patrick.net

just_passing_through says

I bet someone puts some extra batteries in the truck!

That I would think is dangerous.

I've worked on high powered EV charging systems. I had to watch a safety video in which I had to see several people killed through their carelessness. I'm an EE, but I work almost entirely in software, but I wouldn't fuck around with the systems. A short is an uncontrollable release of energy, and it doesn't matter if you deprive it of oxygen, it will "burn" apparently, it's just a release of energy.

EV's are just a bad idea in general. They are super heavy cars, they cut through road barriers like butter, they are NOT road safe, several other problems, but you don't ever have to go to a gas station. That's the only advantage.

richwicks says

but you don't ever have to go to a gas station. That's the only advantage.

Just a charging station for 30 minutes to get 85 miles and have to unhook your trailer to access the charger... wasting at least 60 minutes. Wave of the future. Lol. No non-gay is going to buy this truck. I tow weekly for the most part. It's literally unusable besides being a fag magnet with no actual utility.

None of these EV trucks can get 100 miles with an average trailer. What the fuck was the point in buying it? You don't buy a truck to look like a gay. Elon fucked up bigly on this one the more I research it. This is a flash in the pan type thing. He'll sell them to the gays, but it won't be profitable long term.

I laughed at the guy as he drove past me…well, I laughed at his wife in the passenger seat actually.

What a stupid assed vehicle.

WookieMan says

Just a charging station for 30 minutes to get 85 miles and have to unhook your trailer to access the charger... wasting at least 60 minutes. Wave of the future. Lol. No non-gay is going to buy this truck. I tow weekly for the most part. It's literally unusable besides being a fag magnet with no actual utility.

I'm not defending this vehicle. Most people that own trucks where I live, don't need them.

I think EVs are a disaster, and I'm probably North America's authority on DIN and 15118 DC fast charging standards. I've worked on this shit, I know it innately, and I left it in disgust. I'm probably the only asshole that knows how EXI encoding works, including the stupid asshole "architects" that mandated it as a standard. I spent 2 years going through all the bugs of the actual "example implementation" and completely reversed engineered it because the RFI was bullshit that didn't explain it. In fact the RFI was so fucking wrong, that their example was incorrect, I decoded it and implemented it using their standard coding model that was released as Javascript - totally unusable in a real work environment, too slow. Total fucking garbage gets made as standards because everybody is too pussy to admit they have no idea how the fuck it works, and if they did understand it, they would certainly reject it. It's all fraud.

I are a enginerd. I look at these disasters of design, and wonder, what the fuck am I doing? I'm not solving a problem. I'm helping create one. Electric vehicles are not a solution, at least not yet. I know this is a boondoggle. Sure, we can make them, but it doesn't solve a problem. The problem exists because the governments have mandated "this is a problem", it's not an actual problem. CO2 is not destroying the planet, and even if it was, electric vehicles do NOTHING to solve this problem, if anything, they consume MORE fossil fuels.

Keep it stupid simple, or keep it simple, stupid - that's still my motto. Logic and thinking is tough enough without adding stupidity into the equation.

I can be a CTO, but I can't be a fraud, that's a limiting factor for me. I'm not stupid enough to lie through ignorance, and I'm not evil enough to lie intentionally. Imagine, competence is a limiting factor now. A doctor that properly recognized that the mRNA "vaccines" didn't work, or ventilators didn't work, or that possibly steroids or Ivermectin DID work, they got fired. That's my position. I still have a duty to all you fuckers to tell the truth, much to my detriment.

There is no reward for being right, but... I can't be wrong either. I mean, I can't lie, and if I determine everybody else is wrong, I will call them out on it, and the weight of the world drops down on me. There's no support for that! There's a thread here how our society won't survive incompetency, and I see it everywhere, and if I spot it too soon, oh, well, I'm not a team player in the fraud. "Oh, your company is all bullshit, this is why" "Shhhhhhh - we're making money from the government, shut the fuck up!". Hahahaha.

