patrick.net

mell says

The excess deaths from covid on the other hand for the whole year, 15 months before, were hardly visible!

Really? I can see them quite clearly on this chart!

DeficitHawk says

Onvacation says

Do you have links to these studies or did you just hear about it on the news?

These studies have been publicly available. there are lots of them you can just google double blind covid vaccine study. Ive been reading them since they started phase 1 studies in 2020. They did much larger statistical studies in 2021. They are available for pfizer, moderna, jansson, etc.

heres one for astra zeneca for example:

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ctr-med-7111/D8110C00001/a07258a5-fe26-409c-a940-ae25552c538b/7e743468-f278-44fe-9148-a50e0477e4f3/D8110C00001_Clinical_Study_Report_Synopsis_Redacted-v1.pdf

They generally include ...

If you read the study you posted it shows zero efficacy. Their endpoints are antibodies and covid infection cases within 90 days which are meaningless. It is established that most jabs elicit a short lived immune response just long enough for the duration of the study, thus reducing the number of symptomatic covid infections. However after 3-4 months that effect is gone and protection goes negative and risk of severe illness or events rises dramatically, subsequent jabs damage the immune system further until the patient literally will become severely ill or die. And even if you take the 90 days in the study only, the number of serious events/deaths in the jab vs placebo group are equal! The jab DOES NOT WORK!

DeficitHawk says

https://s3.amazonaws.com/ctr-med-7111/D8110C00001/a07258a5-fe26-409c-a940-ae25552c538b/7e743468-f278-44fe-9148-a50e0477e4f3/D8110C00001_Clinical_Study_Report_Synopsis_Redacted-v1.pdf

Why are parts regarding "efficacy" redacted?
DeficitHawk says

https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e2.htm#T1_down
https://doh.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2022-02/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf

From your study:

Why do you suppose the biggest peak in Wuhan deaths occurred after vaxxing started?

The cognitive dissonance hurts at first but don't give up on facts.

mell says

If you read the study you posted it shows zero efficacy.

This is NOT the conclusion of the paper. If you dont like the methodology of this report, find one you like better. there are lots of them available from the 2020-2021 time period.

Onvacation says

Why are parts regarding "efficacy" redacted?

They have to do that because the Clintons killed some of the subjects.

Onvacation says

Why do you suppose the biggest peak in Wuhan deaths occurred after vaxxing started?

The cognitive dissonance hurts at first but don't give up on facts.

No matter the overall infection rate going on at the time, the death rate of vaccinated people is significantly lower than non vaccinated. so even if there was a big wave at that time, the relative mortality rate shows that the vaccine was lowering death rates compared to unvaccinated groups.

DeficitHawk says

mell says

If you read the study you posted it shows zero efficacy.

This is NOT the conclusion of the paper. If you dont like the methodology of this report, find one you like better. there are lots of them available from the 2020-2021 time period.

Their conclusion is irrelevant, if you give a jab and you have the same outcomes for the placebo group as for the treatment arm, then it has no efficacy. You could inject yourself with the needle all day to prevent the thousands of strains of cold and flu viruses that go around, but you would eventually die from the jabs, either from their brutal side effects or from ADE. And your likelihood to never get seriously ill from any of those viruses is 99.99%. There is a reason we never have attempted to create vaccines for all the highly mutating common cold and flu viruses, because ADE will eventually kill the vaccinated. Again, the math said 7 serious outcomes in both groups, so it's not effective, and the long term side effects are of course unknown with such a short study duration.

You guys are seriously debating the 2020 election? Because a senile pedophile getting more votes than Obama is so realistic. Because pipes bursting at the exact time votes need to be counted, then a huge swing for one party happens all the time. Because we routinely see videos of Democrat voting monitors posting live that they are being prevented from over-seeing the vote counting(Pennsylvania). Because boarding up all the windows so no one can see what your doing is super routine.

I'm not against debate, but if you are this in denial of the truth two years later, I'd say it's pointless. Why not pick a now topic like how Democrats have become the Neo-Cons they always hated.

Mell, maybe you will like the methodology of this report better.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2113017

It did a better job documenting the incidence of severe illness in the placebo vs vaccine groups over a longer period.

If you dont like that one, there are more, but I will invite you to search for them. there are ones with the fatality counts, illness counts, etc from the initil phase 1 studies, etc. As I was reading them in 2021 I got the the point of feeling it was becoming unethical to have placebo groups in these studies, because the study participants who got placebo were dying.

