patrick.net

Patrick says

DeficitHawk says

Industry can't be sustained with demographics like that. We will have 'lost decades' period like Japan.

I've been to Japan and will take such a homogenous but high-trust society over the horrors that "diversity" has inflicted on the US any day. It's obviously very prosperous and safe even now.

They key is that they care about each other because they are all Japanese. And their industry is clearly still working fine.

The biggest impediment to family formation in the US is the cost of a house, pumped up by the greed of boomers and directly counterproductive policies like the mortgage interest deduction.

Family formation is the problem with illegals. They block it. If my kid gets a $15-20/hr job at 14, he's going to have a lot of cash by 22. Hooks up with another like minded chick that works and they can buy a house easily. Starter home but condos and and small houses to start are $200k in much of the country.

I agree with the Japanese society. But it's hard for young people to get a job because cash paid illegals are cheaper than American kids. Illegals are not taking $200k/yr jobs. Maybe some that overstayed a visa but that's rare. We have a problem with many 16-20 year olds that can't go to school and pull in $20k. Wife and I were pulling in $60k, rented and then bought a two flat for $325k at 22-23.

There were not remotely as many illegal back then. People always say Obama deported the most, but they were still incoming throughout his terms. You have to reverse the net inflow or it doesn't much matter. 2k entry level jobs getting sucked up is 2k less jobs Americans have. This doesn't effect 40 year old men or women. If you can't get any skills at a young age, even blue collar, you're likely screwed.

WookieMan says

Illegals destroy the drive of younger generation willing to work for less and ship it back home. Go work at home.

I guess everyone has to have their boogeyman to blame.

I think the younger generations suffer economically for a different reason... Demographics. The boomers are a huge cohort, now drawing on society instead of contributing. Social security and Medicare are BY FAR our largest public expenditures are distributed across a smaller taxpayer base while the largest cohort are moving into retirement. I dont hate boomers, they didnt ASK to be born in a large cohort... but that demographic pressure is very real. The older generations have left a huge debt interest payment behind for the younger generations to deal with, and I do blame them for that.

I've worked elbow to elbow with immigrants in a few different industries over the years. It never made me lose sight of the value of work or be unable to find a job.

Patrick says

The biggest impediment to family formation in the US is the cost of a house, pumped up by the greed of boomers and directly counterproductive policies like the mortgage interest deduction.

This, I agree with.

Patrick says

I've been to Japan and will take such a homogenous but high-trust society over the horrors that "diversity" has inflicted on the US any day. It's obviously very prosperous and safe even now.

Its true that Japanese culture has much more value for adherence to law, crime is very low and there is trust. You can send your kids out on the street and trust they wont get abducted. Its very remarkable and it IS cultural. USA has never had that. Our recorded history is outcasts and immigrants founding colonies, fighting native populations for land/resources, revolution against our prior colonial power, wild west, slavery and civil war, etc. The divisions and distrust in our society runs deep. I dont agree with the narrative that Mexican immigrants arriving in the past 50 years are responsible for this cultural difference. The differences are much more deeply rooted in our societies history and founding.

Id be very interested in a proposal to make America like Japan in this regard. But I dont agree that deporting Mexicans will have that outcome.

As far as the lost decades, Japan did have severe economic challenges for decades. Entire rural regions are abandoned with empty houses as the smaller population has consolidated into the cities to keep the factories running. Lots of towns in rural Japan have only a few retirees and no kids, and schools are shut down. Japan has started to increase immigration to combat this trend.

DeficitHawk says

I guess everyone has to have their boogeyman to blame.

Not a boogeyman at all. There are younger people out there that want to work if they have decent parents. Stuff like landscaping. Illegals pack 20 in a house, take those jobs for less than minimum wage. I'm not sure what your reality is.

Your writing leads me to believe you're a professor type. You know what illegals do, make you go to college because there's nothing else for a kid to do. Instead they could be learning some plumbing, electric, etc in high school. Nope, the illegals took those jobs.

