do about it if I t-bone you. You're dead. You'll have a Goodyear tire in your mouth and your frame jammed up your ass. I'll be like, was that a deer?

Sedans are not safe. Fact. I don't care what model. If I hit you at 60-70mph there's at 95% chance you're dead. Not debatable. I walk, call the cops as you die. I'll try to help you but it's hopeless 9 out of 10 times. People have too much false hope on car safety. Weight matters. Size matters. Funny how everyone dies in a train on car crash. Right?

Eric Holder says

Are you implying that the percentage of idiots is higher among Tesla drivers so much so they manage to kill themselves even in Devil Slide proof car?

I'm suggesting that performance cars and muscle cars have higher fatality rates because........they do.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dangers-of-muscle-cars

Even base model Teslas are faster and more powerful than most muscle and performance cars. So no surprise that some wine moms driving their 3's and Y's around town might let the car get away from them not realizing the power they have available.

WookieMan says

Tesla are simply not safer.

Tesla Model Y 2024 scores near-perfect in IIHS’ crash tests
https://electrek.co/2024/02/27/tesla-model-y-2024-scores-near-perfect-iihs-crash-tests/

Model Y Achieves 5-Star Overall Safety Rating from NHTSA
https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-y-achieves-5-star-overall-safety-rating-nhtsa

Model S Receives 5-Star Euro NCAP Safety Rating
https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-s-receives-5-star-euro-ncap-safety-rating#:~:text=Revisiting%20Euro%20NCAP,and%20Post%2DCrash%20Safety%20subsection.

Tesla Model Y wins 2023 safety award with “near-perfect safety rating”
https://thedriven.io/2023/01/23/tesla-model-y-wins-2023-safety-award-with-near-perfect-safety-rating/

socal2 says

Even base model Teslas are faster and more powerful than most muscle and performance cars. So no surprise that some wine moms driving their 3's and Y's around town might let the car get away from them not realizing the power they have available.

Slightly sexist. Fact is they're not safer cars when I hit them. You'll at minimum be in an ICU for days or dead. For an engineer Musk overhypes his product. Mass and speed matter. That's not debatable and he should know that. An airbag is not going to save you from me running over your car and smashing your body.

If you haven't been in an accident, you can't really say a Tesla is safer. Wife got hit by a fully loaded box truck with 16k lbs. Sequoia was totaled and the kids barely noticed. I know the insurance adjuster on the box truck and the driver. It was a 45mph rear end. Small world and not joking.

You'd be dead in any model of Tesla or sedan of any make or model. The car in front of my wife's was totaled as well. My son had glass all over him and all he said was, "what was that."

The reliance on sensors is false safety. T-bone accidents are the most deadly. Blown stop sign or light. Happens all the time. Sensors cannot prevent that.

We are talking basic physics here.

Car rollovers are one of the main causes of car fatalities.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qySTIFdAZRM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bEunt-pqgvA

Since Tesla's have massive battery packs that keep the car centered with a low center of gravity, they are much less likely to roll - and one of the reasons why virtually every international safety institute gives Tesla's the highest safety rating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eo9TuukgVxU

So between Wookie and Socal we have:

Socal claims that Teslas have one of the lowest centers of gravity of any vehicle - that's fine for 1-car accidents.

Wookie claims that most accidents are 2-car, usually rear-end but every so often there's a catastrophic T-bone smashup. Biggest and highest chassis wins almost always.

You guys are talking at cross purposes. Teslas are low to the ground and will fare worse against GMC Suburbans and their like. If you're fucked up and lose control of your car with no one else around, then the Tesla is probably less likely to roll over and kill you.

stereotomy says

You guys are talking at cross purposes. Teslas are low to the ground and will fare worse against GMC Suburbans and their like. If you're fucked up and lose control of your car with no one else around, then the Tesla is probably less likely to roll over and kill you.

Rolling isn't the issue. Damn near half the cars personal or commercially are much bigger. I learned my driving habits driving a small car in Chicago traffic. You will die in a second and your sensor cannot stop another car or god forbid semi.

