patrick.net

Eman says

the big metros can still command 4.5-5 cap while the flyover states are trading at 6.5-8 cap

in the city of panama city beach, the cap rate is around 5% for a typical 3 bedroom townhome within 2 miles of the beach (if you have a property management company run your rental property)... combine that with an average annual appreciation of around 3% as we have boom and bust here as well

that is true Eman as far as risk/reward, as an investor can earn 7.5% easily in a 60 bond/40 stock fund especially when 1 year CD's return to a 3% rate

.

Eman says

Using data to prove the point

Eman, The Mish brings up exactly a two class system dilemma which applies to California: https://mishtalk.com/economics/the-feds-big-problem-there-are-two-economies-but-only-one-interest-rate/

As usual, The Mish is right on point: "There are two economies (the homeowners/asset holders and everyone else)."

.

AD says

that is true Eman as far as risk/reward, as an investor can earn 7.5% easily in a 60 bond/40 stock fund especially when 1 year CD's return to a 3% rate

How does one do this? I have an account with Charles Schwab

gabbar says

AD says

that is true Eman as far as risk/reward, as an investor can earn 7.5% easily in a 60 bond/40 stock fund especially when 1 year CD's return to a 3% rate

How does one do this? I have an account with Charles Schwab

why not just buy an ETF on Schwab like ticker "XCNS" ?

check out iShares Balanced ETFs , also Schwab has a Schwab Balanced Fund (ticker: "SWOBX") as well as Target Date Funds

.

Wow! I called it again! (The rate cut gaslighting in late last year was just that...gaslighting)

The average conforming 30-year fixed mortgage rate rose to 7.0% in the latest week, according to the Mortgage Bankers Association today. The daily measure by Mortgage News Daily has been over 7% for days. These are the highest rates since mid-December, when they were on their way down.

Mortgage rates had been flirting with 8% back in October last year when the rate-cut mongers fanned out in droves all over the media. Amid enormous hoopla about a gazillion rate cuts in 2024, starting in January, longer-term yields plunged. Mortgage rates plunged with them, with the average 30-year fixed mortgage rate, as tracked by the MBA, falling as low as 6.75% in mid-January. And it was going to be the next boom in the housing market. And then inflation data came in and called for order.



https://wolfstreet.com/2024/02/21/mortgage-rates-rise-back-to-7-housing-market-re-freezes-buyers-strike-continues-prices-are-just-too-high/

And who be the primary gaslighters? The RE Boondozzle Complex, that's who. The ones who depend upon getting Americans into mortgage debt slavery.





Didn't require Rocket Science to figure this out, kiddies.

So what is the excuse of the PatNet Rate Cut Gaslighting Fluffers on this thread, eh?

UkraineIsFucked says

Didn't require Rocket Science to figure this out, kiddies.

So what is the excuse of the PatNet Rate Cut Gaslighting Fluffers who pitched this here?

Median housing prices went up about 40% from January 2020 to present day ? It seems that housing prices were mostly steady from early 2022 to present day. So they peaked around February 2022 when the 30 year mortgage rate was about 3% (for a lot of zip codes like in the Florida panhandle).

So based on a hypothetical 30 year mortgage rate of 6% then prices need to go down 30% from the peak price set in 2022.

This is based on a 10% drop for a 1% increase in the mortgage rate.

However I would lower that adjustment from 30% to 20% since there were income and wage gains from February 2022 to present day.

Did not the median housing price drop almost 15% from the peak price ?

reference: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MSPUS

So the Federal Reserve is observing a housing price correction. I suspect if the 30 yr rate steadies between 5.5% and 6% and housing prices drop another 5% that we'll see more sales volume.

Other assets which are more liquid like Bitcoin and stocks had their correction already. The S&P 500 went down about 34% in 2020 and 23% in October 2022.

.

I'm not sure what the mortgage market is thinking by charging a 7% rate (along with an origination fee) when guvmint-reported annual inflation (i.e., PCE) is below 3% :-/

Maybe they hope housing will over-correct and drop another 20%, but its not liquid like stocks and Bitcoin so its likely going to drag out for at least 3 years.

I know someone who got an offer quickly on his 3 bedroom townhome for $310,000 because he has a balance of around $280,000 on a 2.5% rate, 30 year assumable mortgage... he listed it for $330,000... he bought it for around $290,000 in late 2022....

