patrick.net

Toyota is doing an end run around the 'designed to fail Green Electric Vehicle' by investing in production lines of hydrogen vehicles. I gather hydrogen may be a technology that works, to the consternation of the energy heroin dealers.

WookieMan says

Less demand for oil makes ICE vehicle cheaper.

Doomberg has a 'law' on that: Hydrocarbon molecules not consumed by one group of people will only be gladly consumed by another.

Like Russian oil or 'evil fracked' shale oil from Texas banned in California (Cali refineries can't use it anyway).

Ceffer says

Toyota is doing an end run around the 'designed to fail Green Electric Vehicle' by investing in production lines of hydrogen vehicles. I gather hydrogen may be a technology that works, to the consternation of the energy heroin dealers.

https://doomberg.substack.com/p/hydrogen-bomb (that might be behind a paywall)

Bloomberg) -- Hertz Global Holdings Inc. plans to sell a third of its US electric vehicle fleet and reinvest in gas-powered cars due to weak demand and high repair costs for its battery-powered options.

The sales of 20,000 EVs began last month and will continue over the course of 2024, the rental giant said Thursday in a regulatory filing. Hertz will record a non-cash charge in its fourth-quarter results of about $245 million related to incremental net depreciation expense.

The dramatic about-face, after Hertz announced plans in 2021 to buy 100,000 Tesla Inc. vehicles, underscores the waning demand for all-electric cars in the US. EV sales growth slowed sharply over the course of 2023, rising just 1.3% in the final quarter as consumers were put off by high costs and interest rates.

“The elevated costs associated with EVs persisted,” Hertz Chief Executive Officer Stephen Scherr said in an interview. “Efforts to wrestle it down proved to be more challenging.”

Hertz plans to use some of the money raised by selling off EVs to buy gas-powered vehicles. “The company expects this action to better balance supply against expected demand of EVs,” it said in the filing.

The shift back to more conventional cars marks a reversal of a strategy centered on EVs, which the company hoped would fetch higher prices at the counter and hold their value.

Tesla’s price cuts raised his company’s depreciation costs, Scherr said. EVs also come with higher repair costs compared to the rest of its cars, which has hurt its bottom line and played a big role in missing third-quarter earnings estimates.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/hertz-sell-20-000-evs-143449475.html

Higher repair costs? You mean like having to replace an entire $26,000 battery pack if the car gets in an accident that otherwise would be a minor fender bender?

UkraineIsFucked says

Higher repair costs? You mean like having to replace an entire $26,000 battery pack if the car gets in an accident that otherwise would be a minor fender bender?

That rarely happens. At least not with Teslas.

Tesla is still a very new car company (despite the Model Y being the best selling car in the world) and there still aren't enough body shop repair places who have experience working on Teslas, so the repairs can be expensive.

Hertz paid full freight for their Teslas and didn't get any kind of volume or commercial discount. So their timing was terrible since Tesla dropped prices last year to combat the higher interest rates and competition from China leaving Hertz with lesser residual value.

Big rental car companies like Hertz don't keep cars beyond a couple years. So it was expected that some of the higher mileage Teslas would be turned over by now.

This whole story is a nothing burger for Tesla. Tesla still can't build cars fast enough to meet their astronomical demand.

SunnyvaleCA says

I think you should try to test drive some of those cars from the 60s and 70s. I had a friend who recently paid quite a bit of money for a well-restored Mustang V8 from that era (sadly, an automatic). He soon realized that, although our current cars are mostly soulless and have entirely too many electronic "features," they are miles easier to live with on a daily basis. He sold it pretty quickly.

The 2 most popular types of old classic cars are 1. Pure original and for investment only and 2. Restomods. Restomods are badass. This is where an old vehicle is modernized and are a dream to drive. I'm a Restomod guy myself.



Believe me, this car is as much fun to drive as any new corvette AND you'd get more admirers.

socal2 says

That rarely happens. At least not with Teslas.

80% of Hertz' EV fleet they are complaining about the repairs being costly are Teslas.

socal2 says

This whole story is a nothing burger for Tesla. Tesla still can't build cars fast enough to meet their astronomical demand.

And yet Hertz is taking a bath in selling these off.

UkraineIsFucked says

80% of Hertz' EV fleet they are complaining about the repairs being costly are Teslas.