Had a county worker friend split into 3 pieces getting hit. He was in your typical highway truck. Not a pickup, but a big boy. A Tesla or other sedan is not safe at highway speeds. Running out of battery on a highway is a death wish with a Tesla. 80,000lbs of truck hitting your ass and you don't live.

Has nothing to do with speeds. It's weight of what hits you that your sensors have no control over. I'll only drive full sized SUV's the rest of my life. I don't care about gas. I'm not poor. I don't care about speed. Utility and A to B. All other things are bull shit. Give me a cassette player for all I care. There's too many distractions driving. Just drive.

stereotomy says

Teslas are low to the ground and will fare worse against GMC Suburbans and their like

A school bus or semi truck will take out a GMC Suburban because it is simply bigger. Hell, a Cybertruck will take them all out. Apples and oranges.

Thought we were arguing something specific about Tesla's OVERALL design and resultant safety? Tesla has big and small cars.

All those North American and European safety scores I linked above takes overall safety into account.

The high fatality rates were attributed mostly due to reckless driving.

DOGEWontAmountToShit says

"Just about 15 minutes down the road from Devil’s Slide is Moss Beach Distillery."

I've been there. It's OK.

socal2 says

A school bus or semi truck will take out a GMC Suburban because it is simply bigger. Hell, a Cybertruck will take them all out. Apples and oranges.

Nope. Not true at all. A 16k lbs truck hit my wife's car, totaled it and the kids didn't even know they were in an accident. This isn't 3rd person anecdotal. This happened to my family. I'd never put them in a Tesla. Ever. You can't change my mind on that.

This wasn't a pickup truck. It was a fully loaded box truck. They all walked away. Not a scratch. No chance in a Tesla. The truck would have been on my kids heads and probably dead. No hyperbolic either. I was there.

Patrick says

DOGEWontAmountToShit says

"Just about 15 minutes down the road from Devil’s Slide is Moss Beach Distillery."

I've been there. It's OK.

Is there any left now?

socal2 says

Eric Holder says

Are you implying that the percentage of idiots is higher among Tesla drivers so much so they manage to kill themselves even in Devil Slide proof car?

I'm suggesting that performance cars and muscle cars have higher fatality rates because........they do.
https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/latest-driver-death-rates-highlight-dangers-of-muscle-cars

Even base model Teslas are faster and more powerful than most muscle and performance cars. So no surprise that some wine moms driving their 3's and Y's around town might let the car get away from them not realizing the power they have available.

Eh? I have an old RWD sedan which is on par with base RWD Model3 performance-wise (260 hp, 5.8 sec to 60, 145 mph top speed). I don't see it as challenging to drive. Also I've driven Model 3 in both RWD and AWD spec and Model Y LR AWD and again didn't have my socks blown off. These are not Ferraris for sure. Not even V8 Mustangs as far as getting yourself into trouble goes. You can't even disable the electronic nannies. So no, not buying the "supercar in Corolla garb" spin.

RWSGFY says

Eh? I have an old RWD sedan which is on par with base RWD Model3 performance-wise (260 hp, 5.8 sec to 60, 145 mph top speed). I don't see it as challenging to drive. Also I've driven Model 3 in both RWD and AWD spec and Model Y LR AWD and again didn't have my socks blown off. These are not Ferraris for sure. Not even V8 Mustangs as far as getting yourself into trouble goes. You can't even disable the electronic nannies. So no, not buying the "supercar in Corolla garb" spin.

They are ugly for sure. I get people that like muscle cars because sure there's power, but they look cool. Not my jam, but I get people liking the looks. It's kind of like art.

Haven't had a speeding ticket or traffic accident since I was 18. I like big cars and I cannot lie. I'm the guy you are pissed at going the exact speed limit.