The business owners need to be held accountable for sure, but illegals bankrupt young people before they even have a chance. That's my point and it's 1,000% valid. What we get in return is a bunch of half assed educated college graduates with shit degrees and $100k of debt. They could have been working and couldn't. It's not that Americans don't want those jobs, it's because someone crossed the Rio and took them. Doesn't pay SS or income taxes. Anyone advocating for this is kind of off their rocker.

Demographics is a bad excuse as well. Family formation is smashed by liberal college professors and massive debt. Boomers didn't graduate college with the inflation adjusted amount of $100k. It was $5k inflation adjusted worst case at the time for someone that is 70 now. You'd get a job, screw and start a family at 22. Immigration is not the answer at all.

The answer is getting 22-30 to start screwing, getting rid of illegals, cut all college funding from the federal government and build solid 3/2 homes in decent but not high end areas. The left is actively trying to destroy this country and illegal immigration is part of that. Get them out even if they're productive. My kids can get work as teens where I live, but most can't because of illegals elsewhere.

WookieMan says

There are younger people out there that want to work if they have decent parents. Stuff like landscaping. Illegals pack 20 in a house, take those jobs for less than minimum wage. I'm not sure what your reality is.

Your writing leads me to believe you're a professor type. You know what illegals do, make you go to college because there's nothing else for a kid to do. Instead they could be learning some plumbing, electric, etc in high school. Nope, the illegals took those jobs.

Illegals do a lot of manual labor I agree. But they do not prevent US born people from doing that work, It's just US born people don't choose to do it because there's better options for them. The going rate for day labor in my area is $30/hr, and many of the people doing that are likely illegal. No US kid in my neighborhood will take that for manual labor, though some will take it for babysitting and easier work. Any US kid who comes and leaves a flyer on my doorstep for $30/hr to mow my lawn will have a job. But none have. Plumbers and Electricians make way more per hour, and are NOT generally illegal immigrants. Not the licensed ones anyway. For remodels on my home, I paid carpenters ~110/hour and that was 10 years ago. Plumbers and electricians want 'per job' quotes not hourly, but it comes out to ~200+/hr. I know they have overhead to run their businesses, but they make good money and are not illegal. AND they are fully in demand, so there is lots of opportunity to get into it.

I am not a professor. I currently work as an engineer in technology fields.

DeficitHawk says

No US kid in my neighborhood will take that for manual labor, though some will take it for babysitting and easier work.

In a snooty neighborhood, maybe. In the country as a whole, no way. That's 3x what McDs pays.

Plumbers and Carpenters can't just become them after HS, they need apprenticeships and/or training.

The reason the trades are so hot is because for 30-40 years, Leftists and Democrats were "College or Bust" and defunded Trade Schools and Careers like crazy. Now that the Boomers are too knee and back injured to enter a crawlspace, there's a shortage.

Hector Rodriguez the Guatemalan Illegal can snake a drain or put up drywall but he's illegal, has no license, not bonded and insurers. No insurer or builder or city will pass or pay for his work without those things. Wrapping frayed higher load 10AWG dryer wire with electric tape is fine in Tegucigulpa but State Farm or Orange County doesn't think so.

The "Americans don't want to make $30/hr" is pure propaganda.

DeficitHawk says

But they do not prevent US born people from doing that work, It's just US born people don't choose to do it because there's better options for them.

I'm talking about late teen kids and young adults. No, there's not better options. You live in a strange place. A kid 14-18 is not just going out and being an engineer. They need jobs that teach them hard work and the illegals take them all.

Day labor is not remotely $30/hr in 90% of the country. And illegals charge less for cash. My former boss hired illegals. My buddy hires illegals. His buddies hire illegals. You clearly don't know the system at all. You sound like you're making this into some humanitarian thing. Kids in this country have trouble getting jobs because they're taken by illegals. You're not listening to my points.

I have a 14 year old kid. Illegals are drop outs and can work 7 days a week 365 days. I'm not worried about a 40 year old without a job as they made their own bed with life decisions. The question is how did the 40 year old get there? Not finding a job when young. Illegals did that. Shack up with 20 people on $1,500 rent. You can live on $10 cash per hour if everyone is working.

