patrick.net

WookieMan says

I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines. THIS vaccine doesn't work. There is not enough data on it, but enough to show it doesn't work. Vaccines take years to develop. Sometimes a decade. At least for it to be safe and no side effects. THIS vaccine has known side effects that I've witnessed more than people dropping dead from Covid.

@DeficitHawk

I'm not talking about lynch mobs. I think there should be military tribunals for those who forced the unknown effects of THIS vaxx on billions of people, the same way the Nuremberg trials were run. The Nazis were not violating Nazi laws (well, maybe they were). The point is that they were violating fundamental human rights on a mass scale.

As for shooting, I'm just saying that the 2nd Amendment exists precisely in order to stop the government from doing this kind of thing to innocent citizens.

It's as if the entire world were forced to take a new kind of very profitable Thalidomide to just see what happens, and to make money for Pfizer.

What I can't understand is how you could possibly think this is OK in any universe.

DeficitHawk says

WookieMan says

I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines

Patrick himself is. Or rather anti MANDATING any vaccine as condition of entry to schools or employers. That's who I am addressing with those responses.

Okay, so you're okay being forced to do something that you have no clue the end result? That's what you're saying. I'm okay with mandating the polio vaccine. It has been proven. ALL Covid vaccines literally don't work. It should not be a requirement of employment or getting an education. That's full retard thinking. And I know Patrick asked to be polite, but at some point lying or not looking at facts matters.

I liked Trump. He fucked this up. It's okay to own up when you have a wrong opinion or knowledge. THIS vaccine is shit. Prove otherwise. No one here is claiming small pox or polio vaccine don't work. It's fact you actually DON'T have to take them for a job or to go to school. Covid mandates are a new thing. Take the blinders off buddy.

DeficitHawk says

WookieMan says

I don't think there's a user here that is anti ALL vaccines

Patrick himself is. Or rather anti MANDATING any vaccine as condition of entry to schools or employers. That's who I am addressing with those responses.

Right, after this Nazi-level nightmare, I'm strongly opposed to all vaccine MANDATES. I had not really thought about the human rights aspect of mandated injections until the problem was forced on us all.

What is truly shocking is how willing the majority of people are to trust an obviously incompetent (Biden) and corrupt (Fauci) government with their lives at the drop of a hat. "BE AFRAID" says the government. "Where are the cattle cars for us to get on so that you can take us to the safe concentration camps?" say those people in response, all in unison.

It's seriously the creepiest thing I ever saw in my life, by an order of magnitude.

If you want to know how anyone would have behaved in Nazi times, now you know. People you thought were rational would have pushed you onto the cattle car and then gotten on themselves, blindly trusting that those "showers" were actually showers and not gas chambers.

https://roundingtheearth.substack.com/p/apology-games

Patrick says

It's as if the entire world were forced to take a new kind of very profitable Thalidomide to just see what happens, and to make money for Pfizer.

What I can't understand is how you could possibly think this is OK in any universe.

Well, we've already established that both you and I didnt want COVID vaccine mandates, for similar reasons. Where we differ is in how we respond to the fact that we were overruled by the officials who made those decisions. You want to hang them because you think it was outside of their authority and a crime against humanity. I disagree, because I think vaccine mandates ARE within their authority, and its a judgement call on a case by case basis based severity/efficacy/safety.... so while I disagree with the call they made, I dont think its a crime and I dont think there should be tribunals.

I do not agree with your narrative that the whole thing was cooked up to sell pfizer vaccines. (actually I got the J&J one which was not mrna type.. those were available too). I think people wanted a vaccine to help reduce very real death rates that people were really scared by. And when the vaccines became available, the same authorities who decide about Measles/Mumps/Rubella had yet another decision to make, and they made their decision. Maybe I would have decided differently, but there you have it. Its not a nooses and pitchforks kind of thing. Its not a tribunals kind of thing. Its a voting thing if you care about it, and a non-issue if you dont.

In most cases there was some (somewhat inconvenient) opt out. My work had no mandate, and had options for people who didnt vaccinate or didnt want to reveal status, but they had some work from home and additional isolation requirements for non-status-disclosed people. Its not like some stormtroopers came and forced everyone to get a shot.

I agree with the 2nd amendment being the ultimate backdrop for tyrannical government. But this is not tyranny. We just have a minority opinion on this matter and got overruled by the majority. IF we resort to armed rebellion every time we lose a popular vote, or elected official makes a decision we dont like, then there would be lots of war and its not a situation I'd want to live in.