I just can't do the Asch Conformity test and agree. I can't. I'm in the 10%. I'm in that tiny percentage that if I see the longest line, no matter how many people say it's not the longest line, I still will because I don't trust any of you, I trust my own senses and ability. You'd think this would be a strength, it absolutely is not, even when I'm right, and sometimes I'm wrong as well. I'm right more than I am wrong. I was right about the Iraq War, the Afghanistan war, the Syrian war, the bombing of Libya, the Ukraine war, the Gaza war. The last two EVENTUALLY you will realize I'm correct about, after years of you shitting on me. There will be no apologies. There never are.

You might properly see this as rambling and far off subject, but I see an ENTIRE industry in a dead end, and it's obvious to me it is. I might as well talk to a brick wall as to try to convince people they are barking up the wrong tree. I just thought people didn't know, I just didn't realize propaganda reached this far and this wide. Even into science and technology it reaches. Independent thinkers are hated even when they are right, can save billions of wasted dollars, they are despised and I'm one of them.

I finally got my free 1 month trial of Tesla's "Full Self Driving" this past weekend.

I had some pretty high expectations going in - and they were greatly exceeded. I've been driving around all week running my normal errands and haven't had a single intervention for safety. Just a couple for navigation where it wasn't taking my preferred route. It drives so smooth and natural. It also accelerates very nicely and aggressively. My only complaint is that Biden's Commies running NHTSA forced Tesla nerf the FSD to come to complete stops at stop signs. Easy enough to push through with a tap on the gas.

From a busy Costco parking lot with cars and pedestrians everywhere, I just tell it to drive home and it figures its way out of the parking lot and drives me all the way home and parks in front of the house.

This shit is the real deal.

Can't wait to take it up to the LA office tomorrow. Will see if it can make it door to door without any interventions.

socal2 says

Can't wait to take it up to the LA office tomorrow. Will see if it can make it door to door without any interventions.

It's been two weeks. We're starting to worry.

socal2 says

Can't wait to take it up to the LA office tomorrow. Will see if it can make it door to door without any interventions.

That shouldn't be a thought when driving a vehicle. Time is money. Upfront cost of the vehicle is money. I get gas is expensive in CA, but it's not in most of the country in line with inflation. 5 year time span a ICE hybrid will save more money. I just want you EV guys to admit they're just fun to drive.

This isn't meant as a dig. I prefer to drive my golf cart around town. 0-25 is about 2 seconds and that's the max speed limit in town. It's fun. But it was fucking expensive to toss a Lipo battery in there for cruising around town. Looking to upgrade motor, controller and lift it. I'll be the first to admit electric is not practical having a mini version. It's expensive. I don't care about self driving as I don't trust other drivers. I'm a geezer driver. Only accident I've been in would have been unavoidable t-bone crash. Bitch just pulled out with 20' to spare at best. Tesla ain't stopping that crash.

From then on I became an extremely aware active driver. It's not about self driving and other sensors that can and will fail. You need to actively drive. That goes for ICE drivers as well. Computers and electronics fail all the time. I know what I can see and do driving a car.

Gas is expensive in CA, you say? Wait till you learn how much a kWh of electricity costs.

Eric Holder says

socal2 says

Can't wait to take it up to the LA office tomorrow. Will see if it can make it door to door without any interventions.

It's been two weeks. We're starting to worry.

Upgraded with latest version of self driving sw. It still does few silly mistakes. It did two mistakes while going to the nearby park. On a two lanes street it should have been on the left to go straight. But it was on the right only, oops it was too late then it went straight after the stop sign instead of taking right!!
At the park, it pulled over and saw trash can on the street, when I decided not to go to the crowded park, I have added my next stop. Instead of pulling back to avoid trash can, it went forward and hit the trash can just before I applied breaks and pulled in reverse.
The point is, it’s still evolving and needs some time to get better like an other technology. Meanwhile drivers must watch out all the time.

https://youtu.be/bfGn2korYXU?si=UETcrvmbeU4Sdob1

Just dropping this here. I've been warning you guys. It's not my line of work but my wife's. We talk about it daily and I know many, many, many engineers and government employees. The government is going to tax the living shit out of you EV drivers. It already takes 5 years to not pay for gas because of the high price of the vehicle itself. You still pay for electric or if you double down on stupid put in solar panels.