DeficitHawk says

Mell, maybe you will like the methodology of this report better.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2113017

It did a better job documenting the incidence of severe illness in the placebo vs vaccine groups over a longer period.

If you dont like that one, there are more, but I will invite you to search for them. there are ones with the fatality counts, illness counts, etc from the initil phase 1 studies, etc. As I was reading them in 2021 I got the the point of feeling it was becoming unethical to have placebo groups in these studies, because the study participants who got placebo were dying.

They enrolled 30k participants, and noted 6 (!) severe covid infections in the placebo group.vs 1 in the mrna group, 0 deaths. The amount of side effects (mild, moderate, serious) was at the minimum doubled in the mrma group. With less than 0.3% serious illness in all participants and no deaths, how can anyone conclude any statistically significance effcacy from that? There is no efficacy.

DeficitHawk says

Studies showed significantly lower mortality for people in vaccinated groups than unvaccinated. I didnt really see any studies that reached a different conclusion.

This is the sort of data I am referring to when I say I believe vaccines lowered fatality rates from COVID

You don't get it yet do you?

We just went through a "pandemic" of which there was a death rate around 0.02% while small companies (only) were forcibly shut down, and we were told the vaccines would end transmission.

They don't have any credibility anymore. You can no longer trust "studies". These people, in a study, over-medicated a test group with hydroxycholoriquine knowing it would kill them, published the study in The Lancet, and had it pulled. They purposely killed people.

People still pointing to obviously compromised authorities haven't done the work to realize they are compromised. A great deal of people here have spent the time and effort. If you want to take the vaccine, go ahead, but it makes no difference to you if anybody is vaccinated, they still pass on the disease. The risk is exclusively with the person that takes the injection.

This is obvious at this point. You can argue that it's to a person's benefit to trust the authorities still, but there's people going beyond that and demanding they get the shot, and they don't have a leg to stand on. The authorities lied. They have permanently lost their credibility with a great number of people. If you still trust them, that's on you.

Honestly, at this point, I hope people like you continue to trust the authorities. It would be nice to live in a world without a bunch of clueless sheeplike Karen's for a few years.

mell says

noted 6 (!) severe covid infections in the placebo group.vs 1 in the mrna

Not sure we read the same report: I see 2 in the mrna group and 106 in placebo group.

Vaccine efficacy in preventing Covid-19 illness was 93.2% (95% confidence interval [CI], 91.0 to 94.8), with 55 confirmed cases in the mRNA-1273 group (9.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 7.2 to 12.5) and 744 in the placebo group (136.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 127.0 to 146.8). The efficacy in preventing severe disease was 98.2% (95% CI, 92.8 to 99.6), with 2 cases in the mRNA-1273 group and 106 in the placebo group,

richwicks says

You can no longer trust "studies".

Oh ok. I think maybe this is the sentiment that is causing dispute.. not different conclusions from the same study...

Well, I think I will stop spending time trying to find data for you all if you arent going to believe it anyway.

DeficitHawk says

richwicks says

You can no longer trust "studies".

Oh ok. I think maybe this is the sentiment that is causing dispute.. not different conclusions from the same study...

Well, I think I will stop spending time trying to find data for you all if you arent going to believe it anyway.

Look, try to convince us there was a pandemic.

That ought to be simple. I live in Silly Con Valley, there's PLENTY of homeless people here, I didn't see any dead bodies on the street.

There's a point where people just get sick of being lied to, and then beyond that, people get sick of the suckers that still don't realize they're being lied to.

We have direct data based on excess deaths on what happened with nations that ignored this "pandemic" and those that did lockdowns and forced vaccinations. You've taken an experimental injection for a disease that posed little or no risk to you, in my viewpoint that was foolish and naive of you, but it's YOUR decision. Where I drew the line is when many of you demanded I do the same.

You think you're wasting time with US, the truth is, we've wasted more than enough time with you. Trying to talk sense to fools, what's the point? Do whatever you want to do but do not impose what you've been relentlessly propagandized into believing through mass media on us. Is this unreasonable?

MRNA and DNA vaccines have been worked on for over 20 years, and FOUR companies MAGICALLY came up wit a solution in under a year, all at the same time. I work in high tech, this shit doesn't happen. I have no fucking idea what you were injected with, but I know pretty damned well, whatever it was, wasn't some breakthrough that happened concurrently with 4 corporations - 1 or 2 maybe, but not 4. Good luck.

