patrick.net

Isn't it ironic ?

That is, the idea that politics at some point invaded science to such a great degree that you now get to reject any science you choose to, solely for political reasons ?

marcus says

Isn't it ironic ?

Dontcha think?

marcus says

That is that without greenhouse gasses and water vapor, the earth would be much colder than it is?

I hate to break it to you, but water vapor IS a greenhouse gas, as a matter of fact, it makes up 95% of greenhouse gases.



marcus says

If one accepts this fact, as all scientists do, then it's not all that much of a leap to accept that increasing the co2 content of the atmosphere increases the greenhouse effect.

Sorry, wrong again. The sun creates the heat that increases the greenhouse effect and evaporation of water into water vapor. Why is it warmer on cloudy nights versus clear nights?



marcus says

I'm not big on conspiracy theories,.

But you get your info from this site below? Really?

marcus says

https://www.skepticalscience.com/climate-models.htm

You know, the single guy working out of his spare bedroom writing a blog? Very scientific, isn't it?

marcus says

Isn't it ironic ?

You can say that again!!!

Onvacation says

I am not a shill for the oil company I just believe in science.

Two simple questions: Do you accept that overall the climate on Earth is warming?
Do you accept that the level of CO2 in the atomosphere is rising?

marcus says

even if there wasn't a lot of science confirming the greenhouse effect. You think us emitting so much carbon in to the atmosphere at this time of warming is just a coincidence ? Do you actually question the greenhouse effect ? That is that without greenhouse gasses and water vapor, the earth would be much colder than it is?

If one accepts this fact, as all scientists do, then it's not all that much of a leap to accept that increasing the co2 content of the atmosphere increases the greenhouse effect.

Please
Onvacation says

Can anyone link to the scientific formula that correlates co2 increase with warming?

There should be a quantifiable correlation between the amount of co2 in the atmosphere and the level of global warming.

After all the science is settled.

Let's do nothing about nothing & see what happens.

That is all arguing with deniers is, doing nothing. Doing something would be:

Close the borders to 3rd worlders entering 1st world countries and allow the natural lower birthrate of the prosperous nations to let population settle to a level sustainable by wind, solar and other renewables. Solar and wind are on the increase anyway.

Restrict imports from countries that manufacture products without following similar environmental laws as the US.

Trump seems to be the only one addressing these issues.

Evan F. says

Is your BS in climate science?

No. But I do understand the scientific method.

Onvacation says

Can anyone link to the scientific formula that correlates co2 increase with warming?

Still waiting.

marcus says

That is, the idea that politics at some point invaded science to such a great degree that you now get to reject any science you choose to, solely for political reasons ?

No. It's dangerous to reject science and ostracize anyone that does not accept your flawed theory.

rdm says

Do you accept that overall the climate on Earth is warming?

It's actually cooling. Look it up. The temperature peaked in 2016 and has been falling.
2017 was the third warmest and 2018 looks to be continuing the downward trend.

The temp went up 4/100 of 1 degree 2015 to 2016 and down 1/10 from 2016 to 2017. If you believe worldwide yearlong average temperature can be measured with accuracy.

If you believe.

rdm says

Do you accept that the level of CO2 in the atomosphere is rising?

Absolutely and plants love it.

Onvacation says

rdm says

Do you accept that the level of CO2 in the atomosphere is rising?

Absolutely and plants love it.

Yes, I am surprised there seems to be no research into this type of feedback loop. Would not more CO2 accelerate plant growth? After all, plants construct themselves using carbon from the CO2 in the air, powered by sunlight. And would not slightly higher temps encourage plant growth, especially in northern climates?

HeadSet says

We also do not need any Michele/Malia/Sasha or Ivanka in the future.

If Ivanka turns a debate into a swim suit competition she has my vote!

"Chevron’s first slide quotes #IPCC: “It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.” Says there is no debate on this consensus. #climatetutorial #climateliability"

Let that sink in. Oil comapnies accept the expert consensus on human-caused global warming
Why are you guys carrying water for the Kochs/KSA/OPEC?
The main show is not about Al Gore or questions of technical depth as a criteria versus leadership.
Steve Jobs was lacking in technical knowledge but he was a great visionary.
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/mar/23/in-court-big-oil-rejected-climate-denial

I also agree 100% that global humans population growth (83 millions per year) causing current global warming, despite the fact that it may be a normal part of global warming-cooling cycles.

kt1652 says

"Chevron’s first slide quotes #IPCC: “It is extremely likely that human influence has been the dominant cause of the observed warming since the mid-20th century.” Says there is no debate on this consensus. #climatetutorial #climateliability"

Link to the presentation or this author is lying.