Patrick says

Right, after this Nazi-level nightmare, I'm strongly opposed to all vaccine MANDATES. I had not really thought about the human rights aspect of mandated injections until the problem was forced on us all.

There are no mandates besides Covid. This is a new thing. You've always been able to go to public school without vaccines. Never in my life have I heard of people being required to have a vaccine for employment. It's all bull shit that people are trying to normalize and lie to you.

I get illegal drug like heroin. But you cannot force me to put something in my body to work a job. If we're going down that rabbit hole I'm going to force you to pay me $2M a year and I get to kill and smoke your first born child. Let's just make shit up at this point. That's literally what is happening.

DeficitHawk says

I disagree, because I think vaccine mandates ARE within their authority

@DeficitHawk Do you see any limit at all to that authority?

Do you think those same people have the authority to, say, mandate that you take a new booster every day?

Do you see any problem with waiting years while the injections happen before attempting to vote out people who were not elected in the first place, like Fauci? Fauci may not even be able to be fired at all by the president.

DeficitHawk says

In most cases there was some (somewhat inconvenient) opt out.

I'm not sure that most cases had any option at first, and the mandates continue with no opt-out for millions in the military, among government workers, foreigners coming into the US, and now schoolchildren in California.

Patrick says

Do you see any limit at all to that authority?

The stormtroopers coming to forcibly inject me even if I already opted out of attending the school/workplace that set the vaccine-for-entry requirement. That would be the limit where I crack open my gun safe.

That did not happen, and even though YOU said there was some rumor of that, It wasn't a rumor I ever heard, or a scenario I thought was remotely likely.

We can't keep an honest democrat here because the cognitive dissonance is overwhelming. To accept the facts of what is going on would make a person not trust the news, the government, and doctors. Obeisance to authority will not allow that and the typical democrat covers their ears and goes "nananana" because the truth is too painful.

The truth is painful.

DeficitHawk says

The stormtroopers coming to forcibly inject me even if I already opted out of attending the school/workplace that set the vaccine-for-entry requirement. That would be the limit where I crack open my gun safe.

Thanks, we definitely agree there then.

So, boosters every day of a new vaxx developed in the last month and tested on, say, 8 mice and no humans wouldn't bother you?

I'm just trying to find your limits and figure out why they seem so different from mine.

DeficitHawk says

this is not tyranny.

"Take ze experimental jab or you can't work!" If that's not tyranny, what is?

DeficitHawk says

That did not happen, and even though YOU said there was some rumor of that, It wasn't a rumor I ever heard, or a scenario I thought was remotely likely.

Right before Omicron saved us Biden was screaming, "This is a pandemic of the unvaccinated!" We were weeks from being forced to carry a "vax passport" when tens of thousands of freshly boosted started coming down with the Wuhan.

Unsafe and ineffective.

Patrick says

So, boosters every day of a new vaxx developed in the last month and tested on, say, 8 mice and no humans wouldn't bother you?

8 mice and no humans would definitely have raised my concern level over safety to the point I didnt want my kids to get it.

If I had serious doubts about the safety of vaccines for my kids, my reaction would have been to resort to remote school or find a different school, and it would have gone to the top of my issues list at the election.

Still I wouldn't be advocating to shoot or hang anyone. Stormtroopers is a different thing entirely.

Onvacation says

"Take ze experimental jab or you can't work!" If that's not tyranny, what is?

My employer did not require vaccines. Although there were some additional isolation and testing requirements placed on those who did not vaccinate or chose not to reveal their vaccination status in the event of known exposures etc.

It wasnt 'take the jab or you cant work'. Maybe some places it was 'take the jab or you cant work here'. Plenty of employers did not have any such requirement. And many places having various opt out schemes involving testing/isolation.

DeficitHawk says

Still I wouldn't be advocating to shoot or hang anyone.

Why not? They killed plenty of people, kids and adolescents with the mandated clot shots. Life long prison at least.

mell says

DeficitHawk says

Still I wouldn't be advocating to shoot or hang anyone.

Why not? They killed plenty of people, kids and adolescents with the mandated clot shots. Life long prison at least.

Mell, I laid out my reasoning already above. These are elected officials acting within their authority. You dont shoot or hang people for that. You vote.

We both know we disagree on how to interpret those studies, and I do not agree with your characterization of the risk/benefit of these vaccines.

DeficitHawk says

'take the jab or you cant work here'.

I have a friend that worked at a credit union for thirty years. She was fired for not wanting to take an experimental biologic agent. I guess she can learn to code at home.