At some point people eventually figure out their grade school math and realize this is not possible. Or they'll have to suffer with shitty roads. I'd bet 80% of EV drivers don't even know what MFT is. This is going to get funny.

How many “silly mistakes” does it take to cost 1 life? Have the Tesla savants done the math on that?

WookieMan says

This is going to get funny.

No one will be laughing. While everyone is distracted by debating the economics of ICE versus EV, they miss that the goal of the rulers is to eliminate private cars completely by 2035 or so. Mandates on kill switches, self-drive, and taxes will lower the utility and raise the cost of ownership to unaffordable levels.

Eric Holder says

socal2 says

Can't wait to take it up to the LA office tomorrow. Will see if it can make it door to door without any interventions.

It's been two weeks. We're starting to worry.

Oh - it worked like a charm. Have taken 2 more longish road trips since without any disengagements for safety reasons. The only issue for me is it is still a bit timid at stop signs (thanks to NHTSA forcing complete stops on it) and it sometimes does not navigate my preferred routes.

Lane changing on freeways is awesome.

My trial expires this weekend and I plan on paying $99/month to extend it at least through the Summer as I have more family trips planned and some out of town guests coming to visit.

GNL says

How many “silly mistakes” does it take to cost 1 life? Have the Tesla savants done the math on that?

FSD will undoubtedly cause some accidents and will probably get some people killed along the way. The Financial garbage media and Leftists who hate Musk will trumpet every accident to the moon.

Meanwhile, Tesla continues to add BILLIONS and BILLIONS of safe miles every few months on FSD - already showing that "Supervised" FSD is 11X safer than the average human driver.

FSD is already 99% there, it is the additional .999 (march of 9's) that is most tricky to train for all the edge cases.

The data collection is already impressive, but by the end of this year - it will be very difficult of regulators and insurance companies to deny how much more safety FSD adds to the average driver.

FSD will become as mainstream as basic cruise control and airbags in every car within 10 years IMO.

socal2 says

FSD is 11X safer than the average human driver.

We're talking math on this. I've driven over 1M miles in my lifetime with one accident. One that a Tesla could NOT have avoided and I veered in the opposite direction of what a computer would think so as not to hit the passenger side. Because I could see the passenger in the front. Tesla or any FSD can't do that.

Maybe I'm special. I knew there was no avoiding the collision. I don't care what vehicle you're in. The Tesla would have just applied brakes. It's not about Tesla owners, it's about the people that are in other cars that get killed. We all know airbags are so safe... said no one.

I made the decision when the bitch pulled out in front of me to hit her truck and tore it off. Hindsight is 20/20, but time slows down when you're in that situation if you're not on a phone or messing with the radio. I don't do either in a car ever. All that shit can wait. I hit her going 40mph. No airbag deployment. Everyone walked away. I actually was able to get one of those old school bras for the front bumper and the car looked totally fine for $200. For my age I got $4k for medical (not hurt at all) and my parents got $4k for repairs that cost $200. Not happening that way with an EV. Both cars would have been totaled.

I had an experience similar to Wookie - this crazy woman backs out into traffic with a full load of children in a minivan. I'm about to go around her, but she panics and steps on the gas so that she's about to have me broadside the minivan. I had to jump the curb, mow down road signs just to avoid her enough to not kill the kids in back. For my efforts, my insurance company tried to frame me, but witness and police statements cleared my ass of liability.

