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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   52,104 views  778 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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539   Eman   2024 Mar 1, 8:08am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says


GNL says


Most of these are kit cars.

Yes, really sweet looking replica. And I can see plunking down close to $100k for it. But if that were the case, why not go for the updated real thing?




Why would you drop $100k on a fast car that can only carry 2 persons? Why not buy a used SUV that can carry 7 persons and tow stuff? You know it’s just a matter of when, not if, that you’re going to hit some kid in a fast car. Is this a midlife crisis purchase or a small dick syndrome? 😂

I woke up this morning and felt kind of being funny. Must be Friday. 😂
540   ForcedTQ   2024 Mar 1, 8:17am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

GNL says



Most of these are kit cars.

Yes, really sweet looking replica. And I can see plunking down close to $100k for it. But if that were the case, why not go for the updated real thing?




Huh? That white C8 Corvette isn’t a new version of the 1960’s AC Cobra. You can buy new versions “continuation cars” with CSX6000 and up vins of the Cobra now.
541   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Mar 1, 8:35am  

Eman says


I have a pump and a tire repair kit in each Tesla.

That's a good plan for a flat, not so good for a damaged tire.

from "The Day Our Tesla Inflated" by Rikka Fountain. WSJ page A13 February 27:

"...our high performance Tesla uses high performance tires... those tires can be days away outside a major population center... we could have bought the car with a full size replacement, but that would have left no room for luggage...the tire wasn't patchable..."
542   WookieMan   2024 Mar 1, 10:59am  

That is one of the other problems with Teslas I actually don't hammer on either. They're ugly. Small. At least for a taller guy. Not sure about other EV's as Tesla is the only one I've driven.

They're also advertising on YouTube like gangbusters. They've reached market saturation. I've never seen ads ever. I like older or big cars that guzzle gas. I have my townie cart and I'm good.
543   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Mar 1, 2:11pm  

ForcedTQ says


Huh? That white C8 Corvette isn’t a new version of the 1960’s AC Cobra.

Dang, I was confusing it with a 1950’s Stingray. You are correct, sir!
544   GNL   2024 Mar 1, 2:28pm  

ForcedTQ says

continuation cars

Yep, here's a place you can purchase them. Expensive.
https://revologycars.com/
This is considered a brand new car because it was JUST built from scratch. EVERY part of it.


545   GNL   2024 Mar 1, 2:30pm  

I would think this would fuck up the entire classic car market. Evidently, people/companies resurected the tools/molds etc to make every part. Now you can get a brand new one. If you can build NEW of the most rare cars, how can they keep their value? Hmm, not sure how long they've been doing this but, $338,000 for the one pictured above. Please.
548   DemocratsAreTotallyFucked   2024 Mar 3, 9:02am  

Eman says

Guess where Socal2 and I live? 😂



https://www.autoblog.com/article/the-best-cities-and-states-to-own-an-ev-in-2024/


Yes. The two here in denial that EVs are niche products.
550   Eman   2024 Mar 3, 9:41am  

socal2 says

Proper Cybertruck advertisement!

https://twitter.com/TheStandardNFT/status/1764196509309137158

@socal2, do you know if this was done by Tesla, or one of the fans?

Elon has promised to spend money on ads, but it’s hard to tell which ones are done by Tesla and which ones are done by its fans.
551   socal2   2024 Mar 3, 9:50am  

Eman says

socal2, do you know if this was done by Tesla, or one of the fans?


Looks official.

https://twitter.com/Tesla/status/1763320617758020072
552   ForcedTQ   2024 Mar 3, 10:09am  

I would not call Sacramento, Stockton, Modesto a Metro area. A corridor yes, individually yes, but they are way to separate to be considered one.
556   GNL   2024 Mar 3, 6:29pm  

I'm sorry but, I just can't see the appeal of the cyber truck.
557   Eman   2024 Mar 3, 6:50pm  

GNL says

I'm sorry but, I just can't see the appeal of the cyber truck.


It doesn’t have to make sense to you, me or anyone. I’m just watching the show.



https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1764302141009580280?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
558   Eman   2024 Mar 3, 7:56pm  

Check out the boat’s name. I didn’t know this type of boat exists.



https://x.com/minimalduck/status/1764419994685767922?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
559   richwicks   2024 Mar 3, 8:18pm  

GNL says

I would think this would fuck up the entire classic car market. Evidently, people/companies resurected the tools/molds etc to make every part. Now you can get a brand new one. If you can build NEW of the most rare cars, how can they keep their value? Hmm, not sure how long they've been doing this but, $338,000 for the one pictured above. Please.


I'm going to explain a scam that was pulled on everything from beanie babies to video game cartridges.

Basically, some junk is identified as being "rare" but not so rare that it's impossible to get, so a bunch of this garbage is collected on the cheap through various means. Then they started selling the items to THEMSELVES for larger and larger amounts of money. People see the price going on, and people that already have the garbage wait for higher prices, people that have nostalgia for the garbage think it's a safe buy and what's $200 for a video game from their youth they'd like to play again, or whatever.

