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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   15,471 views  517 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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479   WookieMan   2024 Feb 24, 7:14am  

Those are cool looking cars. I'll give it that. But does no one have kids on this site??? These, including Tesla are totally unpractical or mid life crisis purchases. That's all Tesla owners i know in IL. 40-55 and just wanted a senseless car that costs more than an ICE hybrid or straight up ICE.
480   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 8:59am  

I drive a Camry. Great cars. I hope to get 300,000 miles out of it. Every mechanic I've spoken to says it's highly likely that I will.

I consider 60s era restomods as art. Some people see beauty in different things...paintings, furniture, houses, jewelry, vases etc.
481   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 9:20am  

Just scroll this page. Restomods are unique, beautiful and hold value.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=restomod&ko=-1&iax=images&ia=images
482   socal2   2024 Feb 24, 9:22am  

Eman says

The biggest hang up is whether the company will survive in the next couple years. The CEO said the company will become profitable in Q4. If they do, it’s a go for me. I’m rooting for them.


This chart is sobering for most EV makers and especially Rivian. Also clearly shows how amazing Tesla has been at scaling.


483   socal2   2024 Feb 24, 9:33am  

WookieMan says

Never got the speed thing


I don't really speed above the limit, I just accelerate to the speed limit as fast as possible at every opportunity. With a Tesla, you can do that without making loud engine noise, burning your tires out or smoking your brakes. You can have so much fun driving aggressively (legally) and doing it stealthy without being an obnoxious douche and waking up the neighborhood.

IT NEVER GETS OLD. At least for me.

That, and I have tons of hills and fun roads to drive on in my area. Can't stand climbing hills in my wife's Hyundai as it downshifts and struggles...
484   Eman   2024 Feb 24, 10:46am  

GNL says

Eman says



Al_Sharpton_for_President says









When I first came to the US, I loved the Camaro Iroc Z. The seller wanted $8k for a slight used, low mileage, in mint condition car. I was a HS kid with no money. Happened to see another guy driving a Camaro with the license plate frame “Pony Killer”. 🤣



My first car was a brand new red 1987 Mustang GT with a T-top. It only took me 3 days to get my first ticket...$500.


This was my first car. It was a 1-ton truck. The ride was so rough/bouncy. My dad paid $1k for it. Color was burgundy/brownish. There were dents allover the truck. Met my wife (GF then) when I was still driving it. I love my wife who stuck with me through the thick and thin. Now, we can afford almost any car we want.

My older sister is on her 3rd or 4th Camry now. Extremely reliable car. Her next car will be a Tesla model Y she said.


485   Eman   2024 Feb 24, 10:50am  

socal2 says

WookieMan says


Never got the speed thing


I don't really speed above the limit, I just accelerate to the speed limit as fast as possible at every opportunity. With a Tesla, you can do that without making loud engine noise, burning your tires out or smoking your brakes. You can have so much fun driving aggressively (legally) and doing it stealthy without being an obnoxious douche and waking up the neighborhood.

IT NEVER GETS OLD. At least for me.

That, and I have tons of hills and fun roads to drive on in my area. Can't stand climbing hills in my wife's Hyundai as it downshifts and struggles...

Yup, the instant torque is addictive. It never gets old, and it puts a smile on our face every time we drive it. Going up the hills, dead stop and we can just zoom off the moment we can go again without any struggles. Being able to zip in stealth mode is fun. NoMoICE.
486   Eman   2024 Feb 24, 11:13am  

Edmunds revised their article after getting called out.



Eman says

Like Business Insider, Edmunds got caught with bad journalism. MSM knows anything relates to Tesla and/ot Elon will generate tons of clicks. Was it an honest mistake, or was it a click bait? 🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1761043723545153583?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
487   HeadSet   2024 Feb 24, 6:14pm  

Eman says

There were dents allover the truck. Met my wife (GF then) when I was still driving it.

Well, like the song says, "There's something women love about a pickup man."
488   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 7:15pm  

Show me any car on the market today more beautiful than this restomod. A car like this is as reliable as a car made in 2024 and will feel like a modern one too.


490   HeadSet   2024 Feb 24, 7:42pm  

GNL says

Show me any car on the market today more beautiful than this restomod. A car like this is as reliable as a car made in 2024 and will feel like a modern one too.




