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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   53,178 views  779 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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210   WookieMan   2024 Jan 21, 4:43am  

Eman says

Everybody = myself included. I accept what the government offers to everyone. I didn’t take anything from anyone illegitimately.

You’re a whiner. I won’t waste my time with you. See you around Patnet, but don’t expect me to respond to any of your posts in the future.

Rich is aggressive, so don't get worked up about it. I do like his takes on a lot of things though somewhat repetitive at time. I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at least. The government WILL get their money from you. Especially being in CA with the highest gas tax in the nation. That money is used to pay for your already shitty roads and you're not paying it. And yes I was just out there and I know the industry. CA has awful roads considering they don't freeze and thaw at the lower elevations.

Your $300 savings is going to be a massive swing in registration fees or MFT at the charging station at some point in the near future. CA can legislate fees at charging stations overnight to get tax revenue. Enjoy it now, no one has said you did anything illegitimate. All I'm saying is you overpaid for a car and the saving WILL go away. And in 6 years you're going to need another probably $100k car. You do what you want with your $$$ but it simply isn't logical for a car in any way.

You can't tout real estate prowess and then talk about a $70k car being a good value and you're saving money. You're not. You can buy an electric hybrid and pay $0 in gas. And you can get bigger cars that have more utility for $40k with longer range. We don't have the grid for this shit and you know it out in CA. Just admit the only reason you have it is status and it's a fun car to drive. That's 100% and not a judgement. I've been to CA plenty and have seen the useless luxury cars. It's stupid bad out there.

Put the $30-50k difference into investments, not cars. I hope you paid cash too. Financing $70k on a car is doubling down on a bad decision. This isn't a horse and carriage to a model T. You can get other cars that get from A to B. Driving an expensive car is just a target on your back that people know they extract your money. Again have fun with it, but there are nice cars for half the cost and still can be $0 in gas a month. Hybrids will get taxed too. I frankly don't get how this is even a conversation. You cannot pay for roads taking ICE vehicles off the roads, especially out there. It's coming dude. The roads and grid need the $$$$ and a lot of it.
211   Booger   2024 Jan 21, 5:26am  

In theory can we take a used EV and sell it to each other (as in pass it to the next person) so we can all get the tax credit?
212   WookieMan   2024 Jan 21, 5:39am  

Booger says

In theory can we take a used RV and sell it to each other (as in pass it to the next person) so we can all get the tax credit?

Not sure. I think most tax credits have to be new purchases. I don't think the 2nd to whatever number person gets it. I don't know why we're giving these credits out anyway. As I've said Musk has made great things but he's the biggest tax grifter to have existed in US history and that's including the MIC industries.
213   Booger   2024 Jan 21, 5:45am  

https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-credit

Used Clean Vehicle Credit

Beginning January 1, 2023, if you buy a qualified used electric vehicle (EV) or fuel cell vehicle (FCV) from a licensed dealer for $25,000 or less, you may be eligible for a used clean vehicle tax credit (also referred to as a previously owned clean vehicle credit). The credit equals 30% of the sale price up to a maximum credit of $4,000.

OK, so you have to buy it from a dealership, and there are income limits.
214   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 21, 7:58am  

Booger says


https://www.irs.gov/credits-deductions/used-clean-vehicle-credit

Used Clean Vehicle Credit

Beginning January 1, 2023, if you buy a qualified used electric vehicle (EV) or fuel cell vehicle (FCV) from a licensed dealer for $25,000 or less, you may be eligible for a used clean vehicle tax credit (also referred to as a previously owned clean vehicle credit). The credit equals 30% of the sale price up to a maximum credit of $4,000.

OK, so you have to buy it from a dealership, and there are income limits.


You need a dealer license for your scheme of passing the same EV around to work. Buy it as a dealer, sell it to your friend, split $4K, buy it back, sell it to another friend, split $4K, rinse, repeat...

It stupid states like CA sales tax will cut into your profits though.
215   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 21, 8:25am  

Eman says

Alright, if this is all you got, I’ll never respond to you ever again. It was nice chatting.


All I got?

YOU signed up to the socal2 bullshit gravy train. I specifically asked if that is what you were willingly doing. And you did.