I wonder if assumable mortgages are common now that mortgage rates are over 6%, and what percentage of sales are with mortgages being assumed. It could allow for prices to not have to drop as much.

AD says

I'm not sure what the mortgage market is thinking by charging a 7% rate (along with an origination fee) when guvmint-reported annual inflation (i.e., PCE) is below 3% :-/

Maybe they hope housing will over-correct and drop another 20%, but its not liquid like stocks and Bitcoin so its likely going to drag out for at least 3 years.

.

Because the government inflation stats are bullshit?

Also, rates are not set only by inflation. Boomers have left their peak pre-retirement saving/investing years (which kept rates low) and now are drawing down (which raises rates), for example. This was always baked into the cake demographically. Rates won't go down again like in the 2000s until Millennials enter their peak earning/saving pre-retirement years. That will be 2035 at the earliest.

UkraineIsFucked says

rates are not set only by inflation. Boomers have left their peak pre-retirement saving/investing years (which kept rates low) and now are drawing down (which raises rates), for example. This was always baked into the cake demographically. Rates won't go down again like in the 2000s until Millennials enter their peak earning/saving pre-retirement years. That will be 2035 at the earliest.

okay so it has to do with demand as there is little demand in the mortgage-backed securities market place for 30 yr mortgage rates at 5% to 6% ?

there is less money inflow for bonds and mortgage-backed securities such as for IRAs and 401k's ?

i understand there is less foreign buyers such as from China going back to the start of 2014

.

.AD says

okay so it has to do with demand as there is little demand in the mortgage-backed securities market place for 30 yr mortgage rates at 5% to 6% ?

On the supply side, yes.

AD says

there is less money inflow for bonds and mortgage-backed securities such as for IRAs and 401k's ?

There is a net reduction. When retirees are drawing down from IRAs/401ks they aren't putting money into them either. Esp since they are no longer employed

Boomers are demographicly outsized in everything they effect economically. Including retirement and death.

When they were born, we couldn't build diaper factories fast enough. Then we had to build and staff a shitload of schools. Then we had high unemployment, interest rates and price inflation in their early to mid adult years as they flooded labor and credit markets. At least we were still building houses back then.

So it was always baked into the cake.

We were always going to get here, at this time. As they retire: tighter labor markets, less savings supply, higher interest rates, exploding entitlement spending, more nursing & funeral homes.

And more diapers again. I think the industry sells more of the adult diapers than baby diapers already.

And when the Boomers hit peak die-off starting in the middle to late parts of this decade, the greatest transfer of generational wealth will occur, too.

Rates WILL come down if Biden 100% runs for office. Even if it's Kamala or Newsom they're coming down. They need economic positives. Kills my plans but overall I think they still need to be hiking them. Election year. Whatever. They will come down. Give it time.

The Democrats are losing young voters that cannot buy a home. 20-30 because of rates. He's gonna lose a lot of votes.

During the last great inflation, the fixed rate 30-year topped out around 17% in 1981. Gold also spiked at over $900 (how quaint) around that time.

We'll see how the weaponization of the SWIFT system goes for the PRUSA. Just a hint - when you weaponize the "world reserve currency" in order to further neocon/globohomo goals, things don't end well at all.

Inventory is building up fast in both Florida.

Here comes the Florida housing crash!



Property Insurance and Taxes have skyrocketed (Insurance is up 68% during the Scamdemic, most insurers left the state, and the 2 statewide companies remaining want another 53% increase); meanwhile rents are dropping as all the Northerners got called back to their home offices back North and listing their new property for rent simultaneously and their equity is limited. Investors are getting burned because the carrying costs rose by double digit percentages while rents aren't keeping pace.

All the peak 2020-2022 buyers are getting squeezed. Then will come the older boomers born in the 40s and early 50s now unable to perform ADLs or handle a 1600 sq ft home alone.

Prices have already returned to the first quarter of 2023. There's plenty of room to drop. I'm calling 30% drops.

Winter is the buying season in Florida, and while the inventory is returning to normal levels, the buying isn't.

Anecdotal: The number of homes for sale in Central Florida by eyeball have doubled in the last 6 months according to my eyeballs.