HeadSet says

Mandates on kill switches, self-drive, and taxes will lower the utility and raise the cost of ownership to unaffordable levels.

That's why I keep and maintain my ICE cars as well as I can. I have an EV in the form of a golf cart. EV owners have zero fucking clue what taxes and maintenance expenses are coming their way. That's besides getting raped out the gate with prices of them. We're barely aging out of generation 1 for EV cars. Hell a hybrid Prius isn't event that old.

Hoping to push 500k miles with the Armada. I do need suspension work, but any car with 232k miles will need that EV or not. Hands down the most solid car longevity wise I or anyone in my family has ever owned. Tires, brakes and oil changes. Assuming someone made an EV of that size at the time it would have been $120k easy. $35k is what I got it for. Tows 9k. 400 miles a tank. 7 passengers comfortably. I literally saved a lifetime of gas buying that over some over priced EV.

I don't want a "fun to drive" car. I need multiple utility for my vehicle. There's not a single full EV that provides what I need. It's not even close. EV's are feel good toys.

RWSGFY says

Gas is expensive in CA, you say? Wait till you learn how much a kWh of electricity costs.

I track these expenses. The past month I paid an average of $4.87 per gallon in the Bay Area.

My last PGE bill the "average" rate was $0.46 per kwhr. The tier-2 usage is $0.538 per kwhr. If I charged my plug in hybrid at home, those kwhr would be on top of the other kwhr we consume, so Tier-2 at $0.538 per kwhr.

Without plugging in, at we average 55 mpg. At $4.87 per gallon it's about 11.2 center per mile. If I believe the "specs" of 8.8 kwhr/mile for the Prius, at $0.538 per kwhr it's 18.9 cents per mile. With this arithmetic the gas price ought to be more than $9 per gallon to be the same or cheaper as the cost to charge the f*cker at home.

I had checked this a few years ago, when our Tier-2 rate was 37 cents per kwhr. Back then, charging at home would have been equivalent to $6 per gallon. We approached $6 but never got there. We're back down to $4.87.

It's because like RWSGFY says, our electric rates are going up faster than the gasoline prices.

The utility (PG&E) will provide a small discount to charge overnight if we agree to pay a higher rate (66 cents per kwhr) during "peak" hours. Ha ha ha!

B.A.C.A.H. says

It's because like RWSGFY says, our electric rates are going up faster than the gasoline prices.

Isn't CA testing out taxing EV mileage currently for MFT? Pretty sure I read that somewhere. Said it was coming and I think it's here.

Funny thing is I have a Tesla sitting in my driveway currently sitting next to my Armada. It's a car for babies the Tesla that is. I don't care how fun they are to drive, at 6'3" it ain't for me. I could flop my dick on the roof of the car.... And I don't care how "safe" Tesla says their cars are, if I t-boned the car in my driveway it's toast at 45mph+, you're not living.

It's Solyndra 2.0:



https://nypost.com/2024/06/05/business/democratic-senator-blasts-5b-program-as-failure-after-only-7-ev-charging-stations-open-in-3-years/

Happy Juneteenth EV Fluffers!

Demand Power Charges Are the Achilles Heel of a Nationwide EV Fast Charging Network

Factors that impact DCFC profitability include low utilization percentages (due to the high percentage of home charging and that EVs represent less than 1% of the total US vehicle fleet)….and also high operating costs from demand power charges. Demand power is typically the highest electricity usage during a 15 minute period in a billing cycle and utilities charge a premium for it. By measuring spikes in power demand and charging a higher fee to supply it, a utility is better prepared to deliver electricity under all power demand scenarios and be able to afford to invest in the infrastructure to do so. The cost of demand power at my office location is $3.41 per kW….which is 22 times more than the overall cost of electricity.

