patrick.net

DeficitHawk says

Whatever was going on in that period of time was WORSE than the the worst recent flu season by multiples. IF it wasnt Covid that did that, what was it?

That's when certain governors sent infected people to nursing homes. They also denied treatment until patients were beyond help. They then developed protocols to kill any survivors.

You do acknowledge the fact that 75% plus of all Wuhan deaths were among people over 65, don'tcha?

DeficitHawk says

But patrick, one of the worst recent flu season is jan 2018. Its right there on the left side of this chart. If you are saying its same as flu, why did all these extra people die in may 2020-may 2021?

Whatever was going on in that period of time was WORSE than the the worst recent flu season by multiples. IF it wasnt Covid that did that, what was it?

@DeficitHawk Flus with similar death rates the have happened every 5 or 10 years forever. I've read many stories of ERs and ICUs being overwhelmed when a new flu variant comes along. But still, they are not deadly to the general population and no excuse for suspending civil liberties and mandating injections.

I think you could find similar graphs for many previous years.

Also, as I've said many times, there was an epically HUGE financial motive to exaggerate the deaths from this particular bug, and the exaggeration was done in multiple ways, such as counting gunshot deaths as virus deaths:

https://patrick.net/post/1347601/2022-09-28-deaths-from-wuhan-virus-continue-to-be

The creation of incentives to kill patients in the hospital with ventilators and Remdesivir was another way that the numbers in your graph were boosted for the profits of Pfizer.

cisTits says

I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.

You're being strung along.

I believe that DeficitHawk is debating in good faith, and I compliment him for that.

Onvacation says

certain governors sent infected people to nursing homes. They also denied treatment until patients were beyond help. They then developed protocols to kill any survivors.

Right, more ways to kill people to boost numbers and therefore vaxx profits.

The withholding and indeed official disparagement of HCQ and ivermectin are inexcusable. They are extremely safe drugs to begin with, and yet the FDA, for example, ran a campaign calling ivermectin "horse dewormer", ignoring the fact that its first use was for humans and the guy who discovered it got the Nobel Prize for its use in humans.

OK, you don't have to believe that DeficitHawk is sincere.

But his text and tone strike me as sincere.

Patrick, I think we are probably closer aligned than we thought.

It really comes down to just one difference.

While I agree with you that no one should be strapped down and forced to get an injection they dont want, I DO believe that there is room in society for injections as a condition of entry into certain employers/schools and locations where communicable disease may be likely to transmit. Such as MMR shots for school kids to attend a school. (and if polio and smallpox were still prevalent, those too.) I think there is room for this and it should be decided based on severity of the illness and efficacy and safety of the vaccine, with decisions made by elected officials/lawmakers who can be voted out if we want change. You dont think there is room in society for this and think people who do it should be hung or shot. I have criticized your position as promoting political violence, and I think we would still have polio endemic in this country if we adopted your position.

Everything else is just shades of grey in our interpretation of the data on vaccine efficacy and death rates, but those are inconsequential to the key difference between us.

cisTits says

I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.

You're being strung along.

I tend to agree with this point of view. No one has to be a scientist, doctor or politician to understand and see what's in front of their face if we're talking Covid. It's not even an argument. It's flat out lying. People that die of Covid were borderline dead already. This is 1,000% fact.

I've yet to read, hear, see a documented case of a healthy human dying from covid. I don't even know anyone that's died from the flu in my life. It's incredibly rare. Yet we fucked up the world for years, probably a decade because of a flu.

WookieMan says

cisTits says

I am laughing so hard at those of you who think you actually are debating this guy.

You're being strung along.

I tend to agree with this point of view. No one has to be a scientist, doctor or politician to understand and see what's in front of their face if we're talking Covid. It's not even an argument. It's flat out lying. People that die of Covid were borderline dead already. This is 1,000% fact.

I've yet to read, hear, see a documented case of a healthy human dying from covid. I don't even know anyone that's died from the flu in my life. It's incredibly rare. Yet we fucked up the world for years, probably a decade because of a flu.