Big oil has modified the Tobacco industry's denial-to-the-end playbook slightly, they are using a two-faced approach.
Accepting Climate Change Science in court while funding FUD campaign secretly through 3rd party.to discredit CCS.
===
Lawyers for Chevron, one of the defendants in the case, say the company accepts the international consensus that human activities are a main driver of the build-up of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere, and the resulting warming.

https://www.sacbee.com/news/local/environment/article206025399.html#storylink=cpy
===
The company also stated that it had filed motions to dismiss such cases in other U.S. cities and counties, including in New York City and King County, Washington, although it does support “meaningful efforts to address climate change and accepts internationally recognized climate science.”

http://fortune.com/2018/06/26/big-oil-california-lawsuit-chevron/

San Francisco and Oakland sued Chevron Corp, Exxon Mobil Corp, ConocoPhillips, Royal Dutch Shell Plc, and BP Plc last year seeking an abatement fund to help the cities address flooding they said was a result of climate change.
Judge William Alsup of the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California said in the ruling that the dangers raised by the complainants were real and worldwide, and both parties accepted the science behind global warming.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-oil-climatechange-lawsuits/u-s-court-dismisses-climate-change-lawsuits-against-top-oil-companies-idUSKBN1JM0EP

Dan8267 says

If you think the globe isn't warming, you are an idiot. At this point rejecting the thousands of independent verification indicates willful ignorance. And as such, a climate change denier reveals that his opinion on any subject matter should not be taken seriously.

The bottom line is that those who deny climate change should have zero voice in policy making as they have demonstrated beyond any doubt that they prefer to ignore and reject reality.

It amazes me how people who completely ignore very valid criticisms are so sure about their position. I found the best video bringing into question the consensus and the data integrity. I have found the best way to obliterate a theory, or in this case, a religion, is to use the proponent's data and facts or scripture to disprove itself. Well, here one will see actual NOAA charts that are now different, one will see how few weather stations there were in the 1800s and one will see the recycled doom and gloom headlines that we see today, only they are from the early 1900s. If someone can watch this and still maintain that someone else who raises these questions must be stupid, or somehow fooled, then I would judge him to be following a cult.

https://www.yqZGgaZaXig

marcus says

Could it be because he listens to the scientists ?

Left wing propaganda to impose a socialist top down government on the people to insure their control over the masses. Once they have your guns and the people agree to trade away their freedoms for safety and supposed clean air, then our fine republic will become a socialist nightmare like Venezuela.

It’s an idea, a hypothesis. But it’s far from reality. GW isn’t real

For the past 20yrs, I've listened anti-GW cultists gloat "This is the last nail for this fad", "this is the end of this scam", "The end is nigh for the carbon credit extortion".
Yet here we are...
The slightest cold air coming from the pole is an excuse to rehash their griefs.

Btw, if cold air comes from the pole... then it must be that warm air from the south moves north toward the pole on the other side, right?
What does it mean at a global level?

20 years ago in GW history:

For the past 20 years I've been freezing my ass off in the mainland US. If GW is real, why am I still so fucking cold every winter when I live in the SW United States!?

Heraclitusstudent says

For the past 20yrs, I've listened anti-GW cultists gloat "This is the last nail for this fad", "this is the end of this scam", "The end is nigh for the carbon credit extortion".
Yet here we are...
The slightest cold air coming from the pole is an excuse to rehash their griefs.

Btw, if cold air comes from the pole... then it must be that warm air from the south moves north toward the pole on the other side, right?
What does it mean at a global level?

Well the warming trend has STOPPED at least in the past few years - no new records. 2019 won't be any different. Probably even colder than 2018. Definitely not a hockeystick. So all the predictions and models were COMPLETELY WRONG. Yes overall it has warmed if you take let's say a century or so, on the long term scheme of things it hasn't. Just a blip on the radar. And a whole new made up economy stealing money form others in the name of science.

NuttBoxer says

If GW is real, why am I still so fucking cold every winter when I live in the SW United States!?

Yeah... let's wrap it with seemingly practical anecdotal evidence (even if it obviously make no sense whatsoever).
Plus anyway.... it goes against my other personal beliefs. And the other cultists are with me.
It was sooo easy to rationalize away....

Heraclitusstudent says

Yeah... let's wrap it with seemingly practical anecdotal evidence (even if it obviously make no sense whatsoever).

Can you point to any concrete harm happening now (not projections) by Climate Change that warrants even 20% of the pain, cost and regulations proposed by the Climate Cultists?

Ah...so if no harm happens right now, or in the next 10 yrs, no need to even think about it, right?

Heraclitusstudent says

Yeah... let's wrap it with seemingly practical anecdotal evidence (even if it obviously make no sense whatsoever).

In July I was down in Orange Beach, AL. Stayed at the Lodge at Gulf State Park. So.... a state park needless to say I guess.