30% or so of my friends are engineers. Illegals are not engineers. I'm talking about basic jobs for young kids and young men to learn some skill even it's not the plan to do long term. At some point you have to work for someone or start a business. How do you learn anything if 30M illegals took those low pay jobs under the legal minimum wage? We have a young class of people that don't know how to do shit. They're forced to work for less IF they even can.

I'm networked and can get my kids a $40/hr job this summer. Other families aren't that well off. I also don't want to do it for them because that's what they'll expect in the future. Going out and finding a low wage job is not a cake walk. You're dealing with business owners that have high turnover and are ass holes. Illegals will put up with it so they get hired 8 out of 10 times.

AmericanKulak says

The "Americans don't want to make $30/hr" is pure propaganda.

Commenting at the same time(ish), I get distracted. But spot on. My kid will work any job. He can only work summer jobs basically and they're all taken and we're not a high illegal area (Chicago is).

Hawk is off on the plumber and electrician thing too. They're not the owner of the company. Most small time plumbers and electricians hire illegals. They just come in and check to make sure it's to code. If it's not they call off the inspection and fix something if they screwed it up.

There are way more illegals taking jobs than he understands. Specifically young men that are getting no skills of any kind and are forced into the college funnel and broke for 15 years and don't have kids. That's illegals. And yes some bad parenting, but illegals just make it harder for young people.

WookieMan says

Hawk is off on the plumber and electrician thing too.

That is an understatement. @DeficitHawk is off on everything. Everything he says is off because he has an agenda.

AmericanKulak says

The "Americans don't want to make $30/hr" is pure propaganda.

Its not. Go try to hire day labor for some landscaping work. Check the ads and nextdoor posts. Check the flyers left on mailboxes or thrown onto your driveway in a little baggy with rocks. Go to a home depot parking lot. In my area is at least $30/hr, and you'll find mostly immigrants offering to do it. You dont find kids offering. I have never once had a neighborhood kid offer to mow my lawn. There are not too many kids in my neighborhood though, so thats true too.

Its not like there's a bunch of American kids lining up for this. When I was a kid, I did it for $6/hr and had to ride my bike a few miles to get to the job. But that was, admittedly, a while back.

It may be regional, Im in San Francisco Bay Area. But thats really true here. The plumbers and electricians I use own their own businesses. So I know them, and I am working directly with the owner. They are quite expensive, but they do have overhead. They are not bringing illegal people to work on the job. Lower end contractors probably do it though.

DeficitHawk says

It may be regional, Im in San Francisco Bay Area.

Okay, so you're so far out of the mainline US experience, in a very unique and unrepresentative and unbelievably high-cost area where people poop on the street and homeless people shoot up in broad daylight. Where McD's workers start in the high teens/hour.

Even so I have my doubts...

AmericanKulak says

It may be regional, Im in San Francisco Bay Area.

Okay, so you're so far out of the mainline US experience,

Any other people here in the San Francisco Bay Area? What do you pay for labor like a landscaping project? IF its less than $30/hr can you tell me where you find the people? Its possible i'm just terrible at negotiating... but that's what I've had to pay to get people for each of the last few projects I've done.

Re: "Americans won't do those jobs." They would if 1. they needed the money 2. it paid well enough

I had an argument with some female in a gym in Juno Beach one afternoon; she obviously has some sucker husband who toils away during the day and her job is to maintain her figure so she's worth keeping around.

I told her how my mother picked strawberries in the summertime when she was young; later when an older teen she went to Nantucket and was a chambermaid in a hotel there.

Americans did everything when I was growing up. All the kids I knew did odd jobs to make some dough since we weren't getting big allowances.

Fuck the illegals, and fuck the asshole slave masters who hire them. Also, fuck those idiots who feel "sorry" for them.

DeficitHawk says

Any other people here in the San Francisco Bay Area? What do you pay for labor like a landscaping project? IF its less than $30/hr can you tell me where you find the people? Its possible i'm just terrible at negotiating... but that's what I've had to pay to get people for each of the last few projects I've done.

Have you seen the mass exodus from California? Who lives in SFBA? Hint: Check out the home prices relative to the other 95% of the country. Kids with a Corporate Lawyer Mother and a IT Exec Father don't need to work at McDs and in fact their parents (esp. Asian Tiger Moms) don't want them working when they should be SATmaxxing.