Agreed, also the key questions are never answered, such as, if a study has 16 dead at each treatment and control arm (with ~ same number of participants in each arm) after unblinding, what does it tell you?

DeficitHawk says

While I agree with you that no one should be strapped down and forced to get an injection they dont want

Thanks.

I actually bought a gun when it looked like Pfizer had convinced the government to go to go door to door and physically force the experimental injection. I would have shot back at anyone attempting to physically force an injection on me, and I think everyone should do the same. I was inspired by a video of an old black man who said the same thing, remembering what happened at Tuskegee.

DeficitHawk says

I DO believe that there is room in society for injections as a condition of entry into certain employers/schools and locations where communicable disease may be likely to transmit.

We strongly disagree on that, though at one point I would have agreed with you. My thinking changed when this nightmare started. I had not realized that the CDC, FDA, and NIH are so completely captured by Pfizer that it is suicidal to ever trust them again.

DeficitHawk says

MMR shots for school kids to attend a school.

I'm strongly opposed to it's being a requirement, instead preferring for parents to be able to make their own decisions about their children without punishment for disagreeing with now obviously corrupt government agencies.

DeficitHawk says

decisions made by elected officials/lawmakers who can be voted out if we want change

I no longer believe that most public officials make decisions in the public interest at all. Nor do I believe they can be voted out in most cases. The worst ones are not even elected, like Pfauci.

https://patrick.net/post/1347637/2022-10-02-dc-s-corrupted-legislative-process

DeficitHawk says

think people who do it should be hung or shot

Yes, as concluded at the Nuremberg trials.

DeficitHawk says

I think we would still have polio endemic in this country if we adopted your position.

I don't think so. I think if people were given the free choice of whether to take any injection and could have faith in our government institutions, they would choose safe vaccines in the long run, as the data came out.

The problems are in eliminating freedom to choose and in the spectacular demonstration of incompetence and corruption in the government.

Patrick, on the one hand, I want to say "agree to disagree" on this.

But there is one thing that I cant agree to disagree. and that is the hanging and shooting.

The fact is that today, there is no constitutional protection in the bill of rights saying you cant have vaccines as a requirement to go to school (or work). And vaccines in schools has been the standard for many years. DPT, MMR, theres a few others we all got when we were kids. used to be polio but not anymore since it has been nearly eradicated.

So, since school vaccine requirements have been the norm for a long time, and there is no constitutional prohibition, and elected officials have been setting those requirements for a long time, I just cant abide that you would advocate violence against those people. Our recourse here is voting, not violence. If you have lost faith that you can vote people out of office, maybe you should accept that it is because you have an extreme position that most people don't agree with, and not advocate violence just because you cant win at the ballot box. If you have extreme positions that most people dont agree with, you may have to accept some inconveniences to allow you to do things how you want... you may need to move to a particular school district or use a special private school that doesnt have such requirements.

Thats my beef with your position. Everything else I am prepared to say 'agree to disagree' and allow different opinions to coexist.

DeficitHawk says

The fact is that today, there is no constitutional protection in the bill of rights saying you cant have vaccines as a requirement to go to school (or work). And vaccines in schools has been the standard for many years. DPT, MMR, theres a few others we all got when we were kids. used to be polio but not anymore since it has been nearly eradicated.

There are opt outs for vaccines in most states, and thus, de facto the country.

Cali, New York, and WV are exceptions to vaccine opt outs on religious grounds, which are near universal. In fact Commiefornia is the lone state that disallows vaccine exemptions under any circumstances, except narrow medical ones that require repeated renewal and doctor's testimony.

It's clear the mRNA experimental therapy was minimally effective at best, and public health officials must apologize publicly or be fired and put on a blacklist from future federal employment OR grants (ie any program that hires them will lose their federal money).

It's one thing to be an bossy asshole who is right, another thing to be a bossy asshole who turned out to be wrong, when holding a position of public trust.