Onvacation says

I have a friend that worked at a credit union for thirty years. She was fired for not wanting to take an experimental biologic agent. I guess she can learn to code at home.

I dont dispute it. That was that was the policy some places. Every place had to make choices, and I bet they made choices that reflected the prevailing opinions of people who worked there.

Actually the school district my kids attend has an opt out provision involving routine testing.

Im in the Bay Area of California, bluest of the blue regions, and my kids have opt out if we want it.

I think the overall narrative of stormtroopers making everyone get vaccinated is frankly overdone. Its not really like that. but I do not dispute that there are some employers and probably schools that dont have an opt out, and some people got fired for refusing to vaccinate.

I guess my take on this all is that if you have a minority view on things like this, you will sometimes be forced to endure some inconvenience by the majority. It is part of democracy. You will be impacted negatively by decisions people make that you dont agree with. But that's part of living in a society, and you dont always get your way. You shouldnt resort to pitchforks, rifles, and nooses every time that happens. You can conform to the requirements even if you dont like it, you can move to where you can have your way, you can adapt with some level inconvenience... and of course you can vote to change the local leadership.

Ill say something provocative: This forum has become an echo chamber for people who have minority opinions and keep getting beat in elections, so they imagine that the world has it out for them and everyone is cheating so they cant win. They invent a conspiracy to explain every decision they dont like or dont agree with. They refuse to accept the truth that they dont win because they are the minority position in a representative democracy.

I read this forum regularly... partly because I like the funny pictures thread... partly because I like the real estate discussions... and partly because I want to maintain an understanding of the perspective of people within this echo chamber. But I have to tell you, even if 98% of people inside of this echo chamber agree with each other... this echo chamber represents a minority viewpoint of the US population at large. You might ask yourselves why the forum became such that the vast majority of people who participate here are ones to agree to a minority view... why dont others participate? Why are this cross section of people drawn to this site?

DeficitHawk says

These are elected officials acting within their authority

So were the nazis, elected officials who then started abusing emergency powers. Same playbook. Many were hanged or sent to prison for experimenting on humans.and it's actually not within their authority. There simply isn't an arbiter besides SCOTUS which usually does not enforce its decisions, but relies on the executive

DeficitHawk says

Actually the school district my kids attend has an opt out provision involving routine testing. So even schools have opt out.

Frequent testing with the swabs is dangerous and a health hazard. Plus after a few months or a few boosters the vaccinated have a higher chance of contracting covid. So again arbitrary and unconstitutional orders

DeficitHawk says

You vote.

The US currently has a banana republic style voting system, much worsened by these unconstitutional covid "emergency orders", prone to fraud, and currently there's a lot of fraud. But I agree with the general premise to change through voting, but that doesn't mean you cannot investigate after the vote and change and send people to life in prison for crimes against humanity.

WookieMan says

It is fact though the same guy that fucked up the AIDS response is/was lead on Covid response

This. Fauci in the 1980s was infamous for suggesting AIDS could be spread via shared kitchen utensils.

And yes, I'm all on board for well tested vaccines. However, COVID was never on the level of the Andromeda Strain to begin with and never deserved the level of panic and tyranny it engendered.

DeficitHawk says

I think the overall narrative of stormtroopers making everyone get vaccinated is frankly overdone. Its not really like that.

It's not like that at the moment, but it definitely lurched that way dramatically as Biden's inflammatory rhetoric escalated, with the "pandemic of the unvaccinated" lie and the "winter of disease and death" lie, and the truly Nazi-like labelling of dissenting people and the institution of official discrimination against them. Holocaust survivors noted the uncanny similarity of Democratic policy to early Nazi policies:

https://www.statnews.com/2016/08/18/vera-sharav/

DeficitHawk says

forced to endure some inconvenience

I think you're understating the human rights violation by several orders of magnitude.

DeficitHawk says

You will be impacted negatively by decisions people make that you dont agree with.

Your children may die from the vaccine. You don't know what will happen because there is literally no long-term safety data. That's a rather large negative impact, and not within the rights of anyone to impose on you.

DeficitHawk says

resort to pitchforks, rifles, and nooses every time that happens

Not every time, THIS one time. The vaxx mandates are the worst crime against the largest number of people ever committed. It is THE moral issue which divides the people who would collaborate with genocide from those who would resist genocide.

It's Jim Jones kind of stuff here, the difference between people who drink the kool aid and those who see just how insane it is to drink it.

DeficitHawk says

why dont others participate?

I think the subconscious realization that they have participated in true evil on a mind-boggling level make them uncomfortable, so they don't want to think about it.