The market value stays high until inventories are exhausted.

That's the "classic car market".

There's a few genuine collectors, but they are rare.
560   WookieMan   2024 Mar 4, 12:42am  

Eman says




https://x.com/thejefflutz/status/1764344038541480383?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

Not Chicago dude. 100%. Fan boy post. I just went to a 100% yuppieville fundraiser Saturday night. Not a Tesla in sight. Not one.

I do see them and this was a suburban area. But they aren't popular here. Rich/wealthy people drive cars with utility or that look better. The Cyber Truck is the Pontiac Aztec of modern times. Except worse. You could at least tow with it for more than 100 miles with payload and would be 1/3rd the cost.

It's okay to admit you overpaid for a car you like. If I want a Ferrari and overpay for a toy, I'll do it. There's no point. I'd rather keep the money and invest it. It's okay to pay higher insurance, have only one source for maintenance, and it's ugly. Enjoy I guess?
561   SouthMtn   2024 Mar 4, 3:46am  

WookieMan says


Not Chicago dude. 100%. Fan boy post. I just went to a 100% yuppieville fundraiser Saturday night. Not a Tesla in sight. Not one.

I do see them and this was a suburban area. But they aren't popular here. Rich/wealthy people drive cars with utility or that look better. The Cyber Truck is the Pontiac Aztec of modern times. Except worse. You could at least tow with it for more than 100 miles with payload and would be 1/3rd the cost.

It's okay to admit you overpaid for a car you like. If I want a Ferrari and overpay for a toy, I'll do it. There's no point. I'd rather keep the money and invest it. It's okay to pay higher insurance, have only one source for maintenance, and it's ugly. Enjoy I guess?


I used to live very close to that area, and even now live somewhat close. This is southbound Roselle Rd in Schaumburg, just north of Golf Rd. If you squint you can see Remington Rd on the street sign.

Google map link:
https://www.google.com/maps/@42.0541336,-88.0798096,3a,75y,186.47h,87.54t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sQcXPYYF2LVFxYu8tSaZGrQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?entry=ttu
562   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Mar 4, 4:44am  

WookieMan says

The Cyber Truck is the Pontiac Aztec of modern times.

This.
563   GNL   2024 Mar 4, 4:46am  

Eman says

GNL says


I'm sorry but, I just can't see the appeal of the cyber truck.


It doesn’t have to make sense to you, me or anyone. I’m just watching the show.



https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1764302141009580280?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

It's got to be some kind of scam or bubble. Stupid imo.
565   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Mar 4, 6:34am  

WookieMan says

is spending more money on fast cars makes zero sense in my world.

It’s not necessarily speed, but the handling, the balance, the engagement using a manual shifter, the thrill, the joy. See 25.46.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6orK2v_cOfc
566   WookieMan   2024 Mar 4, 7:29am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

WookieMan says


is spending more money on fast cars makes zero sense in my world.

It’s not necessarily speed, but the handling, the balance, the engagement using a manual shifter, the thrill, the joy. See 25.46.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6orK2v_cOfc

Wasn't fast, but I drove manual for almost 9 years. Wasn't a fast car, but I think the experience made my driving exponentially better hence no tickets. You have to actually drive. As ridiculous as this sounds it made me stop eating fast food. You just become a more aware driver. So I'm in agreement. I just don't like driving fast. Lost too many people I know to it. So I drive like I'm 80 and in a big cars so the other idiots on the road shouldn't kill me.

Maybe I'll have a late mid life crisis and get something fast, but I don't think so. Just not my jam. I got myself in a little trouble when I was young once or twice and I ain't even going to jail for a night. I just don't put myself in bad spots and a fast car could do that. Hence my dislike of Tesla. I'll take my legal golf cart around town and the cops don't even care. If I leave town I need a big car with 3 kids. These kids are tall as well. I just like large SUV's. I'm on time and not in a rush and speed isn't a thrill for me. Nor acceleration. It's doesn't matter. It's of no value financially or emotionally.
567   Eman   2024 Mar 4, 8:06am  

What a coincidence. This person confirms what @southmtn said above about it’s on Golf Rd. Of course, everyone is a liar except Wookie. Wookie knows everything. Do we see a pattern here folks?


568   HeadSet   2024 Mar 4, 8:10am  

Eman says

GNL says


I'm sorry but, I just can't see the appeal of the cyber truck.


It doesn’t have to make sense to you, me or anyone. I’m just watching the show.



https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1764302141009580280?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

I thought that reselling a Cybertruck violated the purchase agreement with Tesla.
569   zzyzzx   2024 Mar 4, 8:31am  

HeadSet says

I thought that reselling a Cybertruck violated the purchase agreement with Tesla.


I'm sure it does, but since enforcement of EVERYTHING is extremely lax these days, and car dealers frequently violate various laws already, a contractual requirement is meaningless to them.
570   WookieMan   2024 Mar 4, 8:34am  

Eman says

What a coincidence. This person confirms what southmtn said above about it’s on Golf Rd. Of course, everyone is a liar except Wookie. Wookie knows everything. Do we see a pattern here folks?