So it isn't about 'what I got'. I don't have to do much of anything. You just did it all.
216   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 21, 8:28am  

WookieMan says

I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at least.


I think he does but can't acknowledge it since he can't argue against inconvenient facts. He's really pinned now that he's latched his credibility to socal2's, too.
217   WookieMan   2024 Jan 21, 9:31am  

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says


I don't think you're getting what I'm saying at least.


I think he does but can't acknowledge it since he can't argue against inconvenient facts. He's really pinned now that he's latched his credibility to socal2's, too.

I'm just looking for honesty really. It's cheaper to have a similar model hybrid car that can get $0/mo in gas that gets more range and utility and half the cost. Just say it's a fun car to drive and call it a day if you're an EV owner. It's mathematically not cheaper than most ICE cars.

I'm not joking when I talk about the golf cart thing. I dropped $1,300 on a cheap lithium battery to get 25-30 miles at 16mph. Scale that out by distance, speed, weight, etc. The CA guys live in the most expensive state and their state government is coming after the EV owners shortly. It's gonna happen. I'm commenting more as a warning and it seems like the obvious is being ignored. Whatever.
219   richwicks   2024 Jan 21, 4:12pm  

Eman says


Everybody = myself included. I accept what the government offers to everyone. I didn’t take anything from anyone illegitimately.


The government is illegitimate. Don't you realize that? We don't have border controls, our current jerk off of a president wasn't elected, we have political prisoners, we don't have free speech, our government directly censors individuals, and our military is completely occupied in going to wars that have nothing to do with this country as our president and many members of congress openly engage in accepting bribes and doing insider stock trading.

That's our government.

If solar panels actually produced cheaper electricity, and they don't in many cases, just be installing solar your electric bill would go down. It doesn't. This is another boondoogle program that harms EVERYBODY. The energy consumption in producing your solar panels very likely exceeds the amount of energy you'll ever recover from using them. That make any sense to you?

They're basically intermittent batteries that never get more energy out of them than is put into making them. Who would do this?

In time we might get viable solutions, but there's no sense installing nonviable ones.

Eman says


You’re a whiner. I won’t waste my time with you.


I'm an engineer, I use my brain. You don't. MOST people don't. Most engineers don't. I'm fucking tired of it. "Duuuur, it advantages me because I offload the cost using a corrupt stupid government to do it!" You don't even recognize that you MIGHT be scum.

All these green-energy initiatives just consume MORE energy. People do the analysis and explain it, it's not part of the latest government scam so it's never in your stupid "news".

Do you think they are JUST finding out that solar electric doesn't make sense? Solar ALMOST does - if you take good care of it and maintain it, you can actually walk out ahead, but you have also be lucky, no breakage, have to remove dust, etc. Solar is the closest thing we've got, wind is a complete wash, total waste of money. It's engineered stupidity. There's just SO MANY SCAMS, and we have real problems to work on.
221   WookieMan   2024 Jan 21, 5:11pm  

Eman says




🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

Dude, did you click on the link? There's nothing there. On a website owned by the owner of Tesla. Linked to a congressional committee that's run by Dem Senators that tout this shit.

Let us know how those electric trains are going. The electric shipping container ships. Those electric semis that I've seen zero of. If it was more efficient these would be the industries making the changes first. They're not. Why is that? Golf courses are more advanced than trillions of dollars in shipping. Good luck even owning a Tesla without oil. It couldn't be built. So yeah it's subsidized for good reason.

Just admit you like to own an expensive car that doesn't save you money. It simply doesn't. You've admittedly stated you're over $100k in to fund a car basically. This isn't jealousy. It's pointing out stupidity. I don't care if you make $10M a year, it's a stupid purchase. Maybe make memories and not buy stupid shit because you could stroke out tomorrow and was the car worth it? Nope. Your priorities are a joke my friend.

Your true colors are being shown so you post "texts" "helping" friends out on million dollar deals. I'm calling bull shit dude. You don't get markets or how things are actually made by posting this meme. Enjoy the overpriced golf cart. You're out of your element.
222   richwicks   2024 Jan 21, 5:11pm  

Eman says




🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/tescalendar1/status/1749050553160577071?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q


A trillion? I'm very doubtful of that. I think what they are doing is including the ENTIRE US military budget in that calculation.

