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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   29,288 views  700 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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462   GNL   2024 Feb 23, 3:35pm  

The opposite of fugly...


463   Eman   2024 Feb 23, 3:40pm  

GNL says

Eman says


Just share a new idea to Patnetters in the hope of saving some people money on their car insurance.



https://x.com/mattwallace1701/status/1761067770563936439?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

You already know the answer...America is a shit show.

Like I said before, it’s a great community on X. People share what works and what doesn’t. We don’t have an expert, who knows everything, like someone on Patnet.

I thought the Cybertruck was fugly when it was revealed in Nov 2019 too, but some people really love it including celebrities. Cyber is the keyword for why it looks the way it looks IMO. The look has grown on me since, but I haven’t made the decision if I’m going to order one.
464   Eman   2024 Feb 23, 3:40pm  

GNL says

The opposite of fugly...




It’s a beautiful Mustang. Reminds me of gone in 60 seconds.
465   socal2   2024 Feb 23, 3:53pm  

Eman says

The car put a smile on their face every time they drive it. How much does that worth?


Absolutely this.
466   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Feb 23, 3:59pm  

richwicks says

When I was a kid, I didn't understand the disdain people had for "nerds" that were really interested in science and future technology. Now that I'm an adult engineer, I understand it completely, although I don't think people can explain their disdain, but they have this visceral gut feel that "this isn't good".

What do you think about this NYSE listed electric plane company? A relative of mine is touting their investment in it.

https://www.jobyaviation.com/
467   socal2   2024 Feb 23, 4:00pm  

Misc says

That means that for the other 49 states, on average they have 1% of the EV sales each.


MASSIVE sales potential for Tesla. Nothing but clear skies ahead.
469   GNL   2024 Feb 23, 7:13pm  

Eman says

Like I said before, it’s a great community on X. People share what works and what doesn’t.

Can you clarify please? Are you actually advising people to claim they're anything other than male or female? If so, you're putting $$ before reality, morality, truth, nature and last, but most certainly the most important, GOD.
470   richwicks   2024 Feb 23, 7:52pm  

GNL says

Eman says


Like I said before, it’s a great community on X. People share what works and what doesn’t.

Can you clarify please? Are you actually advising people to claim they're anything other than male or female? If so, you're putting $$ before reality, morality, truth, nature and last, but most certainly the most important, GOD.


Yes, just like every government and corporation does. It's not like you're going to overthrow the government though or boycott the companies.
471   Eman   2024 Feb 23, 9:40pm  

GNL says

Eman says


Like I said before, it’s a great community on X. People share what works and what doesn’t.

Can you clarify please? Are you actually advising people to claim they're anything other than male or female? If so, you're putting $$ before reality, morality, truth, nature and last, but most certainly the most important, GOD.

I guess you’re being sarcastic? In case you’re not, it’s a community that shares experiences on EVs and solar. From reading these and personal experience, I know my next EV purchase will either be a SUV or a truck. It will be a Tesla or a Rivian. Rivian is coming out with a R2 compact SUV version for $45-50k….likely to compete with the model Y. Given Rivian can use Tesla superchargers starting 2025, this makes it a very viable candidate. The biggest hang up is whether the company will survive in the next couple years. The CEO said the company will become profitable in Q4. If they do, it’s a go for me. I’m rooting for them.
472   Eman   2024 Feb 23, 9:46pm  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says







When I first came to the US, I loved the Camaro Iroc Z. The seller wanted $8k for a slight used, low mileage, in mint condition car. I was a HS kid with no money. Happened to see another guy driving a Camaro with the license plate frame “Pony Killer”. 🤣
473   REpro   2024 Feb 23, 10:08pm  

Patrick says





Love it.
I like to apply reverse look to judge and understand a new situation.
474   WookieMan   2024 Feb 24, 1:29am  

Eman says

$20k-$50k more expensive than what? An equivalent car with an equivalent performance?

Can it go 400 miles on a single charge? Nope. Can it tow anything? Nope. Can it fit a family of 5 and luggage? Nope. I'm talking any model of Tesla. The truck can tow but you'll be lucky to get 150 miles out of it if that and have to unhook the trailer at most charging stations. Most normal people will dive 200-300 miles on a typical weekend camping trip with the trailer. You just added over an hour to your travel time. 3 turned into probably 5 hour to make it there with cyber truck

I don't need acceleration and can spend $20-50k less for a similar or bigger car. You haven't made a valid argument besides acceleration. That's literally what you dropped $20k more on and will pay more on it in the long run. There is no gas savings when you factor in the cost of the car itself and higher insurance rates. Then factor in you'll need 220v power to your garage or outside. That's wire, permits and an electrician. Another probably $3k-5k. I'd rather invest $20-50k in something that grows instead of depreciates. The returns on that would be better than buying a Tesla and not paying gas.