But it has nothing to do with the battery as you were alluding to.UkraineIsFucked says

And yet Hertz is taking a bath in selling these off.

Yeah - because Tesla is pumping out their brand new and improved Model 3 Highland versions and the Model Y's are still stupid cheap with the government incentives.

Who wants to buy a beat-up rental Model 3 when you can get a brand new Tesla for a few thousand more?

socal2 says

But it has nothing to do with the battery as you were alluding to.

How do you know?

socal2 says

Who wants to buy a beat-up rental Model 3 when you can get a brand new Tesla for a few thousand more?

Used prices are a lot cheaper now.

Doesn't change the fact that EVs are shit.

UkraineIsFucked says

Doesn't change the fact that EVs are shit.

Honest question. Have you ever owned an EV? If yes, which one(s) were they? When you say EVs are 💩. Is that based on your personal experience?

UkraineIsFucked says

How do you know?

Because our moron media would be screaming it to the rooftops if there was any hint of Tesla battery failures.

Eman says

Honest question. Have you ever owned an EV? If yes, which one(s) were they? When you say EVs are 💩. Is that based on your personal experience?

They've driven golf carts - so they know what it is all about!

Toyota guy at the dealership says Tesla is just a fancy golf cart. No difference!

socal2 says

Eman says

Honest question. Have you ever owned an EV? If yes, which one(s) were they? When you say EVs are 💩. Is that based on your personal experience?

They've driven golf carts - so they know what it is all about!

Toyota guy at the dealership says Tesla is just a fancy golf cart. No difference!

It’s interesting people call it a glorified track mode while the car has drift and track modes, and can also do donuts. It can hang with cars in the $300-$500k range.

I got a Model 3 performance loaner for a week and felt in love with it. At the same time, I no longer enjoy sitting in a low car. I think a MYP is a good compromise, but it wouldn’t be as fun to drive compared to the M3P. I’ve also gotten the MYP loaner for a couple days so I know how it rides.

I’ll wait for the Highland version though. With our low tax bracket, we’ll also qualify for the $7.5k tax credit.

Sure they work fine in Cali, but don't try that shit where it gets cold.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/ar-AA1n1Q5i?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=d0d06ef048f24c9284b3d7922557d2c4&ei=60

socal2 says

Because our moron media would be screaming it to the rooftops if there was any hint of Tesla battery failures.

Can you stay in context? Are you even capable of that?

Eman says

Honest question. Have you ever owned an EV? If yes, which one(s) were they? When you say EVs are 💩. Is that based on your personal experience?

It's based on market data. Personal experience is only something EV Fluffers resort to.

Eman says

UkraineIsFucked says

Doesn't change the fact that EVs are shit.

Honest question. Have you ever owned an EV? If yes, which one(s) were they? When you say EVs are 💩. Is that based on your personal experience?

Evidence suggests that people buying EV's today are early adopters and repairability stinks. EV's need batteries that aren't proprietary and DIY replaceable, and come in standard sizes like regular car batteries are now.

zzyzzx says

EV's need batteries that aren't proprietary and DIY replaceable, an

They need battery packs that aren't comprised of 2,000 distinct parts nor mineral content we can't mine enough of.

The EV Fluffers here don't seem to grasp that the rest of us are looking towards the future and scalability. They think things will scale as they have done so far.

The Tesla Sub-fluffers are even worse. 80% of EVs in the world are made in China. With cobalt. Yet Tesla fluffers see the EV world as being Tesla!

Misc says

Sure they work fine in Cali, but don't try that shit where it gets cold.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news/chicago-area-tesla-charging-stations-lined-with-dead-cars-in-freezing-cold-a-bunch-of-dead-robots-out-here/ar-AA1n1Q5i?ocid=hpmsn&cvid=d0d06ef048f24c9284b3d7922557d2c4&ei=60

Thankfully I don’t live in the cold climate. However, a bunch of guys have been doing experiments and share their results. Very interesting. This guy is from Alberta, Canada where it’s even colder than Chicago.

https://x.com/brucethemodel3/status/1746903381757833696?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

This guy lives in Chicago.

https://x.com/thejefflutz/status/1747120788983980205?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

UkraineIsFucked says

Eman says

Honest question. Have you ever owned an EV? If yes, which one(s) were they? When you say EVs are 💩. Is that based on your personal experience?