And then there's masking, which Fauci himself wrote an email in February 2020 saying it was ineffective against Respiratory Viruses - and all studies on masking against respiratory viruses show little to no and sometimes adverse effect. That one was complete security theater that must be punished: the 'experts' knew it was ineffective but did it for power/political purposes.

DeficitHawk says

OK. Honestly I dont see this really going anywhere, because we dont agree on even basic facts.

That is what I said in another thread. Big data and big media have successfully created an alternate reality where in conservatives are liars who believe lies and only liberal Democrats have a true narrative.

Liberals live in an alternate reality wherein it is not tolerated to consider any information that does not fit the narrative.

In reality there was more fraud in the 2020 election than ever before. So they create an alternate narrative so people don’t realize how giant the fraud is we have government experts tell the pleasing lie that 2020 was the most secure election ever. (Never mind the mules, never mind the dead people voting, never mind the thousands of votes found in the dead of night, never mind the mail in ballots, never mind the fact that Biden didn’t even campaign like he was running for office let alone the presidency, never mind the FBI telling facebook, Twitter and big media not to publish the Hunter Biden laptop evidence that incriminates the Biden family)

PeopleUnited says

With data analytics and all the resources available to big tech and big media have we reached the day and age where the powers that be can steal an election not just by stuffing ballot boxes but by simply manipulating people to vote in a predetermined fashion? That is perhaps where we are today. In the big cities where analytics and liberal philosophy are the most prolific and effective there is nary a conservative voice. They have succeeded in convincing a sizable minority even in traditionally red states that things like the bill of rights are antiquated and irrelevant. The slow grind of manipulating the way people think starts at birth and continues life long. Computer and phone logs, listening in on phones and smart devices etc.. has given them access to understand and manipulate people in ways they don’t even perceive or understand themselves.

A few break free from the matrix but they tend to get wrapped up in the diversions and lunacy of Alex Jones and ot...

DeficitHawk says

And vaccines in schools has been the standard for many years. DPT, MMR, theres a few others we all got when we were kids. used to be polio but not anymore since it has been nearly eradicated.

Besides a flu shot or Covid jab, I've taken all vaccines that were suggested. I think you're missing the point. I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines. THIS vaccine doesn't work. There is not enough data on it, but enough to show it doesn't work. Vaccines take years to develop. Sometimes a decade. At least for it to be safe and no side effects. THIS vaccine has known side effects that I've witnessed more than people dropping dead from Covid.

And be honest about your coworker that supposedly died. Were they fat? Old? Diabetic? Lupus? Closet alcoholic? Pill popper? Just because you know someone that died, doesn't mean Covid caused it. You'd be surprised about the secrets and lifestyles people have...

It is fact though the same guy that fucked up the AIDS response is/was lead on Covid response. Flip flopped like a fish out of water. If you can't agree to agree on that, than I don't think your intentions are honest to have a conversation with regards to Covid at least. 15 day to stop the spread??? The fuck. I don't need to go to Harvard or some Ivy league school to realize how dumb that is for an airborne virus.

PeopleUnited says

That is what I said in another thread. Big data and big media have successfully created an alternate reality where in conservatives are liars who believe lies and only liberal Democrats have a true narrative.

Liberals live in an alternate reality wherein it is not tolerated to consider any information that does not fit the narrative.

It may be constructive for us to talk about where we get our information, and how we vet it. We may not agree who's realty is the alternate one.

I tend to get my information from online print sources. Reuters is usually my first stop news webpage. And then search up more deep dive information using google. Such as those double blind vaccine studies. I dont regularly watch TV news. US TV news networks I think have become echo chambers like this forum, with FOX echoing the right and CNN the left. I think its a fundamental problem with 24 hour news.... theres only 30 minutes of news, so what do you do with the rest of the day? Commentary.... and then the viewership sorts itself into groups based on which commentary pleases their ears according to their worldview.

WookieMan says

I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines

Patrick himself is. Or rather anti MANDATING any vaccine as condition of entry to schools or employers. That's who I am addressing with those responses.

