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You can no longer trust "studies".
richwicks says
You can no longer trust "studies".
Oh ok. I think maybe this is the sentiment that is causing dispute.. not different conclusions from the same study...
Well, I think I will stop spending time trying to find data for you all if you arent going to believe it anyway.
mell says
noted 6 (!) severe covid infections in the placebo group.vs 1 in the mrna
Not sure we read the same report: I see 2 in the mrna group and 106 in placebo group.
Vaccine efficacy in preventing Covid-19 illness was 93.2% (95% confidence interval [CI], 91.0 to 94.8), with 55 confirmed cases in the mRNA-1273 group (9.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 7.2 to 12.5) and 744 in the placebo group (136.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 127.0 to 146.8). The efficacy in preventing severe disease was 98.2% (95% CI, 92.8 to 99.6), with 2 cases in the mRNA-1273 group and 106 in the placebo group,
This was Trump and Trump supporters.
Id say you dont get to claim Trump did a peaceful handoff because of how he manipulated a crowd to violence on Jan 6.
DeficitHawk says
mell says
noted 6 (!) severe covid infections in the placebo group.vs 1 in the mrna
Not sure we read the same report: I see 2 in the mrna group and 106 in placebo group.
Vaccine efficacy in preventing Covid-19 illness was 93.2% (95% confidence interval [CI], 91.0 to 94.8), with 55 confirmed cases in the mRNA-1273 group (9.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 7.2 to 12.5) and 744 in the placebo group (136.6 per 1000 person-years; 95% CI, 127.0 to 146.8). The efficacy in preventing severe disease was 98.2% (95% CI, 92.8 to 99.6), with 2 cases in the mRNA-1273 group and 106 in the placebo group,
I was looking at the intent to treat analysis ment...
They have to do that because the Clintons killed some of the subjects.
OK. Honestly I dont see this really going anywhere, because we dont agree on even basic facts. Mell reads the same paper as I do and where I read 106 vs 2, he reads 6 vs 1. WE cant even agree how to interpret the exact same information. I will show Mell a chart of total mortality in USA from 2018 to now, mell will say "I cant see the bars above the line from may 2020 to may 2021" and richwicks will say 'there was no pandemic at all because I didnt see the corpses and you cant listen to studies'.
As near as I can tell, the prevailing view of the community here is that Trump won the election, covid doesnt kill people, and only vaccines kill people. And I dont agree with any of those statements.
So, this isnt really coming down to a discussion about "What vision do we each have for America, or what are the pros/cons of different policies etc" its just coming down to "I'll only accept facts an information from my side because I dont trust the sources where y...
OK. Honestly I dont see this really going anywhere, because we dont agree on even basic facts.
I wanted an argument, but all im getting is contradiction! :-)
I think I laid out my opinions on mandates above.. I think it has to be decided case by case as a function of the impact of the underlying disease itself, and the efficacy and safety of the virus. I dont think covid should have vaccine mandates for school or work, but I understand why some people do. You disagree and think there should be no mandates no matter what. That's ok, you are entitled your opinion, and we dont have to agree. BUT I also think this is a matter for elected officials to decide, and they will decide in a way that represents the majority opinion. Our recourse if we disagree with them is to vote them out and replace them. You want to hang those elected officials. That's where I'd say you are not entitled to advocate that course of action. Thats not right. I think you are advocating political violence with that sort of statement.
As near as I can tell, the prevailing view of the community here is that Trump won the election, covid doesnt kill people, and only vaccines kill people. And I dont agree with any of those statements.
I wanted an argument, but all im getting is contradiction! :-)
1) The impact of the disease itself: I think there is an actual disease that is real and was killing people per the CDC chart I showed above. Other people think there is no disease, or the disease does not really kill people or that the death rate of the disease is much lower than implied by the CDC chart. Thats a basic fact that we are not aligned on.
2)The efficacy of the vaccine. It think it helps reduce death rate by a lot and infection rate by a little per double blind studies done, but its efficacy is lower on mutation variants and the mutation rate is fairly high, so the efficacy will go down with time or need constant updates like flu shots. Other people think the vaccine has virtually no benefit at all.
It’s like Pharma just backed a truck up to the Progressive Values Factory; stole everything; modified core values in order to maim people, make money, and implement global totalitarianism; and the left is just out there smoking a cigarette on the loading dock saying, “Sounds good to me.” What!? What the heck happened to the left? Is there no one remaining in that tribe who is capable of logic and reason!? Quite literally the worst industry in the world stole the left’s most cherished values and no one on the left is the slightest bit offended by this (even though they are offended by everything else)!? We live in the bizarro upside down world.
and don't try to make spiffy references to ancient Monty Python skits
3) The side effects: I think the vaccine is new and a novel type, and people are reasonable to view it as unproven and without a long track record of use. I think the actual documented side effects are much lower than the actual documented benefits. Other people think the side effects are high rates of death and giving the vaccine is akin to murdering someone.