DeficitHawk says

mell says

noted 6 (!) severe covid infections in the placebo group.vs 1 in the mrna

Not sure we read the same report: I see 2 in the mrna group and 106 in placebo group.

Vaccine efficacy in preventing Covid-19 illness was 93.2% (95% confidence interval [CI], 91.0 to 94.8), with 55 confirmed cases in the mRNA-1273 group (9.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 7.2 to 12.5) and 744 in the placebo group (136.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 127.0 to 146.8). The efficacy in preventing severe disease was 98.2% (95% CI, 92.8 to 99.6), with 2 cases in the mRNA-1273 group and 106 in the placebo group,

I was looking at the intent to treat analysis mentioned at the end where it was 6 vs 1. I am not interested in their narrative spin, what matters is the math of the outcome, and that is as follows:
"A total of 32 deaths had occurred by completion of the blinded phase, with 16 deaths each (0.1%) in the placebo and mRNA-1273 groups; no deaths were considered to be related to injections of placebo or vaccine, and 4 were attributed to Covid-19 (3 in the placebo group and 1 in the mRNA-1273 group) (Tables S19 and S26)"

It doesn't matter what they attributed serious events or deaths to, then only thing that matters are the raw numbers at unblinking. Even if you believed 106 severe covid out of 15000 you will see their footnote saying that high risk factors such as obesity amd diabetes were very predominant amongst the severe cases. If you take the average healthy person in the study, they had virtually zero risk of death or severe covid infection. Again, after unblinding 16 were dead in each group, what dies that tell you?

DeficitHawk says

This was Trump and Trump supporters.

There certainly were some Trump supporters who broke the law. Trump however did not break the law, nor did he suggest that anyone should become violent. Quite the opposite in fact. Furthermore the vast majority of Trump supporters were peaceful. Trump himself was peaceful. Only a small fraction of people were out of line, and it is a fact that undercover government agents were there as well as other agitators not affiliated with the Trump crowd that influenced the mob to behave badly. The feds and leftists wanted violence in order to vilify Trump and his supporters. Unfortunately some fell into this obvious trap.

I’ve talked to a lot of Trump supporters and none of them would commit or support violence like what happened on J6. It is only a fringe element of people I would not associate with that could even consider violence, and in fact most Trump supporters don’t and didn’t go to Washington because they are not activists they are just people who want to live in peace and liberty.

What would you do if you believed your candidate won the election with historic numbers, and that districts and states run by the opposition party fudged the numbers in the dead of night to steal the election?

DeficitHawk says

Id say you dont get to claim Trump did a peaceful handoff because of how he manipulated a crowd to violence on Jan 6.

What did Trump say, that people should bring their weapons and a noose to The Capitol?. If Trump incited violence he is terrible at it because if he wanted an insurrection he could have told people to come armed. No, he did not incite violence and in fact the only person who fired a weapon that day was a government employee who shot and killed an unarmed woman.

mell says

DeficitHawk says

mell says

noted 6 (!) severe covid infections in the placebo group.vs 1 in the mrna

Not sure we read the same report: I see 2 in the mrna group and 106 in placebo group.

Vaccine efficacy in preventing Covid-19 illness was 93.2% (95% confidence interval [CI], 91.0 to 94.8), with 55 confirmed cases in the mRNA-1273 group (9.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 7.2 to 12.5) and 744 in the placebo group (136.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 127.0 to 146.8). The efficacy in preventing severe disease was 98.2% (95% CI, 92.8 to 99.6), with 2 cases in the mRNA-1273 group and 106 in the placebo group,

I was looking at the intent to treat analysis ment...

I'm not disputing the short lived (3-6 month, progressively shorter with each booster) antibody protection of the jab, but eventually they will get sick and far worse, and many die from the side effects or ADE. You could also prevent 100% of severe covid or covid deaths by fatally shooting the treatment population right away at the start of the study. But that would result in a far worse death rate, 100%. In this study they did at best no harm, 16 vs 16. Vaccines used to be evaluated by how many deaths/cripplings they prevent, but they switched it for bigger pharma profits. Many vaccines on the market these days have a negative risk/benefit profile (MMR, gardasil, possibly flu, hep B, chickenpox as well) and should be pulled. And mrna covid jabs are among the worst offenders.

OK. Honestly I dont see this really going anywhere, because we dont agree on even basic facts. Mell reads the same paper as I do and where I read 106 vs 2, he reads 6 vs 1. WE cant even agree how to interpret the exact same information. I will show Mell a chart of total mortality in USA from 2018 to now, mell will say "I cant see the bars above the line from may 2020 to may 2021" and richwicks will say 'there was no pandemic at all because I didnt see the corpses and you cant listen to studies'.