When most people from SFBA tell me about "Life here in the USA" I put it in the same box as people telling me that from Midtown Manhattan.

You're from an area where a modest ranch is over a million bucks.
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/40814-Calido-Pl-Fremont-CA-94539/25032279_zpid/

clambo says

I told her how my mother picked strawberries in the summertime when she was young; later when an older teen she went to Nantucket and was a chambermaid in a hotel there.

It used to be true. But you cant ignore the population demographics when you make that statement. There used to be lots of younger people to do those jobs. Now there's lots of old retired people and few young people. You cant harken back to when your parents were kids and ignore this fundamental fact.

Our demographics are fundamentally different than they used to be, and that has to change the labor market.

DeficitHawk says

Its not like there's a bunch of American kids lining up for this. When I was a kid, I did it for $6/hr and had to ride my bike a few miles to get to the job. But that was, admittedly, a while back.

It may be regional, Im in San Francisco Bay Area. But thats really true here. The plumbers and electricians I use own their own businesses. So I know them, and I am working directly with the owner. They are quite expensive, but they do have overhead. They are not bringing illegal people to work on the job. Lower end contractors probably do it though.

Unequivocally false about American kids. Sure there are some do nothing loser kids. That's a parenting problem. The good parents promote their kids to work. My kid would shit his pants for $30/hr. This is why I give others here shit. SFBA is a different planet. My kids do have to fight against low wage illegals even here in IL. Wasn't the case 25 years ago when I was younger.

Also $6/hr is fine in todays time for a young kid as well. Today it's closer to $10-15, but that's what illegals work for and my kids can't get that even though they want to work. Don't care to know if you have kids or not. I share too much here. But having 3 of them, times have changed. Young boys and men cannot get work. Everyone has to give up when illegals take all the jobs.

SFBA you got homeless and probably not a ton of illegals. They're all down in LA. Chicagoland has one of the largest illegal populations. And they don't just stay in the city. They start moving out to the suburbs. I don't cite sources, but I'll report what I physically see and know. Illegals are a massive problem here. And day labor is not $30/hr here. $15-20/hr is the basic wage.

Also if a plumber charged you $200/hr you got ripped off. Or copper was super high, which could happen. I doubt it though. Margins are tight, but $200/hr on an 8hr day is $1,600 a day. $8k/wk for 5 days. Plumbers charge the parts separately on their bills, not the labor.

Either way you see a brown person on a project they're 90% illegal. That takes away one kid/citizen that could have had a mentor and at least learned to be handy or make a career out of it. That's how it was even 20-30 years ago. Not now.

DeficitHawk says

You cant harken back to when your parents were kids and ignore this fundamental fact.

I'm 41. All of my buddies were working at 14-16 years of age. No one does now because the 20 year old illegal that raped kids on the way in took that job for less than a citizen would be paid.

Also we didn't have an official 2020 census either. I sure as hell received nothing. No one knocked on my door. Am I even counted? Covid. Dems had a 10 year window to let in as many illegals as possible because Trump won in 2016. That was their solution in 2020. Covid happened and people freaked out and didn't pay attention to immigration, all the while there's a river of illegals pouring through the border. Not refugees either.

They need to go. This fake due process claim they can work it out in court from their home country. It's 2025 not 1825. Tech and the internet are usable things in this process.

AmericanKulak says

You're from an area where a modest bungalow is over a million bucks.

Oh, I WISH I could get a modest bungalow for a million bucks. A million will just get you a rotted out shitshack in the 'bad' part of town. SFBA is brutal for real estate.

DeficitHawk says

Oh, I WISH I could get a modest bungalow for a million bucks. A million will just get you a rotted out shitshack in the 'bad' part of town. SFBA is brutal for real estate.

You're just used to American standards. Illegals will cram 3-4 people in per room. Enough people crammed in can pay the rent. This just pushes rent prices higher and higher. SF has one of the lowest home ownership rates in the country at 35%. The less illegals the lower house prices.