There's no argument. You want acceleration at a loss of probably $6-7k per year versus an ICE hybrid that can be all electric on your commute, but also take you 400 miles and can fuel up in 5 minutes. I'm basing this off other Tesla owners. I'm not just making shit up. All modern models drive fine for what you need. Just admit you guys overpaid on a Tesla over an ICE hybrid for acceleration reasons.

And you still have the blinders on for the future of EV's. Especially CA. There's a chance you might not be able to charge them if it gets hot. You need more oil to build an EV via mining rare earth minerals and shipping them across the ocean. I'm confused why you two keep defending them like it's cheaper. It's not. And won't be. And again, trust me, government is coming after you for fees and they won't be small.
475   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 5:15am  

Eman says

I guess you’re being sarcastic?

I just was unsure whether or not you were advising claiming to be nonbinary in order to save on insurance costs.
476   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 5:17am  

Eman says


Al_Sharpton_for_President says








When I first came to the US, I loved the Camaro Iroc Z. The seller wanted $8k for a slight used, low mileage, in mint condition car. I was a HS kid with no money. Happened to see another guy driving a Camaro with the license plate frame “Pony Killer”. 🤣


My first car was a brand new red 1987 Mustang GT with a T-top. It only took me 3 days to get my first ticket...$500.
477   WookieMan   2024 Feb 24, 6:06am  

Never got the speed thing. Sure I have 2 tickets for 10 over from ass hole cops by age 18. But I was never a speeder and am not now. I guess it's a thing for some guys and even gals. And I'm not a tame human if you meet me. I just don't like to get in trouble and deal with the law. So I just hit cruise control at the speed limit. Stay in the right lane. Leave early. 25 years of clean driving and I've still done some stupid things. But they'd have no reason to pull me over. I make it that way.

I just don't get the infatuation with cars. Mine is solely for utility. Can haul a family of 5 and up to 7 in comfort. Can tow 9k lbs. 4 wheel drive. Was cheaper than any Tesla model... Or Porsche... Or BMW.... Or Audi ... Or Lexus.... Cheaper to do maintenance on. Lower insurance because it's a cheaper car. Can go 400 miles on a tank of gas and fill up in 5 min.

I'd rather have a semi comfortable car, but some good tunes on and just roll. I don't want all the things that break that cost $$$. 230k miles and working like a champ. $250/mo in gas. No car payment. It would take a decade to mathematically pay off a Tesla sedan even with free electric. For now. Will be longer in the future.
478   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Feb 24, 7:09am  

The Toyota GR86 and its Subaru counterpart, the BRZ, are highly rated fun sports cars and extremely low cost. Comes in a manual, too.






479   WookieMan   2024 Feb 24, 7:14am  

Those are cool looking cars. I'll give it that. But does no one have kids on this site??? These, including Tesla are totally unpractical or mid life crisis purchases. That's all Tesla owners i know in IL. 40-55 and just wanted a senseless car that costs more than an ICE hybrid or straight up ICE.
480   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 8:59am  

I drive a Camry. Great cars. I hope to get 300,000 miles out of it. Every mechanic I've spoken to says it's highly likely that I will.

I consider 60s era restomods as art. Some people see beauty in different things...paintings, furniture, houses, jewelry, vases etc.
481   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 9:20am  

Just scroll this page. Restomods are unique, beautiful and hold value.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=restomod&ko=-1&iax=images&ia=images
482   socal2   2024 Feb 24, 9:22am  

Eman says

The biggest hang up is whether the company will survive in the next couple years. The CEO said the company will become profitable in Q4. If they do, it’s a go for me. I’m rooting for them.


This chart is sobering for most EV makers and especially Rivian. Also clearly shows how amazing Tesla has been at scaling.


483   socal2   2024 Feb 24, 9:33am  

WookieMan says

Never got the speed thing


I don't really speed above the limit, I just accelerate to the speed limit as fast as possible at every opportunity. With a Tesla, you can do that without making loud engine noise, burning your tires out or smoking your brakes. You can have so much fun driving aggressively (legally) and doing it stealthy without being an obnoxious douche and waking up the neighborhood.