WookieMan says

I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines. THIS vaccine doesn't work. There is not enough data on it, but enough to show it doesn't work. Vaccines take years to develop. Sometimes a decade. At least for it to be safe and no side effects. THIS vaccine has known side effects that I've witnessed more than people dropping dead from Covid.

@DeficitHawk

I'm not talking about lynch mobs. I think there should be military tribunals for those who forced the unknown effects of THIS vaxx on billions of people, the same way the Nuremberg trials were run. The Nazis were not violating Nazi laws (well, maybe they were). The point is that they were violating fundamental human rights on a mass scale.

As for shooting, I'm just saying that the 2nd Amendment exists precisely in order to stop the government from doing this kind of thing to innocent citizens.

It's as if the entire world were forced to take a new kind of very profitable Thalidomide to just see what happens, and to make money for Pfizer.

What I can't understand is how you could possibly think this is OK in any universe.

DeficitHawk says

WookieMan says

I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines

Patrick himself is. Or rather anti MANDATING any vaccine as condition of entry to schools or employers. That's who I am addressing with those responses.

Okay, so you're okay being forced to do something that you have no clue the end result? That's what you're saying. I'm okay with mandating the polio vaccine. It has been proven. ALL Covid vaccines literally don't work. It should not be a requirement of employment or getting an education. That's full retard thinking. And I know Patrick asked to be polite, but at some point lying or not looking at facts matters.

I liked Trump. He fucked this up. It's okay to own up when you have a wrong opinion or knowledge. THIS vaccine is shit. Prove otherwise. No one here is claiming small pox or polio vaccine don't work. It's fact you actually DON'T have to take them for a job or to go to school. Covid mandates are a new thing. Take the blinders off buddy.

DeficitHawk says

WookieMan says

I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines

Patrick himself is. Or rather anti MANDATING any vaccine as condition of entry to schools or employers. That's who I am addressing with those responses.

Right, after this Nazi-level nightmare, I'm strongly opposed to all vaccine MANDATES. I had not really thought about the human rights aspect of mandated injections until the problem was forced on us all.

What is truly shocking is how willing the majority of people are to trust an obviously incompetent (Biden) and corrupt (Fauci) government with their lives at the drop of a hat. "BE AFRAID" says the government. "Where are the cattle cars for us to get on so that you can take us to the safe concentration camps?" say those people in response, all in unison.

It's seriously the creepiest thing I ever saw in my life, by an order of magnitude.

If you want to know how anyone would have behaved in Nazi times, now you know. People you thought were rational would have pushed you onto the cattle car and then gotten on themselves, blindly trusting that those "showers" were actually showers and not gas chambers.

https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/apology-games

Patrick says

It's as if the entire world were forced to take a new kind of very profitable Thalidomide to just see what happens, and to make money for Pfizer.

What I can't understand is how you could possibly think this is OK in any universe.

Well, we've already established that both you and I didnt want COVID vaccine mandates, for similar reasons. Where we differ is in how we respond to the fact that we were overruled by the officials who made those decisions. You want to hang them because you think it was outside of their authority and a crime against humanity. I disagree, because I think vaccine mandates ARE within their authority, and its a judgement call on a case by case basis based severity/efficacy/safety.... so while I disagree with the call they made, I dont think its a crime and I dont think there should be tribunals.

I do not agree with your narrative that the whole thing was cooked up to sell pfizer vaccines. (actually I got the J&J one which was not mrna type.. those were available too). I think people wanted a vaccine to help reduce very real death rates that people were really scared by. And when the vaccines became available, the same authorities who decide about Measles/Mumps/Rubella had yet another decision to make, and they made their decision. Maybe I would have decided differently, but there you have it. Its not a nooses and pitchforks kind of thing. Its not a tribunals kind of thing. Its a voting thing if you care about it, and a non-issue if you dont.

In most cases there was some (somewhat inconvenient) opt out. My work had no mandate, and had options for people who didnt vaccinate or didnt want to reveal status, but they had some work from home and additional isolation requirements for non-status-disclosed people. Its not like some stormtroopers came and forced everyone to get a shot.