WookieMan says

I'm 41. All of my buddies were working at 14-16 years of age. No one does now because the 20 year old illegal that raped kids on the way in took that job for less than a citizen would be paid.

I'm almost a decade older and if you didn't have a P/T job in HS, you were kind of weird and spoiled. If you didn't have a job after 18, you were a looooser. Even college kids had at least P/T jobs.

Anyway, this thread is sort of wandering at this point.

I know you don't agree with me. I know I don't agree with you. I know no one will change their minds.

I am pro immigration and I don't blame immigrants for all of our woes. I think we need immigrants to make up for our declining demographics and avoid Japan style empty towns and lost decades with no growth. I don't agree with the narratives that the immigrants are all rapists and terrible people. I think most of them are probably significantly above average in their populations for work ethic and motivation, and that's why they self select to migrate here.

I do want legal immigration as opposed to Illegal immigration but I think we should keep immigration. As for the illegal immigrants who are already here, I don't see how to practically remove them without sacrificing our liberties (war time powers in peace time, and depriving people of due process) which I dont support. Id much rather see a robust legal pathway for new immigrants, and let people who are here illegally be eligible to apply for it if they meet the requirements we set. Then our illegal population would eventually convert to a legal population, bad actors would get screened out, and a 10M person enforcement problem becomes much more manageable. It also ends the immoral 'pseudo-slavery' status quo of illegals that has persisted for many years.

That's my opinion on it. I know you don't agree.

DeficitHawk says

I am pro immigration and I don't blame immigrants for all of our woes. I think we need immigrants to make up for our declining demographics and avoid Japan style empty towns and lost decades with no growth. I don't agree with the narratives that the immigrants are all rapists and terrible people. I think most of them are probably significantly above average in their populations for work ethic and motivation, and that's why they self select to migrate here.

I don't think we need to grow population into infinity. At some point it's detrimental to society and planet, our system if it relies on infinite expansion is greed and it's sin. Look at India, they have well over a billion, their citizens are treated like complete shit because value of each citizen is none. They got their cast system too, to keep poor from ever moving up. Somehow our shitty corporations love them and their culture. We had plenty of people 50 years ago, it's way too crowded today with all the illegals everywhere. I would prefer we closed borders and had population stabilize down to normal.

If you feel lonely, you can always go live in Los Angeles or San Francisco, New York, really any big city. It's definitely cozy.

Slums America will become with bigger population and more diversity:

20 years ago I could roll into my favorite campground any day of the summer and get a site guaran-fucking-teed. Now I need to wake up at 6 am in December to try and secure a reservation for June. And if I blink - it's gone.

20 years ago I could drive to Yosemite on a whim and be sure I'll get in. Now I need a fucking reservation just to enter. And don't get me started on fucking Half Dome access.

If growing population is so grand, how come it doesn't feel all that great? What did I get in exchange to losing things mentioned above?

RWSGFY says

20 years ago I could drive to Yosemite on a whim and be sure I'll get in. Now I need a fucking reservation just to enter. And don't get me started on fucking Half Dome access.

Oh man, I went there last year to see the geysers and buffalo. It was packed, no room anywhere, about half the people were Indians too. Not American Indians, Indians from India. It was like being in another country. Thanks India first departments at big tech.

Fortwaye says

RWSGFY says

20 years ago I could drive to Yosemite on a whim and be sure I'll get in. Now I need a fucking reservation just to enter. And don't get me started on fucking Half Dome access.

Oh man, I went there last year to see the geysers and buffalo. It was packed, no room anywhere, about half the people were Indians too. Not American Indians, Indians from India. It was like being in another country. Thanks India first departments at big tech.

You mean Yellowstone. Not sure if they have reservations now, but it was great during covid, no Chinese tour buses being the main benefit. No long wait to enter by car either. Don't remember seeing many dot Indians.

We were even able to score a camp site inside the park but had to change it to one outside because the lenghts of truck+trailer was 2 ft too long. :(

Covid was definitely the time to visit the most popular parks. Felt almost like 20 years ago.

DeficitHawk says

I am pro immigration and I don't blame immigrants for all of our woes. I think we need immigrants to make up for our declining demographics and avoid Japan style empty towns and lost decades with no growth.