WookieMan says

Rates WILL come down if Biden 100% runs for office. Even if it's Kamala or Newsom they're coming down. They need economic positives. Kills my plans but overall I think they still need to be hiking them. Election year. Whatever. They will come down. Give it time.

Government can influence rates but market funfamemtals ultimately sets them. Esp.if they don't trust the government's inflation story. Or debt issuance story.

At the beginning of the Clinton administration in the early 1990s, adviser James Carville was stunned at the power the bond market had over the government. If he came back, Carville said: I used to think if there was reincarnation, I wanted to come back as the president or the pope or a .400 baseball hitter. But now I want to come back as the bond market. You can intimidate everybody.

Wall Street Journal (February 25, 1993, p. A1)

So from a government influence POV: mortgage rates will only go down if the Fed once again purchase on net vast amounts of MBSs and does so via monetization, like they did before.

That's not likely to happen.

Oh, and Congress will have to drastically cut back on debt spending, too. The deficits are so damn large they now effect interest rates accordingly.

So basically, Treasury Dept would have to cut back on T-bill auctions (which determine what rates most other debt instruments - like mortgages - also have) while the Fed would have to simultaneously stop reversing QE and resume MBS mass purchases.

If they don't do both, the market won't react well. Rates will rise or at least won't drop.

Hint: they won't cut down on the spending. Not in an election year

And even if they do pull this off, the desired effects of that will take some time to pan out. Election is just over 6 months from now.

Fun fact: Mainland Monroe County, if it was a county itself, would be the least densely inhabited county in the United States, despite being an hour drive from Miami.

99.98% of Monroe County residents live in the Keys; the rest is the Everglades and Big Cyprus park.

How long can stubborn homeloaners hold out?

Investors are pulling way back.

AmericanKulak says

How long can stubborn homeloaners hold out?

Investors are pulling way back.

The next bottom for Orlando investors is going to be higher than the 2009 bottom. It is now 1500, so likely more downside risk to eventually bottom around 1000 to 1300.

.

AmericanKulak says

Property Insurance and Taxes have skyrocketed (Insurance is up 68% during the Scamdemic, most insurers left the state, and the 2 statewide companies remaining want another 53% increase)

Our HOA master insurance in Florida Panhandle went down. It was $310,000 now $258,000 based on replacement value of $35 million for 157 townhome units.

It was $60,000 in 2018 for replacement of $25 million.

So American Kulak, you are calling a 30% drop from peak prices for most of Florida ?

That would mean prices would bottom to 2020 levels for our townhome community in the Florida Panhandle.

That would wipe out the pandemic gains while income/wages have gone up about 21% during 2020 to 2024 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

Our townhome about 2 miles from white beach sand and emerald color water was new $187,000 in 2016, and around $230,000 in April 2020, and peaked around $335,000 in March 2022. They rented for $1500 in 2016 now easily rent for $2200.

.

AD says

Our HOA master insurance in Florida Panhandle went down. It was $310,000 now $258,000 based on replacement value of $35 million for 157 townhome units.

Your experience is unique. Everywhere, no just my condo assoc but everywhere in Central, East, and South Florida, from St. Lucie to Kissimmee to way west in Broward County, everybody's insurance is up big league. My Condo Fees went up 40% in 2 years and almost all of it was Insurance costs. My mother's went up 50% and a buddy in a Saint Lucie community had his go up 30%.

AD says

That would mean prices would bottom to 2020 levels for our townhome community in the Florida Panhandle.

That would wipe out the pandemic gains while income/wages have gone up about 21% during 2020 to 2024 ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

That's not a surprise. Florida is still famous for some of the lowest wages in the country. The boomers are baked in, but the Scamdemic Refugees created a massive upswing in demand, and 2 in 5 people who move to Florida return to whence they came historically in normal conditions (don't like the lack of seasons, low pay, or just the environment once they live here for a while and not just visit the Beach or Disney for a few weeks).

Florida has gotten extremely UNaffordable in the last decade, and wages are still nowhere near compensating, and most of the housing demand is from working age locals. Retirees on a fixed income are also cutting back on things due to inflation. It used to be the wages were shit, but the cost of going to eat or going on a fisher charter or renting an entire 3bed/2bath basic ranch were rock bottom. $2000+ on the panhandle for townhouses is an all-time high. How many servers at Ron & Sally's Beer and Fish Camp can afford $2000+ rents? Split between 2 roomates that's still $1000/month plus half of all utilities.