I live here dude. I know exactly where that's at. It's not Chicago. And there's ZERO chance that wasn't planned. Car people get in meet ups all the time. Tesla owners go to breakfast or something. They're not around here like CA. One photo doesn't make what you think is real. I live it. Rural, but it's still a rich area.

Fact is Tesla is actively advertising now. Sales are down. I've never seen an ad until the last 2 months. Market saturation is a thing. No one else wants them. I like Elon, but he's not a god. Cyber is going to be a flop for the truck buyers that expect a truck. It's a status symbol. I got it before you did and once the real performance is realized it will be a disaster. I give no shits about hitting my car with a hammer. The window breaking. I won't be in that scenario ever.

My wife totaled a Sequoia in a rear end accident (not at fault). No stiff necks or injuries at all. 3 kids in the car. It was a fully loaded box truck that hit her. There are plenty of other durable, practical vehicles that can get more the 50 miles with a trailer and sitting at a charger for an hour. I don't think the Tesla lovers are getting my valid point. I don't care that they're fun to drive. I've driven them. They good cars for a certain purpose. They don't remotely do what I would need them to do. I don't live in a city or even a large suburb. They're useless to me and all my neighbors. There's not one in my town.
571   Eman   2024 Mar 4, 9:11am  

HeadSet says

Eman says


GNL says



I'm sorry but, I just can't see the appeal of the cyber truck.


It doesn’t have to make sense to you, me or anyone. I’m just watching the show.



https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1764302141009580280?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q


I thought that reselling a Cybertruck violated the purchase agreement with Tesla.

It did. The damage is $50k fine if Tesla decides to sue the seller. I don’t know why people do this stuff. It makes no sense to me, but it is what it is.
572   Eman   2024 Mar 4, 9:13am  

zzyzzx says

HeadSet says


I thought that reselling a Cybertruck violated the purchase agreement with Tesla.


I'm sure it does, but since enforcement of EVERYTHING is extremely lax these days, and car dealers frequently violate various laws already, a contractual requirement is meaningless to them.

This is true. The Kia EV9 has really good reviews. Kia told the dealerships not to mark up the price, but they still did. Buyers protested. Let’s see how it will play out.
573   Eman   2024 Mar 4, 9:14am  

Ok Wookie, you basically said 3 persons are liars, and you knew better. I’ll let the readers decide. I don’t know the area. I just share info.
574   GNL   2024 Mar 4, 11:29am  

Eman says


I thought that reselling a Cybertruck violated the purchase agreement with Tesla.

It did. The damage is $50k fine if Tesla decides to sue the seller. I don’t know why people do this stuff. It makes no sense to me, but it is what it is.

It does make sense if what you're trying to do is get headlines. That's why I said bubble. In my honest opinion, only an idiot would pay $300,000 for a cyber truck. It's all for headlines/marketing. The dealer probably sold it to himself.
575   Eman   2024 Mar 4, 12:24pm  

GNL says

Eman says



I thought that reselling a Cybertruck violated the purchase agreement with Tesla.

It did. The damage is $50k fine if Tesla decides to sue the seller. I don’t know why people do this stuff. It makes no sense to me, but it is what it is.

It does make sense if what you're trying to do is get headlines. That's why I said bubble. In my honest opinion, only an idiot would pay $300,000 for a cyber truck. It's all for headlines/marketing. The dealer probably sold it to himself.

Wouldn’t that make the dealer look dumb even if it were self dealing? All bidders knew Porsche South Orlando won the bid. The dealer had to pay 5% commission, or whatever fees for the sale. Then they try to resale it for $290k?

There was one that was sold for $250k prior to this auction, but it didn’t reveal who the buyer was. I’m not in the car biz so I don’t understand the strategies behind this kind of purchase.
576   Eman   2024 Mar 4, 8:18pm  

And the show continues. Some people want to cash in while the going is good. I don’t blame them.



https://x.com/sawyermerritt/status/1764749955841819116?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
577   WookieMan   2024 Mar 4, 8:50pm  

Eman says

Ok Wookie, you basically said 3 persons are liars, and you knew better. I’ll let the readers decide. I don’t know the area. I just share info.

At no point did I say anyone here was a liar. It's not Chicago... It's a suburb. Name the suburb, so say what Chicago suburb or quote it that way. That didn't happen in that comment. 2nd, you haven't addressed that is was likely a Tesla meet up and they were all leaving. There are not that many Teslas here.

You don't understand because you're in CA. They're not practical vehicles here. I'm not joking when the batteries die in cold weather. I have an electric vehicle. It being a golf cart doesn't matter. I know the battery tech. I know the charging. You'd be an idiot to not have an ICE back up in my region. So now you've got a 2nd car. Super green. Super saving... lol.

Enjoy it out in CA and live with crazy ideology about being green and an EV making any sense. It doesn't.
578   Eman   2024 Mar 5, 9:15am  

30 sec video clip. She can shake. Too funny to not share. 😂

https://x.com/red_bullish/status/1764704598059815177?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

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