Again disagree. Millennials are at replacement level. That's all we need. We don't need more immigration. Legal or illegal. I have bachelor buddies without kids and others that have 2-5 kids. From the people I know it's about 2.4 kids per couple is my estimate in my area. That'a a nice sustainable growth.

Now throw in 30M illegals or overstayed visas? Taxpayers and citizens cannot afford to pay for that. Most people don't understand the cash suck sound that makes on federal and state governments. They aren't paying taxes in most cases. And the money goes back home and isn't invested here.

Illegals destroy our GDP. Find the people that don't have legit SS cards and birth certificates and boot them that day. They can figure it out when they're back in their territory/country. Lower courts can't just adjudicate and think it's law. SCOTUS or Congress gets to decide that.

And stop saying peace time in this conversation, which admittedly you've been respectful. https://usafacts.org/articles/are-fentanyl-overdose-deaths-rising-in-the-us/#:~:text=Over%20a%20quarter%20of%20a,a%20fentanyl%20overdose%20since%202018.&text=In%202022%2C%2073%2C654%20people%20died,three%20years%20prior%20in%202019.

We are literally at war you just don't see it as you said you're an engineer and probably live in a more upscale place, which is fine and not judging. 200 people a day die from one drug, fentanyl. Where does that come from mainly Mexico but also Canada. Where does heroin come from, the border of Mexico. We need to cut that supply off and it's usually illegals bringing it in. We have legal weed in most states and alcohol in all states. If you need a vice those are pretty safes one that won't kill you immediately unless you're a moron with alcohol.

There are too many layers to this topic. Outside of sales taxes and buying gas, they contribute nothing. You're on the hook for road, parks, library, public transit, and plenty of other public facilities. They pay .01¢ on the $1 and you're paying probably .40¢ on the $1 overall. They then stress our law enforcement. They stress housing prices. We need to get them out.

No one would read it, but I could easily write a 100 page book on this topic with facts and citations. If you did read it, you'd see the light. There are huge topics that the light needs to be shined on. I appreciated you cordialness in these back and forth comments with everyone. You don't seem like an ass like some users here. Respond or don't respond to this and I for sure won't get butt hurt about it. I like you as a user here. Tread lightly with some is all I'll say. Not allowed specific names.

DeficitHawk says

As for the illegal immigrants who are already here, I don't see how to practically remove them

Finally the truth. And this is the problem. The mainstream leftoid media has brainwashed you to believe a lie. The fact is that if we don’t remove the illegal immigrants, we don’t have a system of laws with defending.

If you can break the law, skip the line, use social services, schools, medicine, housing, etc... and then we give you a get out of jail free card and grant you citizenship after breaking our laws and milking our handouts, then we are literally encouraging MORE people to do the same.

Deportation is the only justice for illegals. Deportation is the only justice for Americans. Why don’t you believe in justice? Instead you believe those who break the law should be granted the privilege of citizenship. Disgusting.

@DeficitHawk

California may be in the midst of an energy and debt crisis, but Governor Gavin Newsom continues to fight Washington on behalf of migrants. California’s Cash Assistance Program for Immigrants (CAPI) provides cash payments to migrants who are ineligible for Social Security.

You liberals are quite the self loathing bunch. Why do we have to pay them? In most of the history of immigration we didn't pay them at all. In fact, we vetted them and made them pass tests and speak English. I can only believe that you want America destroyed. This is why I say you are a dishonest person.

WookieMan says

Where does that come from mainly Mexico but also Canada.

Ultimately CHYna. China prefers soft methods to weaken enemies rather than a crush of heavy infantry. Long history of subverting, dividing, weakening opponents.

GNL says

You liberals are quite the self loathing bunch. Why do we have to pay them? In most of the history of immigration we didn't pay them at all. In fact, we vetted them and made them pass tests and speak English.

I do think Hawk is trying to be a decent liberal. We all aren't going to agree, but he's being decent about it. Give him a chance.