Here in IL there are less cops pulling people over. I respect them but don't trust them at all. I don't need a fast car for some mid-life crisis. Building a house. Close 12/3 on the construction loan FINALLY. I would not recommend custom, but I would not recommend buying a corporate built shit shack. The payoff will be good though for us. I finally get my recording studio. Kids get their own bedrooms. Not EV related, but Friday was a big day (yesterday). That's my midlife crisis buy.

My baseline 2021 Model Y is 0-60 in 4.4 sec. I use it to impress people I take on a demo drive. There are other fast cars, most are electric:

https://www.carfax.com/blog/fastest-sedans

Several of these are $100K or more. Out-the-door price on a new Model Y is under $50K without $7500 tax credit.
https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#payment

rocketjoe79 says

My baseline 2021 Model Y is 0-60 in 4.4 sec. I use it to impress people I take on a demo drive. There are other fast cars, most are electric:

https://www.carfax.com/blog/fastest-sedans

Several of these are $100K or more. Out-the-door price on a new Model Y is under $50K without $7500 tax credit.
https://www.tesla.com/modely/design#payment

Cool. Or I can buy an SUV that has utility and space for 7 people comfortably. EV's don't work for families. Not even a discussion. Enjoy zipping around and I'll hook up a 9k lbs camper and have some cheap fun for less all in than a Model Y.

So much whinging. The Tesla Model X comes in 6 and 7 seat configurations. If you don't like Muh Gullwings, then the Hyundai Ioniq 9 and the Kia EV9 come in a more conventional looking SUV package. Towing in these models is limited to 5000 lbs, so you can't pull a monster RV. That said should be sufficient for WookieMan's daily towing needs. Some even have 120v power outlets so you can convert from gas guzzling mowers/trimmers. Range is 300+ miles. That said, YMMV.

EBGuy says

So much whinging. The Tesla Model X comes in 6 and 7 seat configurations. If you don't like Muh Gullwings, then the Hyundai Ioniq 9 and the Kia EV9 come in a more conventional looking SUV package. Towing in these models is limited to 5000 lbs, so you can't pull a monster RV. That said should be sufficient for WookieMan's daily towing needs. Some even have 120v power outlets so you can convert from gas guzzling mowers/trimmers. Range is 300+ miles. That said, YMMV.

I have 3 boys my friend. They will all be 6'3" plus. I'm the runt in my family lineage at that height. So they might be 6'5" or more. No Tesla will work. I've done my research. Then carpooling with other kids that will be somewhat tall. I just took 5 kids this morning for basketball and not a chance in hell we'd all fit in a Tesla with school bag and athletic bag.

It's not whining, it's reality. I'm not dropping $100k+ as Al Sharpton posted. I can get an ICE for a fraction of the cost that's BIGGER than what he posted. Tows 9-10k. Fits the humans I have to deal with. No EV provides that. If an EV can town 9K, I'm stopping every 50-75 miles in areas that may not have chargers. My needs are not everyones, but I don't think most here have kids unless they're lurkers and don't post.

RWSGFY says

Eh? I have an old RWD sedan which is on par with base RWD Model3 performance-wise (260 hp, 5.8 sec to 60, 145 mph top speed).

The Model 3 Performance has a 0-60 at 2.9 sec. That is night and day difference. My long range Y does it in 4.4 seconds. .

Most people spending extra money to buy muscle cars and sports cars are typically car enthusiasts and know what they are getting. Some people spend thousands of dollars on standard ICE cars for mod packages just to shave half a second on acceleration because it is so noticable. Now imagine shaving nearly 4 seconds off your old RWD sedan!

Soccer and Wine moms getting a Tesla for a fraction of the cost of sports cars can sometimes let the cars get away from them.

socal2 says

Soccer and Wine moms getting a Tesla for a fraction of the cost of sports cars can sometimes let the cars get away from them.

So then why make that car? That's 50% plus of the population that will drive it. Probably closer to 70% as I only know personally one man that drives one. It's all chicks.