There should be no subsidies whatsoever. Eliminate them, and we will end up with the best solution if we allow the market to decide.
223   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 21, 5:32pm  

"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

https://apple.news/AoJQFQaBXQ6K7K3W3BBdE0w
224   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 5:00am  

RWSGFY says


"I Rented a Tesla for a 1,600-Mile Road Trip. I’ll Think Twice Next Time."

lol. You can't go full retard.

original link

Extra edit: This is just a rental. This guy spells it out almost exactly as imagined IMHO. And that doesn't include the price of the car if it was purchased and not a rental. They're not cheaper.
226   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 7:29am  

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.
227   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 7:58am  

Eman says

This is why I’m an investor and you’re not Wookie. I understand numbers. You buy used cars, and think like a W2 person. I think like a business person. I don’t see myself buying a used car ever again. We’re at 2 different points in our lives.

You don't think like a business person though. You buy a big vehicle and get the better tax incentive and write the gas off and it's cheaper than a Tesla and has more function. Again, you wanted a fun to drive car and status. There's nothing more to this. If you're truly a business owner and investor you would have taken advantage of this. You didn't.

I buy used cars because they're cheaper and I'm not an idiot. I don't need a fancy or fast car. There's literally no reason for it besides ego. Nothing else. I'll say it again and again and again. It's a fun car to drive. It's stupid to own one. I guess I like to work with my hands and not drive a baby car around. I need to tow stuff. Tesla's wouldn't even charge last week in Chicago. You got yourself a $70k paperweight.

Eman says

With respect to solar/electricity, there are 2 options: 1) pay the utility company, or pay the bank to finance the solar system. No money out of pocket. The solar system can pay for itself in 6 years, and the remaining 19+ years of electricity is free. Which one makes more financial sense? I’ll let the readers decide.

19 years, lol. Rarely does anyone live in a home that long. You just covered someone else's electric bill. Even if you did the next Tesla will be $100k and the next $150k by then. You literally don't have any savings dude. You paid for a car on a monthly basis for solar on your roof, financed to charge your expensive car... Dude, you're not making any sense.

You still haven't factored in the charges that are coming. It will be even more expensive. Especially in CA. Rising state income taxes, more EV's on the road and there will be a EVT (electric vehicle tax). Your utility is going to charge you more. For the 40th time or whatever. You bought a car that is fun to drive and you like it. It's not cheaper. It's not green. Just say that. You're trying to justify something that isn't true by any data readily available.
228   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 7:59am  

WookieMan says

I understand numbers.


Hahaha
229   WookieMan   2024 Jan 22, 8:14am  

UkraineIsFucked says

WookieMan says


I understand numbers.


Hahaha

misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.
230   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 8:38am  

We’ll have to agree to disagree. We don’t see eye to eye on this issue.

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here
231   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 9:21am  

“19 years”

It’s more often than you think. Ask all homeowners on Patnet how long have they been in their house?

We might be the exception, but I’ve been in our house for over 20 years. My older sister has been in hers for 27 years. Younger brothers 13-14 years. Youngest sister is 5+ years. She’ll likely keep it as a rental when she upgrades in the coming years. Low property tax basis, low fixed mortgage rate so why not. I bought this place 12 years ago during the downturn and she “inherited” the low basis.

Wife’s siblings, her youngest brother last move was 9 years ago. All others have been in theirs for 14-25 years.
232   GNL   2024 Jan 22, 10:23am  

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.
233   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 11:30am  

Eman says

I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.


The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..
234   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 11:42am  

WookieMan says

UkraineIsFucked says


WookieMan says



I understand numbers.


Hahaha


misquote? I mostly understand numbers but I know I ain't perfect. I know I'm right on Tesla's being over priced and takes years to even out gas costs though. And if you run a business a big ICE car will do you better.


Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles. If you are only in a market for a basic 4 cylinder Toyota Camry to get you around, Tesla would still be a luxury.

EV prices (at least Teslas) will continue to drop as Tesla continues to revolutionize manufacturing and battery production. Tesla has already dramatically reduced the cost of batteries and have been creating a price war in the last 6 months that is killing the other OEMs.