I agree with the 2nd amendment being the ultimate backdrop for tyrannical government. But this is not tyranny. We just have a minority opinion on this matter and got overruled by the majority. IF we resort to armed rebellion every time we lose a popular vote, or elected official makes a decision we dont like, then there would be lots of war and its not a situation I'd want to live in.

Patrick says

Right, after this Nazi-level nightmare, I'm strongly opposed to all vaccine MANDATES. I had not really thought about the human rights aspect of mandated injections until the problem was forced on us all.

There are no mandates besides Covid. This is a new thing. You've always been able to go to public school without vaccines. Never in my life have I heard of people being required to have a vaccine for employment. It's all bull shit that people are trying to normalize and lie to you.

I get illegal drug like heroin. But you cannot force me to put something in my body to work a job. If we're going down that rabbit hole I'm going to force you to pay me $2M a year and I get to kill and smoke your first born child. Let's just make shit up at this point. That's literally what is happening.

DeficitHawk says

I disagree, because I think vaccine mandates ARE within their authority

@DeficitHawk Do you see any limit at all to that authority?

Do you think those same people have the authority to, say, mandate that you take a new booster every day?

Do you see any problem with waiting years while the injections happen before attempting to vote out people who were not elected in the first place, like Fauci? Fauci may not even be able to be fired at all by the president.

DeficitHawk says

In most cases there was some (somewhat inconvenient) opt out.

I'm not sure that most cases had any option at first, and the mandates continue with no opt-out for millions in the military, among government workers, foreigners coming into the US, and now schoolchildren in California.

Patrick says

Do you see any limit at all to that authority?

The stormtroopers coming to forcibly inject me even if I already opted out of attending the school/workplace that set the vaccine-for-entry requirement. That would be the limit where I crack open my gun safe.

That did not happen, and even though YOU said there was some rumor of that, It wasn't a rumor I ever heard, or a scenario I thought was remotely likely.

We can't keep an honest democrat here because the cognitive dissonance is overwhelming. To accept the facts of what is going on would make a person not trust the news, the government, and doctors. Obeisance to authority will not allow that and the typical democrat covers their ears and goes "nananana" because the truth is too painful.

The truth is painful.

DeficitHawk says

The stormtroopers coming to forcibly inject me even if I already opted out of attending the school/workplace that set the vaccine-for-entry requirement. That would be the limit where I crack open my gun safe.

Thanks, we definitely agree there then.

So, boosters every day of a new vaxx developed in the last month and tested on, say, 8 mice and no humans wouldn't bother you?

I'm just trying to find your limits and figure out why they seem so different from mine.

DeficitHawk says

this is not tyranny.

"Take ze experimental jab or you can't work!" If that's not tyranny, what is?

DeficitHawk says

That did not happen, and even though YOU said there was some rumor of that, It wasn't a rumor I ever heard, or a scenario I thought was remotely likely.

Right before Omicron saved us Biden was screaming, "This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated!" We were weeks from being forced to carry a "vax passport" when tens of thousands of freshly boosted started coming down with the Wuhan.

Unsafe and ineffective.

Patrick says

So, boosters every day of a new vaxx developed in the last month and tested on, say, 8 mice and no humans wouldn't bother you?

8 mice and no humans would definitely have raised my concern level over safety to the point I didnt want my kids to get it.

If I had serious doubts about the safety of vaccines for my kids, my reaction would have been to resort to remote school or find a different school, and it would have gone to the top of my issues list at the election.

Still I wouldn't be advocating to shoot or hang anyone. Stormtroopers is a different thing entirely.

Onvacation says

"Take ze experimental jab or you can't work!" If that's not tyranny, what is?

My employer did not require vaccines. Although there were some additional isolation and testing requirements placed on those who did not vaccinate or chose not to reveal their vaccination status in the event of known exposures etc.

It wasnt 'take the jab or you cant work'. Maybe some places it was 'take the jab or you cant work here'. Plenty of employers did not have any such requirement. And many places having various opt out schemes involving testing/isolation.