Either way, I was at the beach one afternoon and saw these guys rolling down the beach with a Gator or whatever type of 4 wheel drive vehicle it was. One dude standing on shore and another going out about 100' into the water with what looked like survey type equipment. So I casually make my way over to them because I was interested and it was a state park after all, so figured they could chat.

Long story short, no sea level rise since they had been recording levels at that park (themselves and previous data, guessing 60+ years maybe longer). If the land ice at the poles/Greenland is melting, not sure where it's going. And that's ultimately the biggest concern with climate warming. Anecdotal as balls, but about as straight from the horse's mouth as you can get.

I'd argue that science here is not settled by any stretch of imagination. As none of us are climate scientists, arguing here is rather pointless.
Having said that, using less of fossil fuels is good in any case - less money to Saudi Barbaria, Russia, and Ajatollahs; less pollution; less ocean acidification.

Heraclitusstudent says

Ah...so if no harm happens right now, or in the next 10 yrs, no need to even think about it, right?

It's fine to talk about it and even have scientific debates, but it's not ok to force government oppression onto free citizens based on predictions that so far have miserably failed. It's currently debated in science and probably needs to be debated for another 100 years before we can surely say that insignificant blip was man-made.

Heraclitusstudent says

For the past 20yrs, I've listened anti-GW cultists gloat "This is the last nail for this fad", "this is the end of this scam", "The end is nigh for the carbon credit extortion".

For the last 12 years I have been hearing from the GW alarmists that if we do nothing the temperature will spike, wetbulb death will be rampant, and Manhattan and Florida will be underwater.

Heraclitusstudent says

Btw, if cold air comes from the pole... then it must be that warm air from the south moves north toward the pole on the other side, right?

Are you trying to say that melting poles are causing record cold?

6rdB says

I'd argue that science here is not settled by any stretch of imagination. As none of us are climate scientists, arguing here is rather pointless.
Having said that, using less of fossil fuels is good in any case - less money to Saudi Barbaria, Russia, and Ajatollahs; less pollution; less ocean acidification.

Right, I'm not arguing renewable energies are bad, we should have a good mix of all feasible energies and they should compete against each other with their pros and cons. The issue is the idiotic - or probably calculated by the government oppressionists and scientist sucking a their teeth - fixation on CO2, which is the least of the problem - if a problem at all - amongst all the real pollutants.

LOOK! All I want Global warming to do, is clean my shoes and mow my Lawn, and that's IT!!!

mell says

fixation on CO2, which is the least of the problem - if a problem at all

We do not really know CO2 is a problem re. warming. It might be, in this case we are screwed unless we undertake something. It might not be, in this case we waste a lot of money on nothing. A solution would be massive expansion of nucular power - that would give us best of both - no CO2 emissions (or much lowered), and not much increase in energy price, or even decrease from what we have now. Unfortunately idiot Thurnberg/green types with no scientific or economic education want solar power in Greenland etc.
Agree that current argument wrt CO2 is highly biased and skewed towards those who argue that we are in a crisis. I suspect it is something more sinister than scientists sucking on govt' teat - who is the one deciding what to fund? There must be some group with economic interests behind all this "green" bullshit.

6rdB says

I'd argue that science here is not settled by any stretch of imagination.

Right.
Because we know how much fossil fuels we burn, we measure the CO2 increasing, we know it's a greenhouse gas, we measure out going radiation reflected by it back to the floor, we measure the temperature increasing, we measure the loss of sea ice.... But nothing is settled... Maybe the heat will miraculously go away through some yet undetermined mechanism. So why panic? Look: cold whether in the US. Let's wait 100 yrs doing nothing and see where we are then.

Plus of course we'll all be dead, so who cares?

mell says

the warming trend has STOPPED at least in the past few years

Right. Maybe it just stopped for some reason.

Heraclitusstudent says

6rdB says

I'd argue that science here is not settled by any stretch of imagination.

Right.
Because we know how much fossil fuels we burn, we measure the CO2 increasing, we know it's a greenhouse gas, we measure out going radiation reflected by it back to the floor, we measure the temperature increasing, we measure the loss of sea ice.... But nothing is settled... Maybe the heat will miraculously go away through some yet undetermined mechanism. So why panic? Look: cold whether in the US. Let's wait 100 yrs doing nothing and see where we are then.

Plus of course we'll all be dead, so who cares?

I am not a climate scientist, but Richard Siegmund Lindzen, who is NAS member and MIT prof disagrees with this assessment. As I understand, major influence of warming comes from water vapor feedback from warming, not from CO2 itself, and how much of the feedback is included, and if it is positive or negative, makes a YUUGE difference.
In any case, question is what to do. I agree that NOT doing anything is a suicidal approach - even if we have 30% possibility that current models are real, we are in deep crap. Furthermore, ocean acidification is a measurable fact. Solar panels on North pole, tax on energy to make poor people even more poor and rich even more rich, and electric cars powered by coal-produced electricity are not the solutions.