It's based on market data. Personal experience is only something EV Fluffers resort to.

Can you share the data please? Thanks.

UkraineIsFucked says

zzyzzx says

EV's need batteries that aren't proprietary and DIY replaceable, an

They need battery packs that aren't comprised of 2,000 distinct parts nor mineral content we can't mine enough of.

The EV Fluffers here don't seem to grasp that the rest of us are looking towards the future and scalability. They think things will scale as they have done so far.

The Tesla Sub-fluffers are even worse. 80% of EVs in the world are made in China. With cobalt. Yet Tesla fluffers see the EV world as being Tesla!

Our point is if anyone is going to buy an EV, buy a Tesla, not other brands, as the company is way ahead of the competitions when it comes to battery and technology. People buy other brands, then whine and bitch about it. People want to look “different” and pay the price. Then give all EVs a bad rep.

UkraineIsFucked says

It's based on market data. Personal experience is only something EV Fluffers resort to.

Ha ha!

"I don't need to use my own personal experience. Jim Cramer from CNBC told me....."

socal2 says

Ha ha!

"I don't need to use my own personal experience. Jim Cramer from CNBC told me....

Tesla Fluffer 'reasoning' ^^^^

Thanks for proving my point.

Eman says

Our point is if anyone is going to buy an EV, buy a Tesla,

Tesla Fluffing Example #2.

Herst is taking a bath because of the Teslas in their EV fleet. Didn't you even READ that article?

Oh, and the scaling problems with the industry don't magically exclude Tesla. But hey! Tesla Fluffers are gonna fluff. They can't admit they bought into the wrong side of history.

Ha ha! Wrong side of history? Tesla can't scale?

I am sure all the horse carriage companies were saying the same thing about Ford.

The Tesla Model Y is the best selling car in the entire freaking world. Tesla managed this despite spending 0 on advertising or promotions and suffering all the retarded and Leftists attacks on Elon and Tesla.

Tesla is also making industry record profit margins on every car they make even before government incentives. All the while the other auto OEM's are cratering and burdened with decades of union pension liabilities and outdated factories pumping out crappy ICE cars fewer people want.

https://x.com/spotted_model/status/1747030543412174964?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

UkraineIsFucked says

Eman says

Our point is if anyone is going to buy an EV, buy a Tesla,

Tesla Fluffing Example #2.

Herst is taking a bath because of the Teslas in their EV fleet. Didn't you even READ that article?

Oh, and the scaling problems with the industry don't magically exclude Tesla. But hey! Tesla Fluffers are gonna fluff. They can't admit they bought into the wrong side of history.

It seems like you have never owned a Tesla, or even an EV for that matter. The issue with Hertz taking a loss is not what you understand it to be. It’s alright. Time to move on.

Eman says

seems like you have never owned a Tesla, or even an EV for that matter. The issue with Hertz taking a loss is not what you understand it to be. It’s alright. Time to move on.

Tesla Fluffer Example #3. Like all the others, it is all about justifying your Tesla ownership. You can't argue on the facts/data. This one is ad hominem, too.

Wow. You make this too easy.

What amazes me Eman is how you tie your rep to socal2's. Talk about cutting off your own (Tesla tattooed, I am sure) street cred balls. << now THAT is how you deliver an ad hominem.

UkraineIsFucked says

You can't argue on the facts/data.

Let us know when you provide some "facts/data". Wookieman at least tries to provide his anecdotal experiences.

I (nor Eman?) are advocating for forced government adoption of EV's or even incentives. However, we will gladly take whatever incentive the Feds or California throws at us..........as I have personally paid enough State Income Tax to last a lifetime for most people.

What we are arguing is that Tesla is a superior product and continues to be one of the most profitable and fastest growing car companies in the world.

Enjoy driving your primitive ICE cars, owning a Tesla allows me to enjoy the benefits of driving a luxury sports car like a Porsche at half the price!

https://robertbryce.substack.com/p/my-us-senate-testimony-on-epas-ev

also electric vehicle batteries work best between 50 degrees and 110 degrees Fahrenheit

because of electrochemistry principles, battery efficiency drops off a lot below 38 degrees when i was on the solar electric vehicle team we would heat the batteries to around 90 degrees to ensure peak performance
.