Gorgeous, but I would love to see that fad of oversize rims go away.
491   stereotomy   2024 Feb 24, 8:59pm  

Besides, it reeks of being "stanced."

Wanna bet it's -5 camber on the rear wheels?
492   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 5:42am  

The stance is perfect. Ever notice how tiny the wheel/tire combo were on these original cars? This is a huge improvement. A great restomod has almost every part improved. Sometimes even the original body has subtle and expensive styling improvements.
493   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Feb 25, 6:02am  

Eman says


Yup, the instant torque is addictive

What’s the skidpad and weight distribution? I used to own a Miata. Not fast but perfectly balanced with a decent skidpad - taking curves was a blast, especially with the manual trans.
494   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:18am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Eman says



Yup, the instant torque is addictive

What’s the skidpad and weight distribution? I used to own a Miata. Not fast but perfectly balanced with a decent skidpad - taking curves was a blast, especially with the manual trans.

“In addition to its near 50/50 weight distribution, Model 3 was also designed with an extremely low polar moment of inertia, which means that its heaviest components are located closer to the car’s center of gravity.”

https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa

“Not a believer? Floor it from a stop and try a few 30-to-50-mph pulls. This is a car that flirts with 1 g both on the skidpad, with a 0.96 g effort, and in gut-punching acceleration. An over-the-air update that was delivered back in 2019 promised a 5 percent increase of power to all Model 3s, and the Performance will pin you back in the seat like a supercar.”

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36329678/2019-tesla-model-3-performance-by-the-numbers/

Thanks for the question. I had no idea what skidpad was. I would wait for the new model 3 performance to be released in a few months. The reviews for the new model 3 have been amazing.
495   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:23am  

I drove a Miata for a few days during my W2 days. My BIL borrowed my truck and gave me his Miata to commute to work then. Small fun little car to drive, but it seemed unstable once I hit 85-90 mph.

My neighbor had a Miata for the longest time. Now, he drives a model 3.
496   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:29am  

GNL says

Show me any car on the market today more beautiful than this restomod. A car like this is as reliable as a car made in 2024 and will feel like a modern one too.




I’m a consumer. I see an old car, and I see nothing but troubles. 😅

If money were not an option, I would like a Lambo Aventador, or a Ferrari SF90 or a McLaren 720S. The picture doesn’t do justice but I saw 3 of them yesterday on the freeway. These would be fun and status cars. Tesla….? 😂 everyone and their mother drive one here in the Bay Area.


497   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:34am  

Wife took the photo. I told her should we get one for our garage? She said nooo. I’m setting her up so when I can get the Tesla Roadster at a fraction of the cost with much much lower maintenance cost when the time comes. 🤣


498   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Feb 25, 8:47am  

Eman says

unstable once I hit 85-90 mph.

I think “darty" is the word. :>))
499   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 9:20am  

GNL says

I consider 60s era restomods as art. Some people see beauty in different things...paintings, furniture, houses, jewelry, vases etc.

I like old cars and agree with you. There are cool nostalgic cars for sure. I don't like it, but my neighbor has the wood station wagon. Makes me smile every time I see it.

My thing is spending more money on fast cars makes zero sense in my world. Speeding is illegal and reckless for you and others on the road. I've had a few friends injured or die in wrecks where they were driving like idiots.

And if my grammar and typing are off today I was out till 3am. Fun night.
500   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 9:36am  

Eman says

socal2 says

WookieMan says

Never got the speed thing

I don't really speed above the limit, I just accelerate to the speed limit as fast as possible at every opportunity. With a Tesla, you can do that without making loud engine noise, burning your tires out or smoking your brakes. You can have so much fun driving aggressively (legally) and doing it stealthy without being an obnoxious douche and waking up the neighborhood.

IT NEVER GETS OLD. At least for me.

That, and I have tons of hills and fun roads to drive on in my area. Can't stand climbing hills in my wife's Hyundai as it downshifts and struggles...

Yup, the instant torque is addictive. It never gets old, and it puts a smile on our face every time we drive it. Going up the hills, dead stop and we can just zoom off the moment we can go again without any struggles. Being able to zip in stealth mode is fun. NoMoICE.