Florida is also famous, pre-Scamdemic and pre-Financial Crisis, for having wild swings in prices for housing.

As Jimmy Breslin would say "And this is one of them."

No state has had it worse than Florida, where the average price of home insurance increased 68% in two years — nearly double the nationwide average of 35%.

...

Here are the top five states where home insurance got more expensive from May 2021 to May 2023.

Florida: 68% ($1,127 to $1,896)
New Mexico: 47% ($855 to $1,255)
Colorado: 46% ($1,390 to $2,031)
Idaho: 46% ($552 to $804)
Texas: 46% ($1,471 to $2,141)

https://money.com/home-insurance-prices-soaring-states/

Castle Key, Amica Mutual seek 54% rate increase for Florida home insurance policies
Brandon Girod Pensacola News Journal

Two Florida property insurers are seeking approval for a 54% average rate increase from the Florida Office of Insurance Regulation (OIR).

Amica Mutual Insurance Company is asking the OIR to approve a 54.1% increase in rates for its dwelling fire policies, which covers about 500 insureds, according to the Insurance Journal. If approved, the rate increase would go into effect in July.

Castle Key Indemnity Company also filed a request to approve a 53.5% increase for its HO-6 policies, which are homeowners insurance policies for condominium units.

New Florida insurance companies:While many home insurance companies are leaving Florida, these 6 are opening soon

Castle Key, an insurance company owned by the Allstate Insurance Group, already raised the rates of as many as 105,247 HO-6 policyholders last May using the use-and-file approach, which allows insurers to raise their rates before getting approval from regulators.

However, should the Florida OIR find the increase unwarranted, Castle Key could be asked to refund some or all of it, according to the Insurance Journal.

The Florida OIR will hear Castle Key’s rate request at 9 a.m. on Feb. 21.

https://www.pnj.com/story/money/2024/02/14/florida-homeowners-insurance-companies-seek-rate-increase-castle-key-amica/72586132007/

AmericanKulak says

$2000+ on the panhandle for townhouses is an all-time high. How many servers at Ron & Sally's Beer and Fish Camp can afford $2000+ rents? Split between 2 roomates that's still $1000/month plus half of all utilities.

My townhome community about 2 miles from beach in Florida panhandle / Panama City Beach has 3 bedrooms with 2 car garage renting for $2200. Average monthly utilities are about $50 internet, $45 water/sewer, and $100 electricity.

The starting hourly pay is $16 for entry level such as at The Blake (nursing home and assisted living), Walmart Front Beach Road, Pompano Joes and Bay Point Resort, plus expect to work overtime or about 50 hours a week from early May to mid September. They usually increase the hourly pay to $18 in 3 months.

Its common to have 3 people sharing a townhome each making at least $650 a week.

Its not as much as a two-class system in the Florida panhandle. You could easily save money and live relatively comfortable with entry level or working class jobs, which is a foreign concept if you live in California.

I've talked with one tenant (20 year old male, entry level worker) in my townhome community who is saving at least $300 a month in their 401k with mostly a S&P 500 fund.

..

AD says

Average monthly utilities are about $50 internet, $45 water/sewer, and $100 electricity.

My mom doesn't have property down there anymore, but I'm not buying that. Not sure if you have kids, but I'm double that on all three. And I shop prices constantly.

AD says

I've talked with one tenant (20 year old male, entry level worker) in my townhome community who is saving at least $300 a month in their 401k with mostly a S&P 500 fund.

Tell him more. I know some don't like 401K's, but max it out. Don't care about future taxes. If you aren't paying for kids and the house is paid off, you don't need to draw much money out of it. SS kicks in. It's one of the fastest ways to grow wealth. He should be doing at least $600/mo if not more. If he can.

WookieMan says

AD says

Average monthly utilities are about $50 internet, $45 water/sewer, and $100 electricity.

My mom doesn't have property down there anymore, but I'm not buying that. Not sure if you have kids, but I'm double that on all three. And I shop prices constantly.