DeficitHawk says

people who have minority opinions and keep getting beat in elections

The total popular House vote was majority Republican. That's not minority.

The election of Trump was not getting beat. Not that I'm much of a Trump fan, but his historic win in 2016 energized a lot of people who have been harmed for decades by, for example, the outsourcing of US manufacturing to China.

My provocative counter-theory is that the Democrats are barely-concealed fascists, perfectly willing to violate freedom of speech, the 2nd amendment, voting integrity, and all other rights, using lame excuses like the eternal "state of emergency" as long as it keeps them in power.

I think the real psychological reason that a lot of Democrats went along with utterly unethical mandates of a dangerous and ineffective experiment is that they were actually willing to risk death as long as they could impose their will on Republicans.

Onvacation says

DeficitHawk says

'take the jab or you cant work here'.

I have a friend that worked at a credit union for thirty years. She was fired for not wanting to take an experimental biologic agent. I guess she can learn to code at home.

Dooood! Why didn't you steer her towards filing a religious accommodation request? It's been extensively discussed on this very site.

mell says

change through voting

Can change through voting ever remove unelected "health" officials? How would that happen if they are immune from firing by the executive branch? I'm not saying it's completely impossible, but that there is no clear path on how to fire someone like Fauci quickly when he starts killing people with the vaxx, ventilators, Remdesivir, suppression of ivermectin, etc.

Fauci is in control of a vast amount of funding for scientific research, so there is little willingness among scientists to stand up and speak out. The official scientific "evidence" will always be on the side of the people funding the creation of that "evidence".

And then there's the timing issue. Do you wait years for an election as people are killed by Fauci's policies, knowing that whoever is elected probably cannot touch Fauci anyway?

Patrick says

mell says

change through voting

Can change through voting ever remove unelected "health" officials? How would that happen if they are immune from firing by the executive branch? I'm not saying it's completely impossible, but that there is no clear path on how to fire someone like Fauci quickly

How is "Dr" Fuckyouchi immune from the firing by the President? I believe the fucker could be fired at any second.

Patrick says

Not every time, THIS one time. The vaxx mandates are the worst crime against the largest number of people ever committed. It is THE moral issue which divides the people who would collaborate with genocide from those who would resist genocide.

Sure for you its this one time, this vaccine mandate for just covid is the straw that broke the back. But for the next guy, maybe measles vaccine. or for the next guy, maybe nevada senate race fraud allegations. or for the next guy who knows what it is. I guess Im saying if you cant get behind the democratic principles on the whole, then every random nutjob will up on the clocktower with a rifle over his own personal "THIS one time".

Patrick says

I think the subconscious realization that they have participated in true evil on a mind-boggling level make them uncomfortable, so they don't want to think about it.

I will offer you a different explanation. Most mainstreamers and democrats have seen a few unfounded conspiracy theories coming from echo chambers like this, and attempts to engage in discussion result in impasse and inability to agree on basic facts. I was at that point of hopelessness earlier in this thread myself. So what to do? simple, dismiss the entire crowd as tinfoil hat folks and dont bother talking to them. Certainly several people on this thread advocated the same course of action regarding discussions with me!. I am certain if I told my leftie friends that I was having conversations on this thread they'd tell me I am wasting my time with loonies.

The true answer here is mainstreamers and democrats have dismissed you as crazy just as this community has dismissed mainstream community as crazy.

I really think you should deeply consider that this is the main factor if you want to improve the situation.

Patrick says

The total popular House vote was majority Republican. That's not minority.

The election of Trump was not getting beat. Not that I'm much of a Trump fan, but his historic win in 2016 energized a lot of people who have been harmed for decades by, for example, the outsourcing of US manufacturing to China.

Thats fine. Win some lose some. I am not questioning the results, and I am not getting out my microscope to look for anomalies. But Patrick, tell me... how many hours have you and the others on this thread spent pouring over election result anomalies in the republican house wins? Is it the same as the Trump loss?

I do not mean that "people who vote republican" are a minority. Thats close to half and half or maybe only slight minorty. The minority positions I mean are:

"Trump Won" (Most people dont believe this, maybe 30%)
"Covid was a hoax or conspiracy" (Most people do not believe this. maybe 25%)

Hugh_Mongous says

Patrick says

mell says

change through voting

Can change through voting ever remove unelected "health" officials? How would that happen if they are immune from firing by the executive branch? I'm not saying it's completely impossible, but that there is no clear path on how to fire someone like Fauci quickly

How is "Dr" Fuckyouchi immune from the firing by the President? I believe the fucker could be fired at any second.