Guarantee you that Tesla will be able to manage their COGS a fuck-ton better than the other OEM's are going to manage their Union labor and pension costs they just dramatically jacked up last year.


https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-ev-market-ice-price-parity-2023/


235   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 12:05pm  

socal2 says

Have you seen the prices of comparable ICE cars these days? Price of Tesla's (without incentives) is nearly on par with equivalent ICE vehicles.


So? The COST of them is several times over.
236   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 12:13pm  

GNL says

Wookie is most certainly correct about average number of years between moves. This is a fact.


I know the average is 7 years, but it’s not common in my sphere of friends and family. We’re likely the exceptions. Maybe different cultures handle/view housing differently. Highly likely I’ll die in this house.
237   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 12:18pm  

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.

We live in the most innovative region of the world. I don’t blame others for their views and thinking. They don’t know what they don’t know.
238   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 12:20pm  

Eman says

Ask all the people who went from an ICE car to EV. Who will go back to ICE and who will never go back. People vote with their checkbook. Let the numbers do the talking.


So what?

Doesn't change reality.
239   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 12:37pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

So? The COST of them is several times over.


No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?


240   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 1:23pm  

socal2 says

No not at all.

Prices are about the same now between Tesla and comparable ICE cars.

But Tesla makes 4X the profit margin (without incentives) than the other automakers making ICE cars.

How does that work unless Tesla has brought down Costs?


You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.
241   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 1:56pm  

UkraineIsFucked says

You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.



242   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 2:08pm  

socal2 says

UkraineIsFucked says


You're clueless. Absolutely clueless. And it is because you are willingly so, too.






That's right. It's all you post. And now Eman has hitched his wagon to it. Amazing.
243   Eric Holder   2024 Jan 22, 2:11pm  

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.
244   socal2   2024 Jan 22, 2:15pm  

Eric Holder says

Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.


I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.

Autistic boy replies with his same screechy bot type reply.
245   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 2:25pm  

Eric Holder says


Personal back-and-forth is boring. Add some meat to the discussion.


I already did. As have others, like Wookie has.. socal2 and Eman ignored it and started Tesla Fluffing.

That's what they do. I am not going to repeat the effort of what I have presented because those two Tesla Fluff to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Go back and read thru the thread if you like. Otherwise, don't bitch about 'lack of meat'.
246   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Jan 22, 2:26pm  

socal2 says

I provide charts, tables and links to back up my assertions.


Out of context Tesla Fluffing aren't assertions.
247   HeadSet   2024 Jan 22, 4:47pm  

Blue says

Stations are more practical solution. On wall socket my plaid takes about 100h to fully charge at around 12A load! btw, I don't have strong opinion on EVs.

Not everyone has a Plaid, and do not always have to go from zero tro full charge. Consider a Bolt EUV or Model 3 owner who lives in an apartment with no ability to install a Level 2 charger. If that guy can plug in at work on 110v, he can replenish 4 miles per hour of charge or 32 miles in an 8-hour workday. Do this every day in his commuter car and he may only have to visit the commercial charging station once a month.
248   Eman   2024 Jan 22, 6:21pm  

socal2 says

Eman says


I’ve noticed that it seems like the people, who make comments on Tesla, have never owned one.


The Tesla Model Y (even without incentives or anticipated gas savings) was simply cheaper from the start (and much faster and more fun to drive) than all of the other luxury models I was looking buy. Simple as that. I make enough money and drive enough that I am not settling for a Toyota Camry or another Ford Explorer.

Wookieman at least claims to have driven in a Tesla. Apparently his frequent long road trips and hauling requirements make it a no go for him.

Putin Porn Boy just responds with his typical autistic screechy bot type replies thinking he is clever - instead of sounding retarded..

Let him be. There’s an ignore button if you ever feel the need to keep your sanity. 😂
249   RWSGFY   2024 Jan 22, 7:20pm  

Eman says

By the way, Tesla is not a status. They’re everywhere in the Bay Area unlike where you live. Just ask the Bay Areans here


That's true. Out of last 4 Ubers I took 3 were Teslas.

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