It averages about $145 a month during the very hot summer months (middle June to middle September) for our townhome in Florida panhandle and we have 3 adults that live in our home and set the thermostat to 71 in summer and do not need heat during the winter. Our electric bill for January was $43.

The internet is $50 for us with at least 2 TV's streaming, plus we only use free streaming like FreeVee, Pluto TV, Tubi, and Roku.

They charge 1 cent per gallon for extra water usage more than 9000 gallons in two month period. We do not go over that limit so we only pay $50 a month for water/sewer.
.

AD says

The starting hourly pay is $16 for entry level such as at The Blake (nursing home and assisted living), Walmart Front Beach Road, Pompano Joes and Bay Point Resort, plus expect to work overtime or about 50 hours a week from early May to mid September. They usually increase the hourly pay to $18 in 3 months.

That's $2560 / month pre-tax/pre-health and other withholds.

Let's do a very generous $2250 after tax and benefit contributions.

If it's $700 to split a 3bed, that leaves $1550.

Then add phone, electric: $100

Now down to $1450

How much is groceries if you ate every meal in? $500 if you're super frugal and never eat out.

That's not my 19-year old bachelor meals of bbq's 3x a week with pounds of 99c/lb of Ground Beef, 69c buns, and 89c Chips. That $500 is oatmeal, spaghetti, and very infrequent $7+/lb ground beef or chicken. A freakin box of generic store brand Oreos for the kids is $4 today.

$950 now.

Car Insurance and maintenance $100.

$850

Car Payment no less than $300 for a jalopy with good credit.

Now it's $550.

That $550 has to cover everything from replacing worn socks or tire to laundry to anything else that comes up for an entire month.

Edit: I forgot to mention GAS

It's $15 to have a burger at a diner (not a fancy place) now. A friday night dinner and a couple of beers at a cheap restaurant/bar is $25-30.

It'll be a long time to save a down payment with that, assuming nothing goes wrong at all in your life.

A 20-year old might pull that off, but eventually something is going to go wrong: Car breakdown, injury, etc.

$31k was shitty money a decade ago.

BTW, I was getting $1500/month for my studio two years ago, which I think is insane.

$1500 a decade ago would have gotten an entire modern stand alone house, not on the beach but a 10 minute drive from it.

Eman says

I see. Using data to prove the point, but when the same data is being presented, it’s irrelevant as it doesn’t fit the narrative. No double standard at all. 👏👏👏

Homie,

It's true, fancy pants statistics, data tables, etc contain accurate information. But they don't tell facts on the ground, so they don't give a complete picture.

Just ask Robert McNamara.

One other quick mention: The Florida 10-15 year cycle (which existed before the Fin Crisis of 2008 or COVID leap) always, but always, starts but doesn't end with Condos.

Always.

AmericanKulak says

One other quick mention: The Florida 10-15 year cycle (which existed before the Fin Crisis of 2008 or COVID leap) always, but always, starts but doesn't end with Condos.

Always.

What is the Florida cycle?

GNL says

What is the Florida cycle?

Coming out of a huge price collapse, developers start building/refurbishing condos, then townhouses/duplexes, then SFHs. Good economy causes prices to skyrocket and out-of-state investors swoop in. For a few years all is good, then the economy overheats and there's a glut of new condos, the developers and investors begin slicing prices and halting construction, it starts spreading to townhomes and then SFHs, and much (not all) of the gains of the past decade or so get wiped out.

Early-mid 90s was the last "Natural" one, followed by late 2000s. We're due right about now, and Florida inventory is rising rapidly but the buyers this Snowbird season have been staying away in droves.

Last year was the least amount of RE transactions since 1993. When the population was younger and 20-25% smaller.

The Cope is that interest rates will drop and reignite the boom. Meanwhile, in market after market, rents are substantially cheaper than mortgage payments. In suburban Miami, meh 1200-1400ft ranches, no pool, 30-40 years old that were going for $350k a decade ago are now asking $600k, but can be rented for $3000. There's substantial but less dramatic examples in Tampa, Jax, etc. metro areas but looks like this time the real first domino is SW Florida/Ft. Myers area

Inventory has almost returned to pre-COVID levels.