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

The cost to construct, operate, and maintain a DCFC station is significantly higher than for a gasoline station. If DCFC stations cannot be operated profitably, what does it mean for the viability of the transition to an electric vehicle world that many are aspiring for.

https://www.realclearenergy.org/articles/2024/06/18/demand_power_chargesthe_achilles_heel_of_a_nationwide_ev_fast_charging_network_1038939.html

For reference: https://www.ampcontrol.io/post/the-ugly-truth-of-demand-charges-and-how-to-save-money

Most people charge at home at night when the car is not in use and the electricity rates are the lowest.

It costs me about $8.00 to fill up my battery each week charging at home. It costs my wife $70 a week filling up her Hyundai at Costco and we drive the same amount of miles.

@socal2 what’s your 1kwh price and battery capacity in kWh units, how many miles does it give per charge, what’s your ice mi/gal
Mine take 100h on regular wall socket which draws about 12A on s3 plaid. Mostly use charge point.

@Blue - I pay $0.13/kWh for Super Off Peak (midnight to 6AM) and (midnight to 2PM on weekends).

My battery is 81kWh and I plug into my existing dryer outlet in the garage which is 220V at 30 amps. So I get about 22 miles/hour hour charge. I typically charge 2 nights a week to stay in the super off peak times keeping the battery between 20 and 80% full.

@socal2, your $.13/KWh makes a big difference, good for you. Down here, pge charges $.42-48 depending on the tier. I have a feeling, can go up even more soon. In terms of the price EVs are not super economical down here. But this doesn’t stop super enthusiasts around who get free charging at work. Based on what I know most places offer 7kw (I read 6 on display, because of the load) for 4 hours max. One has to run around to pull in and out to avoid fines. At best it helps 10 to 20 miles per charge. One has to look for the next 4 hr slot. Most likely one ends up stick around 10 to 12 hr to get two charges. I guess, it’s good for the employer!

socal2 says

It costs my wife $70 a week filling up her Hyundai at Costco and we drive the same amount of miles.

And what was the price difference between the cars? Is it similar sized to your Tesla? $70/wk is kind of a lot for any Hyundai that I know of unless driving 800 miles a week which is unlikely in most scenarios.

I drive a V8 Armada, so shitty gas mileage and I don't even spend $70/wk living 20 miles from the nearest big stores or things I need to do/get. Wife drives a 4 Runner and goes to the gym every morning 20 miles each way and then drives her territories of IL and Wisconsin. I think she even struggles to get $70/wk and she drives a lot more than most.

I don't know if it's a CA thing with gas prices, but in IL ICE is substantially cheaper than an EV based on price alone. I can fuel up for 5 years here before any model of Tesla is a break even. Don't have to charge every night or at work. I can go a week and take 3 minutes to fuel up one time. I know there's a gas station near if running low. There are zero chargers where I'm at.

Not an EV hater as I've driven them before. The economics of them doesn't make sense. This is one of those CA centric things in my opinion and it looks like they're gonna tax you cats as I've been saying. You don't get to use the roads for free. You will be paying more per mile than an ICE vehicle on top of the higher purchase price soon.

I know the green push has nothing to do with your driving a Tesla. You like it. Which is fine. I need to tow 200-350 miles. No EV is remotely close to doing that and I'm talking 3-5k gross weight. Nothing extreme.

I am on a trip to Maryland, DC areas. I get gas for $3.25 at Costco! Still see EVs around. I’d suspect that they might have bought them for non economical reasons like fun, lifestyle etc.

Blue says

socal2, your $.13/KWh makes a big difference, good for you. Down here, pge charges $.42-48 depending on the tier. I have a feeling, can go up even more soon.

I would not recommend getting an EV if you can't charge at home. It's doable to rely on Tesla Superchargers, but it takes away one of the greatest conveniences of driving EV's. California just changed electric rates statewide that screws new solar homes, but locks in and even lowers my hourly rates. I have SDG&E and they have an "EV plan" where they charge higher rates during the day and give you lower rates at night.