DeficitHawk says

Still I wouldn't be advocating to shoot or hang anyone.

Why not? They killed plenty of people, kids and adolescents with the mandated clot shots. Life long prison at least.

mell says

DeficitHawk says

Still I wouldn't be advocating to shoot or hang anyone.

Why not? They killed plenty of people, kids and adolescents with the mandated clot shots. Life long prison at least.

Mell, I laid out my reasoning already above. These are elected officials acting within their authority. You dont shoot or hang people for that. You vote.

We both know we disagree on how to interpret those studies, and I do not agree with your characterization of the risk/benefit of these vaccines.

DeficitHawk says

'take the jab or you cant work here'.

I have a friend that worked at a credit union for thirty years. She was fired for not wanting to take an experimental biologic agent. I guess she can learn to code at home.

Onvacation says

I have a friend that worked at a credit union for thirty years. She was fired for not wanting to take an experimental biologic agent. I guess she can learn to code at home.

I dont dispute it. That was that was the policy some places. Every place had to make choices, and I bet they made choices that reflected the prevailing opinions of people who worked there.

Actually the school district my kids attend has an opt out provision involving routine testing.

Im in the Bay Area of California, bluest of the blue regions, and my kids have opt out if we want it.

I think the overall narrative of stormtroopers making everyone get vaccinated is frankly overdone. Its not really like that. but I do not dispute that there are some employers and probably schools that dont have an opt out, and some people got fired for refusing to vaccinate.

I guess my take on this all is that if you have a minority view on things like this, you will sometimes be forced to endure some inconvenience by the majority. It is part of democracy. You will be impacted negatively by decisions people make that you dont agree with. But that's part of living in a society, and you dont always get your way. You shouldnt resort to pitchforks, rifles, and nooses every time that happens. You can conform to the requirements even if you dont like it, you can move to where you can have your way, you can adapt with some level inconvenience... and of course you can vote to change the local leadership.

Ill say something provocative: This forum has become an echo chamber for people who have minority opinions and keep getting beat in elections, so they imagine that the world has it out for them and everyone is cheating so they cant win. They invent a conspiracy to explain every decision they dont like or dont agree with. They refuse to accept the truth that they dont win because they are the minority position in a representative democracy.

I read this forum regularly... partly because I like the funny pictures thread... partly because I like the real estate discussions... and partly because I want to maintain an understanding of the perspective of people within this echo chamber. But I have to tell you, even if 98% of people inside of this echo chamber agree with each other... this echo chamber represents a minority viewpoint of the US population at large. You might ask yourselves why the forum became such that the vast majority of people who participate here are ones to agree to a minority view... why dont others participate? Why are this cross section of people drawn to this site?

DeficitHawk says

These are elected officials acting within their authority

So were the nazis, elected officials who then started abusing emergency powers. Same playbook. Many were hanged or sent to prison for experimenting on humans.and it's actually not within their authority. There simply isn't an arbiter besides SCOTUS which usually does not enforce its decisions, but relies on the executive

DeficitHawk says

Actually the school district my kids attend has an opt out provision involving routine testing. So even schools have opt out.

Frequent testing with the swabs is dangerous and a health hazard. Plus after a few months or a few boosters the vaccinated have a higher chance of contracting covid. So again arbitrary and unconstitutional orders

DeficitHawk says

You vote.

The US currently has a banana republic style voting system, much worsened by these unconstitutional covid "emergency orders", prone to fraud, and currently there's a lot of fraud. But I agree with the general premise to change through voting, but that doesn't mean you cannot investigate after the vote and change and send people to life in prison for crimes against humanity.

WookieMan says

It is fact though the same guy that fucked up the AIDS response is/was lead on Covid response

This. Fauci in the 1980s was infamous for suggesting AIDS could be spread via shared kitchen utensils.

And yes, I'm all on board for well tested vaccines. However, COVID was never on the level of the Andromeda Strain to begin with and never deserved the level of panic and tyranny it engendered.