Whatever was going on in that period of time was WORSE than the the worst recent flu season by multiples. IF it wasnt Covid that did that, what was it?
But patrick, one of the worst recent flu season is jan 2018. Its right there on the left side of this chart. If you are saying its same as flu, why did all these extra people die in may 2020-may 2021?
Whatever was going on in that period of time was WORSE than the the worst recent flu season by multiples. IF it wasnt Covid that did that, what was it?
I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.
You're being strung along.
certain governors sent infected people to nursing homes. They also denied treatment until patients were beyond help. They then developed protocols to kill any survivors.
I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.
You're being strung along.
cisTits says
I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.
You're being strung along.
I tend to agree with this point of view. No one has to be a scientist, doctor or politician to understand and see what's in front of their face if we're talking Covid. It's not even an argument. It's flat out lying. People that die of Covid were borderline dead already. This is 1,000% fact.
I've yet to read, hear, see a documented case of a healthy human dying from covid. I don't even know anyone that's died from the flu in my life. It's incredibly rare. Yet we fucked up the world for years, probably a decade because of a flu.
While I agree with you that no one should be strapped down and forced to get an injection they dont want
I DO believe that there is room in society for injections as a condition of entry into certain employers/schools and locations where communicable disease may be likely to transmit.
MMR shots for school kids to attend a school.
decisions made by elected officials/lawmakers who can be voted out if we want change
think people who do it should be hung or shot
I think we would still have polio endemic in this country if we adopted your position.
The fact is that today, there is no constitutional protection in the bill of rights saying you cant have vaccines as a requirement to go to school (or work). And vaccines in schools has been the standard for many years. DPT, MMR, theres a few others we all got when we were kids. used to be polio but not anymore since it has been nearly eradicated.
OK. Honestly I dont see this really going anywhere, because we dont agree on even basic facts.
With data analytics and all the resources available to big tech and big media have we reached the day and age where the powers that be can steal an election not just by stuffing ballot boxes but by simply manipulating people to vote in a predetermined fashion? That is perhaps where we are today. In the big cities where analytics and liberal philosophy are the most prolific and effective there is nary a conservative voice. They have succeeded in convincing a sizable minority even in traditionally red states that things like the bill of rights are antiquated and irrelevant. The slow grind of manipulating the way people think starts at birth and continues life long. Computer and phone logs, listening in on phones and smart devices etc.. has given them access to understand and manipulate people in ways they don’t even perceive or understand themselves.
A few break free from the matrix but they tend to get wrapped up in the diversions and lunacy of Alex Jones and ot...
And vaccines in schools has been the standard for many years. DPT, MMR, theres a few others we all got when we were kids. used to be polio but not anymore since it has been nearly eradicated.
That is what I said in another thread. Big data and big media have successfully created an alternate reality where in conservatives are liars who believe lies and only liberal Democrats have a true narrative.
Liberals live in an alternate reality wherein it is not tolerated to consider any information that does not fit the narrative.
I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines
I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines. THIS vaccine doesn't work. There is not enough data on it, but enough to show it doesn't work. Vaccines take years to develop. Sometimes a decade. At least for it to be safe and no side effects. THIS vaccine has known side effects that I've witnessed more than people dropping dead from Covid.
WookieMan says
I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines
Patrick himself is. Or rather anti MANDATING any vaccine as condition of entry to schools or employers. That's who I am addressing with those responses.
WookieMan says
I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines
Patrick himself is. Or rather anti MANDATING any vaccine as condition of entry to schools or employers. That's who I am addressing with those responses.
It's as if the entire world were forced to take a new kind of very profitable Thalidomide to just see what happens, and to make money for Pfizer.
What I can't understand is how you could possibly think this is OK in any universe.
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By polite, I mean refraining from attacking the person in either direction, but sticking to points of argument instead. So no "You are a (whatever)" will not be allowed. The only appropriate use of "you" will be "Here you said..."
I just ran into an old guy in a cafe who pointed in the newspaper to the governor results in California, which added up to 110%. I said, "well, that's California" and so he accused me of being an "election denier". I asked if he'd seen "2000 Mules" and he said he hadn't "because it's been debunked". Uh, it's the same people who committed the election fraud who are claiming that "2000 Mules" was debunked.
Nor had he heard what was on Hunter's laptop, since he watches only corporate news.
I think I might have made a dent in his wall of denial, and I'd like to try with others.