Not knocking you, but men just don't drive them. They are ugly. No utility if you have kids or do stuff. Yet to ever be sold on any model EV. Not picking on Tesla. My car makes any Tesla or other EV maker look gay. I can drive anywhere off road with 8 passengers. Maybe when the kids are out of the house and Tesla comes up with a full sized SUV not ugly car I'd think about it.

Hahahaha...Newsom outright declares that the EV bullshit is all political, nothing more:

WookieMan says

Not knocking you, but men just don't drive them

74% of Tesla drivers are male.

https://hedgescompany.com/blog/2018/11/tesla-owner-demographics/#:~:text=Tesla%20owner%20demographics%3A%20gender,-We%20looked%20at&text=Overall%2C%20Tesla%20owners%20skew%2074,%25%20female%2C%2074%25%20male.

WookieMan says

No utility if you have kids or do stuff.

There is plenty of room for my two H.S. aged kids, wife and even mother in law.

Besides, my wife's SUV is the main car to schlep kids and groceries around and for long road trips.

My Tesla is for fun. I am the only person in my car 95% of my driving.

Why buy a more expensive, slower, less safe and less fun car to drive around town?

socal2 says

RWSGFY says

Eh? I have an old RWD sedan which is on par with base RWD Model3 performance-wise (260 hp, 5.8 sec to 60, 145 mph top speed).

The Model 3 Performance has a 0-60 at 2.9 sec. That is night and day difference. My long range Y does it in 4.4 seconds. .

Most people spending extra money to buy muscle cars and sports cars are typically car enthusiasts and know what they are getting. Some people spend thousands of dollars on standard ICE cars for mod packages just to shave half a second on acceleration because it is so noticable. Now imagine shaving nearly 4 seconds off your old RWD sedan!

Soccer and Wine moms getting a Tesla for a fraction of the cost of sports cars can sometimes let the cars get away from them.

Let's not move the goalposts: my humble sedan came into picture as reaction to the assertion that even lowes-spec Teslas are supercars and hence it's normal for their drivers to kill themselves left and right. My sedan is exact performance equivalent of RWD Model 3. And it's not at all dangerous despite comparatively ancient electronics.

Also, while I understand how something like 1st gen Viper with no electronic nannies or Modern V8 Mustang, Camaro or Corvette with nannies disabled can get away from an inexperienced driver when the latter floors it, top-line Teslas are AWD and nannies can't be disabled. You floor it and it doesn't fishtail all over the road even on wet or ice/snow (I drove a rental MY LR to Kirkwood and Heavenly in winter conditions) whereas that Viper would easily swap ends even on dry asphalt. Teslas are pretty idiot-proof when it comes to traction issues related to power/torque. Not only traction and torque vectoring is controlled, the fucking thing can steer too!

So whatever it is, it's not power/torque issue.

RWSGFY says

Let's not move the goalposts:

That's what he does.

RWSGFY says

So whatever it is, it's not power/torque issue.

Even the FUD article that is generating all these headlines said it was driver's behavior which was primarily responsible and nothing innate with Tesla engineering or manufacturing of the vehicles.

I expect we will continue to see loads more anti-Tesla and anti-Elon hit pieces like this in the coming months now he is so hitched with Trump.

RWSGFY says

Let's not move the goalposts: my humble sedan came into picture as reaction to the assertion that even lowes-spec Teslas are supercars and hence it's normal for their drivers to kill themselves left and right. My sedan is exact performance equivalent of RWD Model 3. And it's not at all dangerous despite comparatively ancient electronics.

To reach those speeds in your ICE sedan requires massive intention (flooring it) and you will be hyper aware with the engine noise and quick gear changing.

Tesla's can quickly reach those speeds by barely leaning on the peddle and it is very quiet.

So maybe that makes Tesla's more dangerous to some who are not used to having that much power so easily available?

socal2 says

Why buy a more expensive, slower, less safe and less fun car to drive around town?