Check out your laws. Accelerating fast will get you pulled over even if not speeding even if tires aren't squealing or a loud engine. It's dangerous and that's not really an argument. You shouldn't do it. No one can hear the car either. I don't understand how anyone could think that's responsible driving? And CA drivers are notoriously bad as I've personally witnessed during my visits. Like really bad. Worst state I've driven in.

Enjoy the day you hit a kid going 0-40mph in 1 second. It's a when not if situation. Especially in CA. But hey, overpaying $20k+ plus for a depreciating vehicle is the smart thing to do... lol. I'll take my savings and invest it, cover my gas and laugh at the EV owners all day. It's a mid life crisis purchase. Just own it. Used to be a Corvette. That's what you're driving. I just rent what I want and don't have to deal with higher insurance and hassle. It's like owning a boat.
501   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 11:37am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Eman says



Yup, the instant torque is addictive

What’s the skidpad and weight distribution? I used to own a Miata. Not fast but perfectly balanced with a decent skidpad - taking curves was a blast, especially with the manual trans.

Go give the existing model 3 a demo drive. It’s free. Nothing to lose if you don’t like it. The model 3 performance is coming soon. It will sell like hot cakes IMO. I’ll likely drop $55k to buy it. It’ll be my new daily drive.

https://x.com/sawyermerritt/status/1761802489626521930?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
502   FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden   2024 Feb 25, 11:48am  

i live in a country. electric mowers and tractors are nonstarter. they don’t last, charge forever, it stalls across the field, you are fucked, go tow damn thing.

tech needs to be improved a lot. right now i see those as just fun toys for people in the city with spare change.
503   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 12:09pm  

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

i live in a country. electric mowers and tractors are nonstarter. they don’t last, charge forever, it stalls across the field, you are fucked, go tow damn thing.

tech needs to be improved a lot. right now i see those as just fun toys for people in the city with spare change.

They literally only work in cities. Which one shouldn't want to live in if they were smart. We were driving a UTV or SXS through farmland last night. Gotta learn the country life. No cops and you can do what you want and everyone respects each other.

I don't want a douche nozzle car. I want a V-8 that can drive anywhere. Costs less even with gas. I don't even get the back and forth on this. I'd rather have toys instead of overpriced EV's. I've driven a Tesla. Last night was exponentially more fun. But what do I know?
504   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 12:09pm  

FortwayeAsFuckJoeBiden says

i live in a country. electric mowers and tractors are nonstarter. they don’t last, charge forever, it stalls across the field, you are fucked, go tow damn thing.

tech needs to be improved a lot. right now i see those as just fun toys for people in the city with spare change.

The EV will let you know how much battery life is left so you don't get stranded. Unlike a golf cart, if it’s about to die due to technical reason, it will let you know too.

I wouldn’t say it’s just a fun toy, it serves dual purposes for people living in the city. Just my 2 cents.

Most of my tools are battery powered. The same with the lawn trimmer/edger, hedge trimmer and blower, but I live in a suburban area with a standard lot size.
505   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 12:13pm  

“Enjoy the day you hit a kid going 0-40mph in 1 second. It's a when not if situation.”

One thing I know is that you wish ill will on others. Fast cars have been around forever, not just now. How often do we hear people driving a fast car hitting a kid, or just a car hitting a kid? How often do you hear people driving a big SUV hitting a kid?
506   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 12:18pm  

Eman says

The EV will let you know how much battery life is left so you don't get stranded. Unlike a golf cart, if it’s about to die due to technical reason, it will let you know too.

I swear you're a liar at this point dude. I know Tesla. They're not bad. This is the current state of my golf cart...

You own a golf cart that has no utility. Only works in a city. Just own it. It accelerates fast for a 35-45mph speed limit. That cost $20-50k more than a similar car... I don't get this conversation. I'm not the smartest person in the room, but in this case at no point has anyone proven me wrong.
507   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 12:20pm  

A BMS is basic at this point and it works on most or all lithium batteries. Tesla is not something new. These existed before.
508   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 12:35pm  

Eman says

I see an old car, and I see nothing but troubles.