I recall articles calling for the power of the president to fire anyone in the executive branch, implying that that power does not exist, especially with respect to Fauci.

Patrick says

I recall articles calling for the power of the president to fire anyone in the executive branch, implying that that power does not exist, especially with respect to Fauci.

The president can fire political appointees, but not civil servants.

I have a simple question. If everyone you know who got the vaxx died, but the government kept denying it, would you still stick to voting alone as a way to oppose the vaxx?

I want to know what it would take to turn you into me.

I tried to converse with a democrat last year on several topics and all I heard was "this was debunked" and "already debunked" offering no explanation only emotion. I guess if they all have their abortions there will be less of these idiots around to put the country into ruin.

DeficitHawk says

I guess my take on this all is that if you have a minority view on things like this, you will sometimes be forced to endure some inconvenience by the majority. It is part of democracy.

We don't live in a democracy! We live in a constitutional republic based on liberty, justice, and the rights of the individual.

You seem to be lobbying for a country of rulers who restrict liberty. We are already living in a country of injustice.

Patrick says

I have a simple question. If everyone you know who got the vaxx died, but the government kept denying it, would you still stick to voting alone as a way to oppose the vaxx?

I want to know what it would take to turn you into me.

Yes, Patrick at that point I would turn in to you. But the information I am seeing looks nothing remotely like that scenario.

Yes even I will wind up at the top of the water tower if you push me far enough.... but I am frankly willing to live in the give and take of democracy and I realize I wont get my way all the time. I am a moderate, living SF Bay area which is very left. I often dont get my way. I know this. I know why I live in the area anyway, its the decision I have made. I want the police in my city to do more to prevent petty crime, but I dont get the response I want from my city officials. Im not going up the water tower over those issues. But I do vote. and I do communicate with my city officials directly over my concerns.

OK, we actually agree on the principle of defending basic human rights against a government/corporate machine which is out of control.

What if, say, 0.1 percent of vaxx recipients died or were severely injured, yet the government kept denying it?

I think that’s approximately how it is now.

This conversation is nice and all... however, we all need to realize that we are living in times of deceit. There are literal armies foreign and domestic (well-funded, mind you) deployed to sway public opinion and it has been particularly noticeable over the past several years. Credit to those who realized this long before me. The shills will do anything to throw you off, make you doubt there is malicious intent. No need to go into the various techniques. OK, now I will butt out.

DeficitHawk says

"Trump Won" (Most people dont believe this, maybe 30%)
"Covid was a hoax or conspiracy" (Most people do not believe this. maybe 25%)

Would you agree that there was a lot of fraud in 2020?

Will you acknowledge that 75% of Covid deaths were amongst those 65 or older?

Facts are facts. If numbers and logic won't change your mind then you are probably a victim of propaganda. The fact that you are trying to debate, the fact that you are bringing redacted (wonder why?) documents in an attempt to support your ideas, the fact that you are trying, shows that your eyes may yet be opened.

Patrick says

What if, say, 0.1 percent of vaxx recipients died or were severely injured, yet the government kept denying it?

This would be a high rate of side effects, only acceptable if the severity of the disease is higher still. covid is probably higher than 0.1 percent, but only by a few times, and I'd want a better risk/benefit in a vaccine.

But I think you are alleging that there is a high rate of side effects than studies show, people know about this, and a cover up going on. I dont see the evidence for it. and when I've looked, I've gotten lost in tin foil hat world of non credible information, and given up. So it puts me back to the same way of thinking as the Trump election theft allegations. I dismiss it as conspiracy theory after reasonable effort to check... after the first few leads turn to be non credible or debunked, it is deminishing returns to keep following up on more. At some point, I have to get on with my life.

Let me put it this way: I dont really believe there are conspiracies going on regarding covid or elections. But sure I'd allow that maybe there are and Im wrong. Im not going to spend much of my personal effort doing this research, because I dont see much likelyhood of a return on that effort. I generally regard the people who tout the conspiracies as tin-foil hatters. BUT I am glad the tin-foil hatters exist, because every once in a while the tin-foil hatters are right. If the tin-foil hatters are right, I expect they'd be able to put forth a cogent explanation that makes sense, is grounded in evidence, and isnt readily debunked.. and if such an explanation were to come forward and gain visibility, I'd want to make sure to know about it. Its one of the reasons I read this forum.

But until I see something that breaks through the level non-credible/debunkable/circumstantial 'only makes sense to a tin foil hatter'... I will just go on living my life. I dont have time to do otherwise.