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/ACTLISCOUFL

This 1990 built 1040sq ft house way out in the Orlando/Kissimmee suburbs with a high traffic commute was $164k just prior to the financial crisis collapse, then sold for $75k in 2010. Guess what's being asked now.

https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1700-Citrus-View-Ct-Saint-Cloud-FL-34769/46297380_zpid/

A crack smokin' $265k. You'd have to be insane to pay $1750/month with very good credit, for this 1000 sq footer. Remember, it's nowhere near a beach (about an hour drive), this is a commuter starter home with low-end and ancient appliances and tiny rooms. No pool or land either despite being far out.

You could get an apartment or townhouse 10 minutes from work near downtown Orlando with the same square footage, and all new, for about the same in rent without sitting in traffic for 45 minutes.

Here's a rental unit for $1450:
https://www.zillow.com/apartments/orlando-fl/lorenzo-at-east-mil/5XhxrT/

And it's 300 sq ft larger and much closer to downtown/built up areas where the jobs are.

Or this similar sized apartment:
https://www.zillow.com/apartments/orlando-fl/ridge-club-apartments/5Xhxzk/

No ancient dog ass wiped or old man leaking carpet, recent floors, etc. and save an hour or more a day and $300 bucks.

What does old @Patrick say about rent vs. buy? Does anybody think that shack way out towards the rural part is going to appreciate from $265k much in the next few years? $305k by 2030? C'mon.

Existing home sales numbers came out today.

The volume sucked. The median home price reached an all-time high for the month of January, and the percent of people paying all cash was 32%.

AmericanKulak says

AD says

The starting hourly pay is $16 for entry level such as at The Blake (nursing home and assisted living), Walmart Front Beach Road, Pompano Joes and Bay Point Resort, plus expect to work overtime or about 50 hours a week from early May to mid September. They usually increase the hourly pay to $18 in 3 months.

That's $2560 / month pre-tax/pre-health and other withholds.

Let's do a very generous $2250 after tax and benefit contributions.

If it's $700 to split a 3bed, that leaves $1550.

Then add phone, electric: $100

Now down to $1450

How much is groceries if you ate every meal in? $500 if you're super frugal and never eat out.

The service workers (i.e., restaurant, hotel, etc.) in my townhome community about 2 miles from the beach in Florida panhandle are making at least $18 an hour now.

They pay no more than $130 a month for a bronze plan with subsidized Obamcare since their "Modified Adjusted Gross Income" (M-AGI) is no more than $35,000. Usually they work 50 hours per week (i.e., 12 hour days on Thursday-Saturday) during season and 30 hours during off season.

Roughly one-third of the M-AGI goes to rent and utilities.

So they have about $1944 in pre-tax or gross income per month after rent and utilities.

Net 10, Mint , etc have no more than $20 plans per month for unlimited phone and text.

Groceries should be no more than $10 a day regardless if they get free meals where they work.

A rotisserie chicken at a local Publix (i.e., high end) is around $7.15 and lasts 2 days for 2 people.

A lot do not have cars and drive mopeds or use a bicycle as they are only 2 miles from the beach job centers. Also we have public transportation (i.e., bus service).

.

AmericanKulak says

Biden going to be giving away more money like student loan forgiveness freebies all the way to this November. It will lead to more inflationary pressure.

"The Biden-Harris Administration has fought tirelessly to provide borrowers the relief they have earned. In total, the Administration has now approved debt cancellation for nearly 3.9 million hard-working Americans totaling almost $138 billion in relief."
++++ US Dept of Education

,

@AmericanKulak,

Great analysis on the cost of living and salary. SFAce used to break down similar numbers on the cost of living and housing prices and why some people bought and lived where they did, and why the Bay Area keeps attracting top talents even with expensive cost of living. Bravo 👏👏👏

AD says

So they have about $1944 in pre-tax or gross income per month after rent and utilities.

Net 10, Mint , etc have no more than $20 plans per month for unlimited phone and text.

Groceries should be no more than $10 a day regardless if they get free meals where they work.

A rotisserie chicken at a local Publix (i.e., high end) is around $7.15 and lasts 2 days for 2 people.

Still $300/month in groceries alone.