IT NEVER GETS OLD. At least for me.

That, and I have tons of hills and fun roads to drive on in my area. Can't stand climbing hills in my wife's Hyundai as it downshifts and struggles...
484   Eman   2024 Feb 24, 10:46am  

GNL says

Eman says



Al_Sharpton_for_President says









When I first came to the US, I loved the Camaro Iroc Z. The seller wanted $8k for a slight used, low mileage, in mint condition car. I was a HS kid with no money. Happened to see another guy driving a Camaro with the license plate frame “Pony Killer”. 🤣



My first car was a brand new red 1987 Mustang GT with a T-top. It only took me 3 days to get my first ticket...$500.


This was my first car. It was a 1-ton truck. The ride was so rough/bouncy. My dad paid $1k for it. Color was burgundy/brownish. There were dents allover the truck. Met my wife (GF then) when I was still driving it. I love my wife who stuck with me through the thick and thin. Now, we can afford almost any car we want.

My older sister is on her 3rd or 4th Camry now. Extremely reliable car. Her next car will be a Tesla model Y she said.


485   Eman   2024 Feb 24, 10:50am  

socal2 says

WookieMan says


Never got the speed thing


I don't really speed above the limit, I just accelerate to the speed limit as fast as possible at every opportunity. With a Tesla, you can do that without making loud engine noise, burning your tires out or smoking your brakes. You can have so much fun driving aggressively (legally) and doing it stealthy without being an obnoxious douche and waking up the neighborhood.

IT NEVER GETS OLD. At least for me.

That, and I have tons of hills and fun roads to drive on in my area. Can't stand climbing hills in my wife's Hyundai as it downshifts and struggles...

Yup, the instant torque is addictive. It never gets old, and it puts a smile on our face every time we drive it. Going up the hills, dead stop and we can just zoom off the moment we can go again without any struggles. Being able to zip in stealth mode is fun. NoMoICE.
486   Eman   2024 Feb 24, 11:13am  

Edmunds revised their article after getting called out.



Eman says

Like Business Insider, Edmunds got caught with bad journalism. MSM knows anything relates to Tesla and/ot Elon will generate tons of clicks. Was it an honest mistake, or was it a click bait? 🤷‍♂️

https://x.com/niccruzpatane/status/1761043723545153583?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q
487   HeadSet   2024 Feb 24, 6:14pm  

Eman says

There were dents allover the truck. Met my wife (GF then) when I was still driving it.

Well, like the song says, "There's something women love about a pickup man."
488   GNL   2024 Feb 24, 7:15pm  

Show me any car on the market today more beautiful than this restomod. A car like this is as reliable as a car made in 2024 and will feel like a modern one too.


490   HeadSet   2024 Feb 24, 7:42pm  

GNL says

Show me any car on the market today more beautiful than this restomod. A car like this is as reliable as a car made in 2024 and will feel like a modern one too.




Gorgeous, but I would love to see that fad of oversize rims go away.
491   stereotomy   2024 Feb 24, 8:59pm  

Besides, it reeks of being "stanced."

Wanna bet it's -5 camber on the rear wheels?
492   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 5:42am  

The stance is perfect. Ever notice how tiny the wheel/tire combo were on these original cars? This is a huge improvement. A great restomod has almost every part improved. Sometimes even the original body has subtle and expensive styling improvements.
493   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Feb 25, 6:02am  

Eman says


Yup, the instant torque is addictive

What’s the skidpad and weight distribution? I used to own a Miata. Not fast but perfectly balanced with a decent skidpad - taking curves was a blast, especially with the manual trans.
494   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:18am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Eman says



Yup, the instant torque is addictive

What’s the skidpad and weight distribution? I used to own a Miata. Not fast but perfectly balanced with a decent skidpad - taking curves was a blast, especially with the manual trans.

“In addition to its near 50/50 weight distribution, Model 3 was also designed with an extremely low polar moment of inertia, which means that its heaviest components are located closer to the car’s center of gravity.”

https://www.tesla.com/blog/model-3-lowest-probability-injury-any-vehicle-ever-tested-nhtsa

“Not a believer? Floor it from a stop and try a few 30-to-50-mph pulls. This is a car that flirts with 1 g both on the skidpad, with a 0.96 g effort, and in gut-punching acceleration. An over-the-air update that was delivered back in 2019 promised a 5 percent increase of power to all Model 3s, and the Performance will pin you back in the seat like a supercar.”