It's because you simply don't know or understand what's possible to achieve with these vehicles and the huge market built around this hobby.
509   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 12:39pm  

I said “technical” reason. You’re not part of the Tesla community where people share issues they have had with their cars. Sometimes, Tesla would notify people the issue before it even happened and had it fixed.

Calling me a liar without any proof while you’re admitting you’re a liar. 🙄
510   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 12:42pm  

GNL says

Eman says


I see an old car, and I see nothing but troubles.

It's because you simply don't know or understand what's possible to achieve with these vehicles and the huge market built around this hobby.

That’s why I don’t have an appreciation for them. I’m a consumer, and I want trouble free cars. Owned a few MBZ, and I’ll never buy them again. Other than they’re safe when an accident occurs, they’re costly to maintain especially after 100k miles….at least from my personal experience. My buddy used to own Bimmers and Audi, and he’s done with them too.
511   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 12:44pm  

Eman says

I’m a consumer, and I want trouble free cars.

Again, you're missing it. These vehicles are trouble free.
512   HeadSet   2024 Feb 25, 1:00pm  

Eman says

Wife took the photo. I told her should we get one for our garage? She said nooo. I’m setting her up so when I can get the Tesla Roadster at a fraction of the cost with much much lower maintenance cost when the time comes.

Maybe she wants her pickup man back, and is playing you to get an old, dented truck.
513   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 3:29pm  

GNL says


Eman says


I’m a consumer, and I want trouble free cars.

Again, you're missing it. These vehicles are trouble free.


I didn’t grow up with them so I don’t know them. Also, I don’t know how to fix cars other than oil change and repair flat tires.

My 1987, 1999 and 2003 trucks were relatively trouble free. The 1999, 2003 and 2007 MBZ started to cost money for maintenance after 100k miles. Over $1.2k each year just for maintenance. Some random crap keeps popping up. Only time, a “manifold” needed to be replaced and that was $2.5k. Oil change was $560 each time from the dealer when the cars were still under warranty. They were still several hundred dollars with outside shops once warranty was over.

The 2017 MDX was trouble free during our 5 years of ownership. Model S has been relatively trouble free. The X had a couple hiccups. Tesla gave us a loaner each time for a couple weeks while they ordered parts. Wife doesn’t seem to mind and still loves her X.
514   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 3:38pm  

Eman says

I didn’t grow up with them so I don’t know them. Also, I don’t know how to fix cars other than oil change and repair flat tires.

Did you grow up with EVs? There's an entire industry surrounding these types of vehicles...for repairs and maintenance just like any other car. They're beautiful, hold their value and all of them are 1 offs.
515   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 3:42pm  

HeadSet says

Eman says


Wife took the photo. I told her should we get one for our garage? She said nooo. I’m setting her up so when I can get the Tesla Roadster at a fraction of the cost with much much lower maintenance cost when the time comes.

Maybe she wants her pickup man back, and is playing you to get an old, dented truck.

😂

My next truck will likely be decided by my daughter and not my wife. Kids in the Bay Area seem to love Tesla. Kind of like the majority of people in Silicon Valley use Apple products. If my daughter decides it will be the Cybertruck.

Tesla car owners who switched to Rivian love their R1T and R1S. Rivian had some hiccups on the outset too, but they have remedied those issues. A dentist friend sold his Tesla S, bought the R1S and has been happy with it.
516   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 3:48pm  

GNL says

Eman says


I didn’t grow up with them so I don’t know them. Also, I don’t know how to fix cars other than oil change and repair flat tires.

Did you grow up with EVs? There's an entire industry surrounding these types of vehicles...for repairs and maintenance just like any other car. They're beautiful, hold their value and all of them are 1 offs.

Good point. I guess no one in my sphere is driving/owning these cars. No one talks about them. Classic cars is another world I know nothing about. I’ve been learning a lot about EVs all these years, but nothing about classic cars. The classic car industry should step up their marketing campaigns.
517   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 4:02pm  

Classic cars aren't a corporation. A group of investors (classic cars are also an investment), collectors and enthusiasts basically make up the market. Reggie Jackson is one of the most famous collectors and started collecting at the perfect time...when hardly anyone was thinking about them.

Maybe some of the first EVs will be worth millions some day?

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