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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ


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2022 Dec 26, 9:49am   52,254 views  778 comments

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Not So Fast on Electric Cars - WSJ

Allysia FinleyDec. 25, 2022 6:20 pm ET

Toyota’s CEO delivers a timely warning, and many states echo it.

Toyota CEO Akio Toyoda recently caused the climate lobby to blow a fuse by speaking a truth about battery electric vehicles that his fellow auto executives dare not. “Just like the fully autonomous cars that we were all supposed to be driving by now,” Mr. Toyoda said in Thailand, “I think BEVs are just going to take longer to become mainstream than the media would like us to believe.” He added that a “silent majority” in the auto industry share his view, “but they think it’s the trend, so they can’t speak out loudly.”
The Biden administration seems to believe that millions of Americans will rush out to buy electric vehicles if only the government throws enough subsidies at them. Last year’s infrastructure bill included $7.5 billion in grants for states to expand their charging networks. But it’s a problem when even the states are warning the administration that electric vehicles aren’t ready to go mainstream.

Maine notes in a plan submitted to the Federal Highway Administration this summer that “cold temperatures will remain a top challenge” for adoption, since “cold weather reduces EV range and increases charging times.” When temperatures drop to 5 degrees Fahrenheit, the cars achieve only 54% of their quoted range. A vehicle that’s supposed to be able to go 250 miles between charges will make it only 135 miles on average. At 32 degrees—a typical winter day in much of the country—a Tesla Model 3 that in ideal conditions can go 282 miles between charges will make it only 173 miles.
Imagine if the 100 million Americans who took to the road over the holidays were driving electric cars. How many would have been stranded as temperatures plunged? There wouldn’t be enough tow trucks—or emergency medics—for people freezing in their cars.
The Transportation Department is requiring states to build charging stations every 50 miles along interstate highways and within a mile of off-ramps to reduce the likelihood of these scenarios. But most state electrical grids aren’t built to handle this many charging stations and will thus require expensive upgrades. Illinois, for one, warns of “challenges related to sufficient electric grid capacity, particularly in rural areas of the state.”

Charging stations in rural areas with little traffic are also unlikely to be profitable and could become “stranded assets,” as many states warn. Wyoming says out-of-state traffic from non-Tesla electric vehicles would have to increase 100-fold to cover charger costs under the administration’s rules. Tesla has already scoped out premier charging locations for its proprietary network. Good luck to competitors.

New Mexico warns that “poor station maintenance can lead to stations being perpetually broken and unusable, particularly in rural or hard to access locations. If an EV charging station is built in an area without electrical capacity and infrastructure to support its use, it will be unusable until the appropriate upgrades are installed.”

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Arizona says “private businesses may build and operate a station if a grant pays for the first five years of operations and maintenance” but might abandon the project if it later proves unprofitable. Many other states echo this concern, noting that federal funds could result in stranded assets.

The administration aims to build 500,000 stations, but states will likely have to spend their own money to keep them running. Like other federal inducements, these grants may entice states to assume what could become huge financial liabilities.

Federal funds also come with many rules, including “buy America” procurement requirements, which demand that chargers consist of mostly U.S.-made components. New Jersey says these could “delay implementation by several years” since only a few manufacturers can currently meet them. New York also says it will be challenging to comply with the web of federal rules, including the National Environmental Policy Act, the Americans with Disabilities Act, the Uniform Relocation Assistance and Real Property Acquisition Policies Act of 1970, and a 1960 federal law that bars charging stations in rest areas.

Oh, and labor rules. The administration requires that electrical workers who install and maintain the stations be certified by the union-backed Electric Vehicle Infrastructure Training Program. New Mexico says much of the state lacks contractors that meet this mandate, which will reduce competition and increase costs.

Technical problems abound too. Virginia says fast-charging hardware “has a short track record” and is “prone to malfunctions.” Equipment “previously installed privately in Virginia has had a high failure rate shown in user comments and reports on social media,” and “even compatibility with credit card readers has been unexpectedly complicated.”

A study this spring led by University of California researchers found that more than a quarter of public direct-current fast-charging stations in the San Francisco Bay Area were unusable. Drivers will be playing roulette every time they head to a station. If all this weren’t disconcerting enough, Arizona warns cyber vulnerabilities could compromise customer financial transactions, charging infrastructure, electric vehicles and the grid.

Politicians and auto makers racing to eliminate the internal-combustion engine are bound to crash into technological, logistic and financial realities, as Mr. Toyoda warned. The casualties will be taxpayers, but the administration doesn’t seem to care.


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506   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 12:18pm  

Eman says

The EV will let you know how much battery life is left so you don't get stranded. Unlike a golf cart, if it’s about to die due to technical reason, it will let you know too.