I'm in 100% agreement with you GNL, but at least hear the other side. Look at the Dem party. They didn't listen and are in shambles and are a wasteland right now. I think Hawk knows this and like Maher and the like are throwing out olive branch. I personally appreciate that even though we don't agree. Do not turn into a leftoid. That's the worst outcome.

Life is a give and take. Everyone here is wrong. Myself included. He's have a civil discussion about a topic. There's no trans bull shit with it. I think liberals like this can meet in the middle. Won't be perfect, but better than the current situation. I also believe legit liberals don't want to see this shit storm crumble their beliefs. They're at the cliffs edge.

Wookie, I just don't believe he's being honest. Several commenters have given every good reason for Trump to do what he wants to do for the American citizen. America is being overrun, used and robbed. I remember years ago, visiting friends in Myrtle Beach. The wife was a restaurant manager and she told me that every summer, she hires all foreign guest workers for the summer. That is fucked. Why? Why and who is allowing it? Fuck.

To say American kids won't work is bullshit. Kids need summer jobs badly. Your comments are 100% spot on.

I think @DeficitHawk is a Saboteur. Notice he has not condemned the political underhandedness that got us here. Maybe the Republicans are just as bad and have given lip service for decades. Remember the Dems talking about immigration and how it is out of hand? Well, at least they did a couple decades ago. Just spit balling here but I think the Dems and Reps are working together and don't really care who comes in as long as they can use it to their benefit somehow. And I see @DeficitHawk in the same light.

WookieMan says

I do think Hawk is trying to be a decent liberal. We all aren't going to agree, but he's being decent about it. Give him a chance.

This is, probably, the nicest thing anyone has ever said to me on this forum.

WookieMan says

Look at the Dem party. They didn't listen and are in shambles and are a wasteland right now. I think Hawk knows this and like Maher and the like are throwing out olive branch.

This is true. This is exactly my intention.

Dem party has a LOT of issues. While I complain about Trump and his divisive style (which I genuinely feel is true, and revolting)... the Dem party has its own form of division. Identity politics have replaced common sense with some sort of fractured tribalism... every group has to be identified as a group, and then the social justice for each group has to be debated.

You can tell from my posts above, that I am pro immigration. I like immigrants. I know many of them, have worked with many of them, and feel that they add to our community. I am pro "Multiculturalism" in that I am perfectly fine that my neighbors and co workers come from different cultural and ethnic backgrounds. I think its interesting to learn about their cultures, eat their foods, and celebrate their holidays. All of that is a plus for me and I welcome it. The key ingredient to me is 'common values'... rule of law, Constitutional freedoms, pay your taxes, be respectful, Meritocracy not Aristocracy, etc, and thats what I judge the people I interact based on. These are American values that I hold dear.

I am NOT in favor of "DEI policies" that take every group of people, divide them up into races, and whatever other divisions, and then apply race and gender based rules in some attempt to forcibly counteract every groups past inequities with new inequities... I don't like those policies, I dont think two wrongs make a right, and I dont like the tactic of dividing people against each other. I feel that the democratic party has lost itself in a swamp of such policies, and has lost sight of the most fundamental goal "Unify people through common American values, and ensure that all of us have social mobility on the basis of our efforts". That is to say I support equal opportunity and social mobility, but I don't support equal outcomes.

So when I talk about immigration, and I talk about "rule of law" being important to me, you will obviously say "Hey even if you like multiculturalism and immigration, Illegal immigration is not respecting rule of law"... and that is true. It is not fair for illegal immigrants to 'skip the line' while people who follow the rules didnt get to come. So what to do about that conundrum?

First, I am not talking about criminals and gang members, etc... I get it that Fox news bombards everyone with the message that they are ALL criminals and gang members... but thats just not my experience at all. I want the criminals and gang members removed and sent home, using legal and constitutional means.

I am now talking about people who broke the law in coming here... but otherwise are productive members of society and not engaging in crime. These people STILL represent an unfairness in that they skipped the line, and letting them stay requires accepting the morally frustrating fact that their action will ultimately benefit them even though they cheated. But I am more lenient towards these people than most conservatives.