My car is 100% safer than any Tesla model. Just ride a bike if you're going 25mph. There are other options. Not everyone lives in a gay city which is what most are. My car was cheaper than any model of Tesla inflation adjusted. Bigger. And more UTILITY.

I don't care about speed. I don't drive recklessly. A Tesla is the antithesis to this.

Also I didn't qualify this. It's women and gay men that drive Teslas. So you're right about 70% women.

socal2 says

There is plenty of room for my two H.S. aged kids, wife and even mother in law.

All of whom are midgets apparently. Glad you can fit them and lose 100 miles due to weight.

socal2 says

RWSGFY says

Let's not move the goalposts: my humble sedan came into picture as reaction to the assertion that even lowes-spec Teslas are supercars and hence it's normal for their drivers to kill themselves left and right. My sedan is exact performance equivalent of RWD Model 3. And it's not at all dangerous despite comparatively ancient electronics.

To reach those speeds in your ICE sedan requires massive intention (flooring it) and you will be hyper aware with the engine noise and quick gear changing.

Tesla's can quickly reach those speeds by barely leaning on the peddle and it is very quiet.

So maybe that makes Tesla's more dangerous to some who are not used to having that much power so easily available?

What "these speeds"? If you are in traffic going 20-30 over when everybody goes +10 wil be immediately noticeable, so not buying the unawares argument. And if you are on an empty freeway you're not automatically killing yiurself by just doing 100-120. I sometimes do 100+ in a fucking full-size truck. (BTW, at speed the most of the noise is from the tires, not engine).Heck, I did 145 in Nevada once to check the top speed of then new to me car and didn't notice any drama.

What if all the excessive death are from the battery fires and hard-to-open doors?

RWSGFY says

What if all the excessive death are from the battery fires and hard-to-open doors?

My guess is reliance on the sensors with side impact. You can't stop a t-bone crash if someone blows a stop sign/light. Can't stop a sleepy/drunk/texting driver for head on impact without putting you in the ditch or on a city sidewalk mowing people over or wrapping around a light pole. Then you start on fire potentially and cannot get out.

I don't like driving road trips, but 300-400 miles, cool I can deal. I've fallen asleep on two trips and almost crashed, so I get the benefit of Tesla there on highways. But in rural areas people blowing stop signs is a massive problem. Especially when corn is up. No car sensor isn't gonna save you.

My t-bone accident a Tesla couldn't have stopped. Fortunately only 35mph, likely less as when I saw the bitch make her move I slammed on the brakes. I had the heavier car and completely tore off the back end of her car. If I didn't slam the brakes the passenger would have been in a world of hurt or dead. I have no clue if they make them anymore, never buy a Chevy Malibu. I hit her with a Buick.

Point of this novel is I don't trust electronics. I use them, but not for other people's stupidity. I use my eyes and ears. Wasn't my fault on my only accident, but it could have been worse for them. I've avoided probably 40-50 accidents commuting to and around Chicago. I'll trust me, not computers/sensors.

And yes Socal I do know you can drive Tesla like a standard car. We'll actually have a charging outlet in the new house. I'm not anti, it's just not for my uses. Get me one under $80k that can tow 5-9k lbs with at least 350 range and I'll likely be a buyer. I'm not seeing that happening. The reason Pepsi is using the cyber semi or whatever it's called is because they have shorter trailers for distribution. So the mass of the batteries doesn't matter. Your standard 52' (I believe) trailer would be likely overweight fully loaded. They're short range beer truck, soda, food with shorter trailers type trucks.

EV's have massive limitations and there's nothing you can do outside of adding more battery capacity $$$$$$$$. So I'm out for now.

RWSGFY says

What if all the excessive death are from the battery fires and hard-to-open doors?

Then the FUD report would be harping this claim to the moon and back.........instead of correctly reporting that excess deaths were due to driver behavior.

socal2 says

driver behavior.

Blame the human barbecues. They will eventually recycle the bodies for the lithium.

A seven seat Tesla Model X:



Versus
Seven seat Sequoia (makes the fifth man get into the third row):