I swear you're a liar at this point dude. I know Tesla. They're not bad. This is the current state of my golf cart...

You own a golf cart that has no utility. Only works in a city. Just own it. It accelerates fast for a 35-45mph speed limit. That cost $20-50k more than a similar car... I don't get this conversation. I'm not the smartest person in the room, but in this case at no point has anyone proven me wrong.
507   WookieMan   2024 Feb 25, 12:20pm  

A BMS is basic at this point and it works on most or all lithium batteries. Tesla is not something new. These existed before.
508   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 12:35pm  

Eman says

I see an old car, and I see nothing but troubles.

It's because you simply don't know or understand what's possible to achieve with these vehicles and the huge market built around this hobby.
509   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 12:39pm  

I said “technical” reason. You’re not part of the Tesla community where people share issues they have had with their cars. Sometimes, Tesla would notify people the issue before it even happened and had it fixed.

Calling me a liar without any proof while you’re admitting you’re a liar. 🙄
510   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 12:42pm  

GNL says

Eman says


I see an old car, and I see nothing but troubles.

It's because you simply don't know or understand what's possible to achieve with these vehicles and the huge market built around this hobby.

That’s why I don’t have an appreciation for them. I’m a consumer, and I want trouble free cars. Owned a few MBZ, and I’ll never buy them again. Other than they’re safe when an accident occurs, they’re costly to maintain especially after 100k miles….at least from my personal experience. My buddy used to own Bimmers and Audi, and he’s done with them too.
511   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 12:44pm  

Eman says

I’m a consumer, and I want trouble free cars.

Again, you're missing it. These vehicles are trouble free.
512   HeadSet   2024 Feb 25, 1:00pm  

Eman says

Wife took the photo. I told her should we get one for our garage? She said nooo. I’m setting her up so when I can get the Tesla Roadster at a fraction of the cost with much much lower maintenance cost when the time comes.

Maybe she wants her pickup man back, and is playing you to get an old, dented truck.
513   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 3:29pm  

GNL says


Eman says


I’m a consumer, and I want trouble free cars.

Again, you're missing it. These vehicles are trouble free.


I didn’t grow up with them so I don’t know them. Also, I don’t know how to fix cars other than oil change and repair flat tires.

My 1987, 1999 and 2003 trucks were relatively trouble free. The 1999, 2003 and 2007 MBZ started to cost money for maintenance after 100k miles. Over $1.2k each year just for maintenance. Some random crap keeps popping up. Only time, a “manifold” needed to be replaced and that was $2.5k. Oil change was $560 each time from the dealer when the cars were still under warranty. They were still several hundred dollars with outside shops once warranty was over.

The 2017 MDX was trouble free during our 5 years of ownership. Model S has been relatively trouble free. The X had a couple hiccups. Tesla gave us a loaner each time for a couple weeks while they ordered parts. Wife doesn’t seem to mind and still loves her X.
514   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 3:38pm  

Eman says

I didn’t grow up with them so I don’t know them. Also, I don’t know how to fix cars other than oil change and repair flat tires.

Did you grow up with EVs? There's an entire industry surrounding these types of vehicles...for repairs and maintenance just like any other car. They're beautiful, hold their value and all of them are 1 offs.
515   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 3:42pm  

HeadSet says

Eman says


Wife took the photo. I told her should we get one for our garage? She said nooo. I’m setting her up so when I can get the Tesla Roadster at a fraction of the cost with much much lower maintenance cost when the time comes.

Maybe she wants her pickup man back, and is playing you to get an old, dented truck.

😂

My next truck will likely be decided by my daughter and not my wife. Kids in the Bay Area seem to love Tesla. Kind of like the majority of people in Silicon Valley use Apple products. If my daughter decides it will be the Cybertruck.

Tesla car owners who switched to Rivian love their R1T and R1S. Rivian had some hiccups on the outset too, but they have remedied those issues. A dentist friend sold his Tesla S, bought the R1S and has been happy with it.
516   Eman   2024 Feb 25, 3:48pm  

GNL says

Eman says


I didn’t grow up with them so I don’t know them. Also, I don’t know how to fix cars other than oil change and repair flat tires.

Did you grow up with EVs? There's an entire industry surrounding these types of vehicles...for repairs and maintenance just like any other car. They're beautiful, hold their value and all of them are 1 offs.

Good point. I guess no one in my sphere is driving/owning these cars. No one talks about them. Classic cars is another world I know nothing about. I’ve been learning a lot about EVs all these years, but nothing about classic cars. The classic car industry should step up their marketing campaigns.
517   GNL   2024 Feb 25, 4:02pm  

Classic cars aren't a corporation. A group of investors (classic cars are also an investment), collectors and enthusiasts basically make up the market. Reggie Jackson is one of the most famous collectors and started collecting at the perfect time...when hardly anyone was thinking about them.