Here is why:
I think our immigration policy (sheer numbers of legal immigrants) has been too low for a long time, and the illegals came to satisfy the economic demand that existed. People on both sides of the aisle allowed this to go on for many decades because they both benefited, and no 'legal' compromise could be reached. Just as skipping the line is immoral.... Knowingly allowing these people to come and not rectifying the situation for decades.... then suddenly taking the position of "Hey you cheated, get out" is equally immoral. Given the immorality of switching the standards after decades of "dont ask dont tell", I think a compromise is in order.

So to me, I'd let the illegal population be eligible to apply for a legal pathway. There can be a penalty for the original crime, because there was a crime. But encouraging the crime to go on for decades as a 'nudge nudge wink wink' and then suddenly applying the full force of law is not moral to me.

And to me, the quantity of people should be close to the quantity here today, give or take. I know many of you disagree on this point.

DeficitHawk says

It's just US born people don't choose to do it because there's better options for them.

This is the infinitely-repeated fallacious justification of "Americans won't work for the low wages that illegals will, therefore we need illegals."

No, we need higher wages for Americans, not wholesale betrayal of young Americans so that the rich can pay less for landscaping. Americans will do any job if paid enough.

Illegals drive down wages. That is their sole function. To harm low-income Americans for the benefit of high-income people who have no sense of responsibility to their fellow citizens, or sense of unity as Americans.

Patrick says

Illegals drive down wages. That is their sole function.

And drive up housing costs. It's no accident that housing costs exploded when they did. I'm starting to think their "value" to the "Economy" is rescuing landlords and asset holders from price declines/stagnation that would inevitably come with a softly dropping natural population. It's at least 30% of the reason, if not as much or more.

That mayor in Ohio immediately began snatching up old delapidated housing the moment he got tipped off that Haitans were on the way, and rents exploded 30%.

Which is self-healing, anyway - eventually housing becomes so economical that a barrier to household formation is completely breached.

True, I exaggerated.

Criminal aliens are also useful for driving up rents and the cost of a house for the benefit of landlords and current owners.

They are also useful for getting more Congressional representation in far-left extremist districts and for casting illegal votes for far-left extremist candidates.

Patrick says

Illegals drive down wages. That is their sole function

Both legal and illegal immigrants drive down wages. But that is not their sole function. They also enable us to sustain and grow the capacity of our industrial output, while constantly bringing a flow of "above average motivation" people who keep us more productive than we would be otherwise.

Who is this "us", kemosabe?

Sounds like your "us" does not include low-income Americans, who are directly harmed by the massive inflow of illegals.

Reminds me of a company I was at which "regretted" the mass layoffs they were imposing, but claimed that "We will be a stronger company for it."

DeficitHawk says

Both legal and illegal immigrants drive down wages. But that is not their sole function. They also enable us to sustain and grow the capacity of our industrial output, while constantly bringing a flow of "above average motivation" people who keep us more productive than we would be otherwise.

Pretty sure that most people would agree the standard of living has declined, not increased, due to wage busting, housing cost increasing immigrants. Especially those under 40-50.

We actually know now thanks to the NIST releases that the impetus for H1Bs and "Skilled Immigrants" wasn't a shortage, but a desire to cut salaries for American skilled workers.

We also know that there was never a shortage of STEM. The reason the best and brightest switch from Math and Engineering to Finance at MIT and elsewhere is because STEM wages have been pounded down. Engineers used to blow schoolteachers away, but when you factor in the latter often has a higher starting salary, far easier time at getting a job, tenure and almost total layoff protection without protracted intervening job searches or cross-country moving, and Executive level health and pension benefits plus far more time off and way less hours, why be an Engineer? Math and Science teachers are in high demand. Throw in a Spanish cert instead of cramming hard to pass tough upper level Engineering classes, and you can booze your way through school.

Patrick says

Americans will do any job if paid enough.

We will do any job if paid enough. But we can not do all of the jobs. There are not enough of us to do do all of the jobs.

Just raising wages wont fix the problem... I will move from Job A to Job B if job B increases the pay. And if Job A will increase the pay I will go back to Job A... and so on... but the whole time, only one of the jobs is getting done and the other one isn't getting done. That's just inflation, its not increased productivity. It doesn't help anything.