As near as I can tell, the prevailing view of the community here is that Trump won the election, covid doesnt kill people, and only vaccines kill people. And I dont agree with any of those statements.

So, this isnt really coming down to a discussion about "What vision do we each have for America, or what are the pros/cons of different policies etc" its just coming down to "I'll only accept facts an information from my side because I dont trust the sources where your information comes from"

So, Patrick, where do we go from here?

I wanted an argument, but all im getting is contradiction! :-)

DeficitHawk says

They have to do that because the Clintons killed some of the subjects.

That makes sense.

DeficitHawk says

OK. Honestly I dont see this really going anywhere, because we dont agree on even basic facts. Mell reads the same paper as I do and where I read 106 vs 2, he reads 6 vs 1. WE cant even agree how to interpret the exact same information. I will show Mell a chart of total mortality in USA from 2018 to now, mell will say "I cant see the bars above the line from may 2020 to may 2021" and richwicks will say 'there was no pandemic at all because I didnt see the corpses and you cant listen to studies'.

As near as I can tell, the prevailing view of the community here is that Trump won the election, covid doesnt kill people, and only vaccines kill people. And I dont agree with any of those statements.

So, this isnt really coming down to a discussion about "What vision do we each have for America, or what are the pros/cons of different policies etc" its just coming down to "I'll only accept facts an information from my side because I dont trust the sources where y...

I explained to you the 6 vs 1 was the intent-to-treat analysis at the end, which is considered a gold standard. But you were right about the 106 vs 2 in the total protocol population. And then I quoted from the same study the only thing that really matters: 16 deaths on each side at the time of unblinding. What does that tell you?

DeficitHawk says

OK. Honestly I dont see this really going anywhere, because we dont agree on even basic facts.

Look, you just brought up January 6th and the "violence" there. Who was killed in that?

More than 40 people were murdered by Antifa and BLM during 9 months of "protests". Name ONE person that was arrested for that. They burned down city blocks, they destroyed police precincts. The destruction in Kenosha only ended when Kyle Rittenhouse shot 3 people and then he was prosecuted for it, and the FIB with-held evidence that would exonerate him after the media led the entire country to believe he shot 3 innocent black men, when he shot 3 criminals, one was a child rapist - what was HE doing out of jail?

Just explain the duplicity. Show you can apply principles and just don't regurgitate propaganda mindlessly.

Did you forget about the violence when Trump was elected? Cars were burned and there were riots in DC, NOBODY went to jail for that. There's around 800 people in prison without bail for protesting what they believed, and probably was, a stolen election. Even if it wasn't a stolen election, what did they do? Enter the capital after the police invited them in?

DeficitHawk says

I wanted an argument, but all im getting is contradiction! :-)

Try to have a discussion, and don't try to make spiffy references to ancient Monty Python skits.

DeficitHawk says

I think I laid out my opinions on mandates above.. I think it has to be decided case by case as a function of the impact of the underlying disease itself, and the efficacy and safety of the virus. I dont think covid should have vaccine mandates for school or work, but I understand why some people do. You disagree and think there should be no mandates no matter what. That's ok, you are entitled your opinion, and we dont have to agree. BUT I also think this is a matter for elected officials to decide, and they will decide in a way that represents the majority opinion. Our recourse if we disagree with them is to vote them out and replace them. You want to hang those elected officials. That's where I'd say you are not entitled to advocate that course of action. Thats not right. I think you are advocating political violence with that sort of statement.

Every rational human being must draw the line at bodily integrity. I'm very happy to vote and let elected officials decide things which do not violate fundamental human rights, like the right of masses of healthy people not to suffer punishment for refusing experimental injections.

Though not in the US Constitution (yet), the US-run Nuremberg trials correctly concluded that subjecting people to medical experiments against their will is a hanging offense.

It should become part of the US Constitution, but until then, it is everyone's right, and indeed obligation, to respond to attempted forced injections with gunfire at the very least. When they come at you with needles, they must receive a reply of lead.

I suppose one could argue that forced injections violates all three of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Forced injections mean that you may die, your freedom to work and get educated is limited, and you are not able to purse happiness while defending yourself from aggressive people with needles.

If you argue that I am not entitled to defend my fundamental human rights, then you yourself have given up on human rights.

Remember that the US Declaration of Independence itself was the beginning of violence with the goal of maintaining those human rights.