Maybe some of the first EVs will be worth millions some day?
519   Eman   2024 Feb 26, 2:26pm  

GNL says

Classic cars aren't a corporation. A group of investors (classic cars are also an investment), collectors and enthusiasts basically make up the market. Reggie Jackson is one of the most famous collectors and started collecting at the perfect time...when hardly anyone was thinking about them.

Maybe some of the first EVs will be worth millions some day?

I don’t see how it can happen, but I’m not a classic car guy. The original Roadster was built on the Lotus platform. Several years ago, Tesla made an offer to upgrade the battery for $8k. New cars have better tech, battery and battery management system. Classic cars are likely less complicated so less issues?
520   AD   2024 Feb 27, 1:20pm  

(Bloomberg) -- Apple Inc. is canceling a decadelong effort to build an electric car, according to people with knowledge of the matter, abandoning one of the most ambitious projects in the history of the company.

Apple made the disclosure internally Tuesday, surprising the nearly 2,000 employees working on the project, said the people, who asked not to be identified because the announcement wasn’t public. The decision was shared by Chief Operating Officer Jeff Williams and Kevin Lynch, a vice president in charge of the effort, according to the people.
521   AD   2024 Feb 27, 1:28pm  

I read that Apple is using the savings from cancelling its EV program for its AI development.
523   DOGEWontAmountToShit   2024 Feb 28, 12:16pm  

RWSGFY says






It would be banned.

....oh wait
525   WookieMan   2024 Feb 29, 5:06am  

As GNL has pointed out, old cars are art to an extent. Still fun to drive. I'm a utility guy with a family. So maybe post kids I'd get a fun car. For now it's non-minivan SUV's that can tow at least 6k lbs without worry and hold 7 passengers.

I think most here either don't have kids or they are adult aged at this point. So my perspective on vehicles is different. I also want a car that can stand up in a wreck. I don't care about Tesla's safety rating. A bigger car will always be safer.
526   Onvacation   2024 Feb 29, 5:15am  

socal2 says

Apparently there is a "boat mode" where the battery can seal itself to protect it from water.

More like submarine mode. Those cars don't float.
529   GNL   2024 Feb 29, 5:51pm  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says



https://www.naplesmotorsports.com/used-vehicle-1965-roadster-shelby-cobra-replica-classic-c-3497

Yeah, I like these and always have. I grew up in a small town in MD. When I was about 12 or so, I remember going to an auto shop with my dad and out back I saw one of these in terrible condition. I have always wondered if it was a real one or not. Most of these are kit cars. But, of course, they can be built real nice and with all the most modern components.
530   GNL   2024 Feb 29, 5:53pm  

Eman says





Ok, that looks at least a little better. Eman, you gonna slam it when you buy it? You know what slamming means, correct?
531   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Feb 29, 7:55pm  

There was an article in the WSJ this week about a family who took their Tesla on a cross country drive that included a drive across 299. Got a damaged tire near Weaverville and were stranded there. No spare on board that hipster car, and no spare Tesla tires to be had far and wide in that part of California. It was a major hassle for them that ruined their trip.
533   WookieMan   2024 Mar 1, 1:16am  

B.A.C.A.H. says

There was an article in the WSJ this week about a family who took their Tesla on a cross country drive that included a drive across 299. Got a damaged tire near Weaverville and were stranded there. No spare on board that hipster car, and no spare Tesla tires to be had far and wide in that part of California. It was a major hassle for them that ruined their trip.

Yeah. Can't do road trips with Teslas at all. Would be a major mistake. You need an ICE vehicle or rent one. Tesla is a commuter car. That's why I call them golf carts. That why gas carts on golf courses are more popular despite the noise. It has gas in it or it doesn't... I prefer electric carts golfing, but for whatever reason if I'm autistic or something and the noise of gas cart literally make me angry.

Also, I think once Cyber Truck is sold out, EV market is going to plummet. Reach market saturation. If they're quality cars they'll last a long time. My golf cart will last 10 years on the battery. There's no point in getting a new model unless it's for status for Tesla. And I don't care what you say Eman about CA. It is a status thing and a "green" thing even though it's not.

Either way I know the electric game. I tinker on mine all the time. Take it to get the mail daily (have a CBU). EV's are just not practical long distance vehicles. The semi Musk is designing is going to cost a fortune in a low margin business of transport. And a loss of time charging. The truck will be off the road 20-30% more than diesel trucks. Poof. Profits gone. No trucker is gonna wanna touch it if they're paid by mile and their wife Karen is back home fucking the neighbor. He should just stick to sedans and call it a day. Cyber Truck will be a flop because it cannot tow any distance. Almost no one hooks up a camper to go 40 miles. Because that's all you get with a 6k lbs trailer/camper.
534   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Mar 1, 3:37am  

GNL says


Most of these are kit cars.