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36329678/2019-tesla-model-3-performance-by-the-numbers/

Thanks for the question. I had no idea what skidpad was. I would wait for the new model 3 performance to be released in a few months. The reviews for the new model 3 have been amazing.
495   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:23am  

I drove a Miata for a few days during my W2 days. My BIL borrowed my truck and gave me his Miata to commute to work then. Small fun little car to drive, but it seemed unstable once I hit 85-90 mph.

My neighbor had a Miata for the longest time. Now, he drives a model 3.
496   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:29am  

GNL says

Show me any car on the market today more beautiful than this restomod. A car like this is as reliable as a car made in 2024 and will feel like a modern one too.




I’m a consumer. I see an old car, and I see nothing but troubles. 😅

If money were not an option, I would like a Lambo Aventador, or a Ferrari SF90 or a McLaren 720S. The picture doesn’t do justice but I saw 3 of them yesterday on the freeway. These would be fun and status cars. Tesla….? 😂 everyone and their mother drive one here in the Bay Area.


497   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 8:34am  

Wife took the photo. I told her should we get one for our garage? She said nooo. I’m setting her up so when I can get the Tesla Roadster at a fraction of the cost with much much lower maintenance cost when the time comes. 🤣


498   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Feb 25, 8:47am  

Eman says

unstable once I hit 85-90 mph.

I think “darty" is the word. :>))
499   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 9:20am  

GNL says

I consider 60s era restomods as art. Some people see beauty in different things...paintings, furniture, houses, jewelry, vases etc.

I like old cars and agree with you. There are cool nostalgic cars for sure. I don't like it, but my neighbor has the wood station wagon. Makes me smile every time I see it.

My thing is spending more money on fast cars makes zero sense in my world. Speeding is illegal and reckless for you and others on the road. I've had a few friends injured or die in wrecks where they were driving like idiots.

And if my grammar and typing are off today I was out till 3am. Fun night.
500   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 9:36am  

Eman says

socal2 says

WookieMan says

Never got the speed thing

I don't really speed above the limit, I just accelerate to the speed limit as fast as possible at every opportunity. With a Tesla, you can do that without making loud engine noise, burning your tires out or smoking your brakes. You can have so much fun driving aggressively (legally) and doing it stealthy without being an obnoxious douche and waking up the neighborhood.

IT NEVER GETS OLD. At least for me.

That, and I have tons of hills and fun roads to drive on in my area. Can't stand climbing hills in my wife's Hyundai as it downshifts and struggles...

Yup, the instant torque is addictive. It never gets old, and it puts a smile on our face every time we drive it. Going up the hills, dead stop and we can just zoom off the moment we can go again without any struggles. Being able to zip in stealth mode is fun. NoMoICE.

Check out your laws. Accelerating fast will get you pulled over even if not speeding even if tires aren't squealing or a loud engine. It's dangerous and that's not really an argument. You shouldn't do it. No one can hear the car either. I don't understand how anyone could think that's responsible driving? And CA drivers are notoriously bad as I've personally witnessed during my visits. Like really bad. Worst state I've driven in.

Enjoy the day you hit a kid going 0-40mph in 1 second. It's a when not if situation. Especially in CA. But hey, overpaying $20k+ plus for a depreciating vehicle is the smart thing to do... lol. I'll take my savings and invest it, cover my gas and laugh at the EV owners all day. It's a mid life crisis purchase. Just own it. Used to be a Corvette. That's what you're driving. I just rent what I want and don't have to deal with higher insurance and hassle. It's like owning a boat.
501   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 11:37am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

Eman says



Yup, the instant torque is addictive

What’s the skidpad and weight distribution? I used to own a Miata. Not fast but perfectly balanced with a decent skidpad - taking curves was a blast, especially with the manual trans.

Go give the existing model 3 a demo drive. It’s free. Nothing to lose if you don’t like it. The model 3 performance is coming soon. It will sell like hot cakes IMO. I’ll likely drop $55k to buy it. It’ll be my new daily drive.

https://x.com/sawyermerritt/status/1761802489626521930?s=46&t=5lEEPaezr6Ic-W4Z6huZ5Q

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