I did the math 6 years ago when I got my first EV (Chevy Bolt) and the math worked for me in terms of gas and maintenance savings.

WookieMan says

And what was the price difference between the cars? Is it similar sized to your Tesla? $70/wk is kind of a lot for any Hyundai that I know of unless driving 800 miles a week which is unlikely in most scenarios.

A mid range Hyundai Santa Fe is $38K. Premium Santa Fe's run as high as $51K in SoCal. A new Model Y is $45K.......but there is also a $7,500 federal subsidy that brings the price down to $37,500.

Then I get over $200/month in gas/maintenance savings. The cheapest gas I can get at Costco is $4.55/gallon.

So even without the $7,500 Federal subsidy, the cost of owning/operating a Tesla is less than a mid-range Hyundai after 3 years.

I get it that you are constantly towing and an EV won't work for you, but the MAJORITY of drivers will never tow a thing in their entire lives.

socal2 says

Most people charge at home at night when the car is not in use and the electricity rates are the lowest.

Marie Antionette 'Let them eat cake'.

Most ppl in California are renters.

Of course, my post wasn't even about that. It was about DCFC profitability.

But as usual, socal2 engages in red herrings, whataboutisms and non-sequitors when he doesn't like where the subject is going.

I've been looking at the Ford F150 powerboost. It's a V6 twin turbo with an electric motor in between the engine and the 10 speed transmission. It's also basically a rolling generator with a 3.6 (upgradeable to 7.2) KW inverter. You can crank the AC in a large 3rd wheel for a 3 day weekend and burn 1/3 to 2/3 a tank of gas and it's quiet. It's also way more efficient than the tri-fuel generator I bought last year and only ever so slightly less efficient than a good diesel generator.

Over 600 mile range. 430HP, aluminum body and over 500ft/lbs of torque.

I'm only waiting to hear about the 2025 models before I buy. Rumor is it'll come with a 50KW battery (instead of the small one it has now) that will give it an electric only range of 30 miles in best case conditions.

I can easily putter back and forth to my aging parents house on electric only to check in on them. The build I'm considering is a wee bit over $85K MSRP but I know a place that will sell it to me for 4% below invoice. I think it might qualify for the Federal subsidy (with the larger battery) and they do allow incentive stacking without any BS. This place basically doesn't even have a service center, their business model is to move trucks as fast as possible with the lowest overhead possible.

I think PHEV is the near future vs. fully electric. I think Teslas are numero uno with respect to electric but aren't built very well.

Speaking of shitty builds RAM is out with a PHEV with over 600HP but it's an all electric drive train and they have a jeep V6 onboard as a generator. Again, with a range over 600 miles. But I would never buy a Stellantis vehicle. Rumor is they are fucking up builds on purpose to have an excuse to move production out of the US entirely. Either way they are pieces of shits. Much like my 90s jeep was.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Of course, my post wasn't even about that. It was about DCFC profitability.

Don't believe anyone is arguing that you can save money on fuel/electricity if you have to rely exclusively on DCFC. The Tesla Supercharging prices in California are about the same as a gallon of gas. I only use them for pure convenience or on a long road trip. Over 98% of my charging is done at home.

just_passing_through says

I think PHEV is the near future vs. fully electric.

PHEV's are twice as complex and super expensive. Why bother with a hybrid when you still have to do all the maintenance on a gas engine, oil changes, transmissions and brakes?

The other OEM's simply did not invest in batteries like Tesla has and are stuck with the worst of both worlds.

socal2 says

money on fuel/electricity if you have to rely exclusively on DCFC. The Tesla Supercharging prices in California are about the same as a gallon of gas. I only use them for pure convenience or on a long road trip. Over 98% of my charging is done at home.

AGAIN...you can't keep on subject.

That has nothing to do with the profitability of DCFC charging stations. Nothing.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

AGAIN...you can't keep on subject.

That has nothing to do with the profitability of DCFC charging stations. Nothing.

WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.