Yes, really sweet looking replica. And I can see plunking down close to $100k for it. But if that were the case, why not go for the updated real thing?


535   GNL   2024 Mar 1, 5:11am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

GNL says



Most of these are kit cars.

Yes, really sweet looking replica. And I can see plunking down close to $100k for it. But if that were the case, why not go for the updated real thing?




So many options to choose from, amiright? Yes, I love the new corvette. I think they're going to do even more with them. The first models always end up looking a little plain with each new iteration. I still like restomods most.
536   socal2   2024 Mar 1, 7:47am  

WookieMan says

Yeah. Can't do road trips with Teslas at all. Would be a major mistake.


I take my Model Y to Las Vegas, Phoenix, Northern California and Utah frequently. Anything further requires a flight. Tesla Superchargers for 15 minute stops are everywhere. Tesla is adding a new charger in North America every hour now.


537   Eman   2024 Mar 1, 7:58am  

socal2 says

WookieMan says


Yeah. Can't do road trips with Teslas at all. Would be a major mistake.


I take my Model Y to Las Vegas, Phoenix, Northern California and Utah frequently. Anything further requires a flight. Tesla Superchargers for 15 minute stops are everywhere. Tesla is adding a new charger in North America every hour now.




You’re wasting your time. People will believe what they want to believe even though they don’t own it and don’t know much about it.

Hollywood celebrities are buying Cybertruck. Who would have thought? I didn’t see it either TBH. I thought it was a fugly truck myself when it was unveil, but I put in the reservation anyway. Then got an email from Tesla to design mine on 12/26. Such a huge premium for the Foundation Series so I’m holding out. 😂
538   Eman   2024 Mar 1, 8:01am  

@socal2,

Since Teslas don’t have a spare tire, I have a pump and a tire repair kit in each Tesla. You never know. Cheap insurance.
539   Eman   2024 Mar 1, 8:08am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says


GNL says


Most of these are kit cars.

Yes, really sweet looking replica. And I can see plunking down close to $100k for it. But if that were the case, why not go for the updated real thing?




Why would you drop $100k on a fast car that can only carry 2 persons? Why not buy a used SUV that can carry 7 persons and tow stuff? You know it’s just a matter of when, not if, that you’re going to hit some kid in a fast car. Is this a midlife crisis purchase or a small dick syndrome? 😂

I woke up this morning and felt kind of being funny. Must be Friday. 😂
540   ForcedTQ   2024 Mar 1, 8:17am  

Al_Sharpton_for_President says

GNL says



Most of these are kit cars.

Yes, really sweet looking replica. And I can see plunking down close to $100k for it. But if that were the case, why not go for the updated real thing?




Huh? That white C8 Corvette isn’t a new version of the 1960’s AC Cobra. You can buy new versions “continuation cars” with CSX6000 and up vins of the Cobra now.
541   B.A.C.A.H.   2024 Mar 1, 8:35am  

Eman says


I have a pump and a tire repair kit in each Tesla.

That's a good plan for a flat, not so good for a damaged tire.

from "The Day Our Tesla Inflated" by Rikka Fountain. WSJ page A13 February 27:

"...our high performance Tesla uses high performance tires... those tires can be days away outside a major population center... we could have bought the car with a full size replacement, but that would have left no room for luggage...the tire wasn't patchable..."
542   WookieMan   2024 Mar 1, 10:59am  

That is one of the other problems with Teslas I actually don't hammer on either. They're ugly. Small. At least for a taller guy. Not sure about other EV's as Tesla is the only one I've driven.

They're also advertising on YouTube like gangbusters. They've reached market saturation. I've never seen ads ever. I like older or big cars that guzzle gas. I have my townie cart and I'm good.
543   Al_Sharpton_for_President   2024 Mar 1, 2:11pm  

ForcedTQ says


Huh? That white C8 Corvette isn’t a new version of the 1960’s AC Cobra.

Dang, I was confusing it with a 1950’s Stingray. You are correct, sir!
544   GNL   2024 Mar 1, 2:28pm  

ForcedTQ says

continuation cars

Yep, here's a place you can purchase them. Expensive.
https://revologycars.com/
This is considered a brand new car because it was JUST built from scratch. EVERY part of it.


545   GNL   2024 Mar 1, 2:30pm  

I would think this would fuck up the entire classic car market. Evidently, people/companies resurected the tools/molds etc to make every part. Now you can get a brand new one. If you can build NEW of the most rare cars, how can they keep their value? Hmm, not sure how long they've been doing this but, $338,000 for the one pictured above. Please.

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