DeficitHawk says

As near as I can tell, the prevailing view of the community here is that Trump won the election, covid doesnt kill people, and only vaccines kill people. And I dont agree with any of those statements.

There was massive cheating in the 2020 election. Covid-19 was a virus engineered in Wuhan and was designed to kill; turned out to be kind of a dud if you don't count all the old people they wouldn't treat with safe and effective methods. The vaccines have already killed many people and we are currently experiencing fatalities from a new syndrome called SADS which many here on this forum think is caused by the jab.

DeficitHawk says

I wanted an argument, but all im getting is contradiction! :-)

I appreciate you bringing data. there are a lot of very anal ytical people here who have looked at the data and have come up with different conclusions.

DeficitHawk says

1) The impact of the disease itself: I think there is an actual disease that is real and was killing people per the CDC chart I showed above. Other people think there is no disease, or the disease does not really kill people or that the death rate of the disease is much lower than implied by the CDC chart. Thats a basic fact that we are not aligned on.

I think there was an actual disease deliberately created by Fauci's funding of Daszak in Wuhan, and that that disease was about as deadly as the seasonal flu. The seasonal flu normally kills about 0.1% of those who catch it, primarily those on the edge of death to begin with, such as the elderly and those with severe immune dysfunction.

Even during the worst of the pandemic, the official rate of death was 0.3%. Lately, studies by Ioannidis at Stanford concluded that the virus invented by Daszak was actually no worse than the seasonal flu, so about a 0.1% death rate.

DeficitHawk says

2)The efficacy of the vaccine. It think it helps reduce death rate by a lot and infection rate by a little per double blind studies done, but its efficacy is lower on mutation variants and the mutation rate is fairly high, so the efficacy will go down with time or need constant updates like flu shots. Other people think the vaccine has virtually no benefit at all.

I doubt the efficacy of the vaccine, and could dig up posts by Berenson and similar people which claim it did not reduce the death rate at all.

But that's not my primary concern. My primary concern is defending fundamental human rights against corrupt corporations like Pfizer, their minions in government, and the masses of Democrats who instantly abandoned their former values when subject to a fear campaign. The right not to be subject to a forced injection trumps all other considerations. I've already said that I think the "train track" thought experiment is invalid, and that no innocent human life may be sacrificed under any circumstances whatsoever.

https://tobyrogers.substack.com/p/thinking-points-september-21-2022

It’s like Pharma just backed a truck up to the Progressive Values Factory; stole everything; modified core values in order to maim people, make money, and implement global totalitarianism; and the left is just out there smoking a cigarette on the loading dock saying, “Sounds good to me.” What!? What the heck happened to the left? Is there no one remaining in that tribe who is capable of logic and reason!? Quite literally the worst industry in the world stole the left’s most cherished values and no one on the left is the slightest bit offended by this (even though they are offended by everything else)!? We live in the bizarro upside down world.

I also think that viruses naturally become more benign over time because it's just not a good evolutionary strategy to kill the host. So I do think that the alpha version of the virus created in Wuhan was the most dangerous, delta less so, and omicron literally no more dangerous than the common cold. I think there are actually other variants since then with even less danger than the common cold.

But patrick, one of the worst recent flu season is jan 2018. Its right there on the left side of this chart. If you are saying its same as flu, why did all these extra people die in may 2020-may 2021?

Whatever was going on in that period of time was WORSE than the the worst recent flu season by multiples. IF it wasnt Covid that did that, what was it?

richwicks says

and don't try to make spiffy references to ancient Monty Python skits

Wait, Is there a rule on this forum against monty python references? If so, im out.

DeficitHawk says

3) The side effects: I think the vaccine is new and a novel type, and people are reasonable to view it as unproven and without a long track record of use. I think the actual documented side effects are much lower than the actual documented benefits. Other people think the side effects are high rates of death and giving the vaccine is akin to murdering someone.

I think the known side effects, such as myocarditis, are significantly more dangerous than the virus itself, and that there are also as yet unknown side effects which may well be worse than those of Thalidomide. Remember that it took years for Thalidomide to be recalled, with the result that many people are still walking around with flipper arms.

I think that there is a massive yet uncoordinated effort to suppress reports of the side effects and have personally heard from a woman I know who got myocarditis after the vaxx that she was told, yes, she has myocarditis after taking the vaxx, but no, they will not report it to VAERS because they can't prove that that was the cause. It's just about a confluence of economic interests which value their money more than they value your life.