.

socal2 says

Let us know when you provide some "facts/data".

I already did. You, as always, pretend I didn't or those facts don't exist because you can't handle reality that clashes with your fantasies. You do this with the Ukraine war, too.

socal2 says

I (nor Eman?) are advocating for forced government adoption of EV's or even incentives

Strawman. I never claimed that you did. But you defend it anyway while denying it

socal2 says

What we are arguing is that Tesla is a superior product and continues to be one of the most profitable and fastest growing car companies in the world.

No, you are not. You make stupid arguments about EVs, then assume EV = Tesla. And then it's all Tesla Fluffing. Like you are doing now.

socal2 says

Enjoy driving your primitive ICE cars, owning a Tesla allows me to enjoy the benefits of driving a luxury sports car like a Porsche at half the price!

^^^ Tesla Fluffing with a dash of snobbery. Not serious policy discussion.

Yo @Eman

This is what I was referring to. I am giving you this last opportunity to throw socal2 under the bus or be forever tarred with his shitty cred here on PatNet.

Eman says

Our point is if anyone is going to buy an EV, buy a Tesla, not other brands

What if I hate AWD and RWD? Tesla doesn't offer the vastly superior FWD format.

socal2 says

I am sure all the horse carriage companies were saying the same thing about Ford.

EVs are not different from ICEs as ICEs are different from horse drawn carriages.

But you just post logic-free 'horse shit' w/o a thought.

Yo @Eman ^^^ this is the 'horse drawn carriage' you are hitching your rep wagon to unless you denounce socal2's bs right here and now.

So when the AI apocalypse begins, just wait until mid January then there will be hell to pay.

If all of this tech shit can't stand up to abuse from small children, then how will it hold up to revolting adults?

socal2 says

, owning a Tesla allows me to enjoy the benefits of driving a luxury sports car like a Porsche at half the price!

Is that the way you see your Tesla?
They look like an over priced economy coupe that most every manufacturer makes. They remind me of a Sunbeam electric egg beater with the paddles removed.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/2793977/wheels-falling-off-forced-transition-to-electric-vehicles/

Putin's porn boy is having a moment and now demanding posters "denounce" me for articulating my first-hand views of the economics and joy of driving EV's for the last 5 years. Putin's porn boy seems to think his 2 minutes of Googling can somehow match my half decade experience. I've driven mediocre EV's (Chevy Bolt, Volt) and have driven the best (Tesla).

It is laughable how little you know about this (and many subjects). But you do you!

Meanwhile, I bought 10 more shares of Tesla during the dip this month. I am putting my money where my mouth is. I can't think of any other US based company that has the margin and growth potential as Tesla has including all of their AI, robotics and battery production.

socal2 says

Putin's porn boy is having a moment and now demanding posters "denounce" me for articulating my first-hand views of the economics and joy of driving EV's for the last 5 years. Putin's porn boy seems to think his 2 minutes of Googling can somehow match my half decade experience. I've driven mediocre EV's (Chevy Bolt, Volt) and have driven the best (Tesla).

It is laughable how little you know about this (and many subjects). But you do you!

Meanwhile, I bought 10 more shares of Tesla during the dip this month. I am putting my money where my mouth is. I can't think of any other US based company that has the margin and growth potential as Tesla has including all of their AI, robotics and battery production.

More Tesla Fluffing! He can't help himself. Like a mental disease or something.

Hey, did you trade in your horse drawn carriage when you bought your Snobbery Symbol?

What about you, @Eman? You're awfully quiet now that your buddy is going Full Metal Fluffer.

Who here at Patnet is arguing for a "forced transition" to EV's?

Can you use your own thoughts and logic and stop spamming us arguments that no one is making? No one is forcing anyone to buy a Tesla. Tesla has massive demand because word of mouth about the quality of their product.

I have personally gotten 3 referrals convincing Conservative truck guys and motor heads to buy Teslas simply by giving them test rides in my car.

What other car company (or any product company in history) can have this level of success without advertising? Let alone having the Media, Democrat Politicians, Unions, Woke retards, short-sellers, OPEC, Russia all against it?

People have a job you know. “Working” between 10:30am-12pm. Then lunch from 12pm to whenever and go home. Then exercise from when I’m home to 2-3pm…ish.

There’s life outside Patnet you know. 😂