As for the Publix Rotisiere Chicken, you'd die just eating that alone. It's only 1260 calories, about half the daily necessary calories for a sedentary male. No Mayo? No Mustard? No Potatoes? No Bread?
https://www.publix.com/pd/publix-deli-original-oven-roasted-chicken---hot/RIO-HC1-119882

I'd say $15/day is more accurate. That's $450/month, eating every meal at home and being very thrifty with meal planning, measuring portions, few and not expensive snacks, no expensive condiments like Pesto or Siracha, 1 daily cup of coffee, not much if any drinking, etc. The minimum to eat at home comfortably is closer to $500/month. I see families of 4 with a $300 weekly grocery bill, and there you're getting economy of scale. Publix Subs are great but still $7 and up, and around 1200-1400 calories.

Where's the car payment (keeping in mind almost nothing is immediately drivable under $10k), car insurance, gas? Easily another $500 absolute bare minimum with excellent credit and a downpayment (which 20 somethings starting out don't have much of either), car ins. and gas if the place is around the corner.

AmericanKulak says

Now, where's that car payment

There is no car payment as most of the service workers living on the beach in the Florida panhandle use a bicycle or moped, and sometimes the county bus system. Some are more sophisticated and have electric bikes. But they live on the beach to only be within a 2.5 mile walk of any potential service job.

AmericanKulak says

I'd say $15/day is more accurate.

No, $10 is more accurate for Bay County, Florida especially the Walmart on 23rd Street in Panama City. I know first-hand from shopping around that $10 per person is very reasonable in the Florida panhandle. The county is very pro active as far as sidewalks and bike lanes.

You can eat well on $10 a day with Great Value, which is Walmart's brand like oatmeal, raisan bran cereal, cannelli beans, etc. 1 egg, wheat toast, and raisin bran cereal for breakfast would cost about $2, a can of Progresso soup is $2.25, and that leaves plenty (+$5) for dinner like a half a rotissiere chicken.

.

AD says

There is no car payment as most of the service workers living on the beach in the Florida panhandle use a bicycle or moped, and sometimes the county bus system. Some are more sophisticated and have electric bikes. But they live on the beach to only be within a 2.5 mile walk of any potential service job.

C'mon man. County Bus system in the Panhandle? Walking 2.5 miles or waiting half an hour for the bus in July in 90F 90% humidity and by the time they get to work, they'll need to shower before the Manager would let them approach customers. The ladies would be looking like Tammy Fae Baker by the time they walked or waited for the bus, and have a 6 inch sweat spot on their pits

AD says

No, $10 is more accurate for Bay County, Florida especially the Walmart on 23rd Street in Panama City. I know first-hand from shopping around that $10 per person is very reasonable in the Florida panhandle. The county is very pro active as far as sidewalks and bike lanes.

You can eat well on $10 a day with Great Value, which is Walmart's brand like oatmeal, raisan bran cereal, cannelli beans, etc. 1 egg, wheat toast, and raisin bran cereal for breakfast would cost about $2, a can of Progresso soup is $2.25, and that leaves plenty (+$5) for dinner like a half a rotissiere chicken.

Are they walking to the Walmart and Publix too in that heat and carrying those bags home? Or a 2 hour round trip just to get there by taking the bus (.5 hour wait + .5 hour drive because stops, then back)

And GMO corn syrupy, soy oil laden hell is in that Great Value?

AmericanKulak says

Publix Subs are great but still $7 and up, and around 1200-1400 calories.

Great Value wheat as well as honey wheat bread is $2 at Walmart. That lasts at least 1 week for 1 person.

You can get 2 pounds of Great Value cooked ham for $6.50 at the Walmart on 23rd St in Panama City.

I like going to the 23rd Street Walmart because there is usually a Pentecostal preacher with a megaphone on the sidewalk entrance who puts on good preaching.

The preacher's van with Alabama license plates has a few bumper stickers like "My Church Allows Dancing With Snakes" and another sticker says "F&%$ Biden".
.

Hey listen, I ain't saying Great Value isn't cheap, but I can't imagine the corn syrup filler hell that it that bread. I do shop at Dollar Store, but for things like Boxed Milk ($1.25)

All I'm saying is, it's a lousy life to have to take county buses to do anything in 90F 90% humidity.

My mass transit is fine, it goes up and down A1A like clockwork - but only on the beach. Try taking a bus to the mainland and you're talking half hour waits, and a half dozen stops with a half hour or more to get where I could get in 5 minutes by car, 10 during the weekends or rush hour.