Consider the new law in California which makes it illegal for any doctor to admit that the vaxx causes myocarditis, and the massive amount of money that doctors spend on their education. I hope you can see the immorality in this law.

My wife doubted that anything created by Pfizer and approved, even if only for "emergency use" by the FDA could possibly be dangerous, and was going to get the vaxx at her employer (NASA at the time). Then her co-worker Danielle Carmichael, healthy and 34, just dropped dead shortly after the introduction of that vaxx campaign.

https://www.altamesafuneralhome.com/obituary/danielle-carmichael

We can't prove that Danielle died from the vaxx, but my wife is absolutely certain of it. Since then, we have heard of several other suspicious sudden deaths in people we know indirectly. And since starting a thread for sudden deaths and maimings, I have seen a lot of evidence of other deaths like Danielle's:

https://patrick.net/post/1340336/2021-07-29-thread-for-vax-deaths-maimings-and

The Swine Flu vaccine was withdrawn after something like a dozen suspicious deaths. How is the vaxx still being used after many thousands?

@DeficitHawk

DeficitHawk says

Whatever was going on in that period of time was WORSE than the the worst recent flu season by multiples. IF it wasnt Covid that did that, what was it?

That's when certain governors sent infected people to nursing homes. They also denied treatment until patients were beyond help. They then developed protocols to kill any survivors.

You do acknowledge the fact that 75% plus of all Wuhan deaths were among people over 65, don'tcha?

DeficitHawk says

But patrick, one of the worst recent flu season is jan 2018. Its right there on the left side of this chart. If you are saying its same as flu, why did all these extra people die in may 2020-may 2021?

Whatever was going on in that period of time was WORSE than the the worst recent flu season by multiples. IF it wasnt Covid that did that, what was it?

@DeficitHawk Flus with similar death rates the have happened every 5 or 10 years forever. I've read many stories of ERs and ICUs being overwhelmed when a new flu variant comes along. But still, they are not deadly to the general population and no excuse for suspending civil liberties and mandating injections.

I think you could find similar graphs for many previous years.

Also, as I've said many times, there was an epically HUGE financial motive to exaggerate the deaths from this particular bug, and the exaggeration was done in multiple ways, such as counting gunshot deaths as virus deaths:

https://patrick.net/post/1347601/2022-09-28-deaths-from-wuhan-virus-continue-to-be

The creation of incentives to kill patients in the hospital with ventilators and Remdesivir was another way that the numbers in your graph were boosted for the profits of Pfizer.

cisTits says

I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.

You're being strung along.

I believe that DeficitHawk is debating in good faith, and I compliment him for that.

Onvacation says

certain governors sent infected people to nursing homes. They also denied treatment until patients were beyond help. They then developed protocols to kill any survivors.

Right, more ways to kill people to boost numbers and therefore vaxx profits.

The withholding and indeed official disparagement of HCQ and ivermectin are inexcusable. They are extremely safe drugs to begin with, and yet the FDA, for example, ran a campaign calling ivermectin "horse dewormer", ignoring the fact that its first use was for humans and the guy who discovered it got the Nobel Prize for its use in humans.

OK, you don't have to believe that DeficitHawk is sincere.

But his text and tone strike me as sincere.

Patrick, I think we are probably closer aligned than we thought.

It really comes down to just one difference.

While I agree with you that no one should be strapped down and forced to get an injection they dont want, I DO believe that there is room in society for injections as a condition of entry into certain employers/schools and locations where communicable disease may be likely to transmit. Such as MMR shots for school kids to attend a school. (and if polio and smallpox were still prevalent, those too.) I think there is room for this and it should be decided based on severity of the illness and efficacy and safety of the vaccine, with decisions made by elected officials/lawmakers who can be voted out if we want change. You dont think there is room in society for this and think people who do it should be hung or shot. I have criticized your position as promoting political violence, and I think we would still have polio endemic in this country if we adopted your position.

Everything else is just shades of grey in our interpretation of the data on vaccine efficacy and death rates, but those are inconsequential to the key difference between us.

cisTits says

I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.

You're being strung along.

I tend to agree with this point of view. No one has to be a scientist, doctor or politician to understand and see what's in front of their face if we're talking Covid. It's not even an argument. It's flat out lying. People that die of Covid were borderline dead already. This is 1,000% fact.

I've yet to read, hear, see a documented case of a healthy human dying from covid. I don't even know anyone that's died from the flu in my life. It's incredibly rare. Yet we fucked up the world for years, probably a decade because of a flu.