patrick.net

socal2 says

WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.

Amazing.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says

WTF are you talking about?

The thread subject is: *Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?*

I am sharing 6 years of personal experience where I am saving over $200 month on fuel driving an EV and charging at home.

Amazing.

It HAS been amazing driving my Tesla these past years.

So much power, enjoyment and cost savings!

socal2 says

HAS been amazing driving my Tesla these past years.

So much power, enjoyment and cost savings!

So fucking what, Marie Antionette? Totally off topic. Again.

The_Deplorable says

Yeah - that is absurd.

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.
https://twitter.com/JesseBWatters/status/1803583502174028210

socal2 says

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.

With what team? (Then again, why do I bother. You didn't read this the first time)

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

socal2 says

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.

What fiber optic? They built out some. A fraction of what is needed.

socal2 says

The_Deplorable says

Yeah - that is absurd.

Should have just given the money to Tesla to continue to build out the Supercharger network.

Just like the government should have given Elon Musk money to increase Starlink for rural internet access instead of spending Billions on Fiber Optic.
https://twitter.com/JesseBWatters/status/1803583502174028210

you think they are incompetent? no, they are intentionally stealing your tax dollars my man. those billions made someone’s business partner very rich.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

The challenges for achieving DCFC profitability might be one reason this country’s largest EV manufacturer fired their entire 500 member charging team. Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

Those 500 got fired with the big 10% cut they did across the board a few weeks ago. They are not abandoning Superchargers, they hired some of the key people back already.

Tesla has never played-up charging revenue from their Supercharger network as anything major in their P&L. It was always understood that it was the price to pay if they were going to mainstream Tesla's and allow for long roadtrips during the early adoption phase.

Since Tesla has DOUBLE the gross margin compared to the rest of the auto industry, Tesla could afford to provide this awesome service as part of the luxury and convenience of driving a Tesla.

As Tesla scales more batteries for onsite storage at Supercharger stations, they can bring their cost of energy down by filling up the batteries at night and selling during peak times. Tesla chargers have also become the standard for Ford, GM, Honda, Mercedes, Volvo, BMW, Hyundai.......where they will be charged a premium to access the Supercharger network which will help with utilization and peak costs.

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site. The navigation on the screen tells you the number of stalls open in real time. They have plenty of capacity as more EV's (of all brands) hit the road.

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2024/06/17/mckinsey-46-of-u-s-ev-owners-want-to-switch-to-ice-vehicles/

socal2 says

Tesla has never played-up charging revenue from their Supercharger network as anything major in their P&L

Yes. That is why the article I posted said:

Perhaps it was discovered that this division was an important drain on profitability, and why Wall Street does not appear to recognize its robust charging system as an important source of future profitability.

socal2 says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site

SOO WHAT? Has nothing to do with the profitability of them, which is the topic. Just more Tesla Fluffing on your part.

RWSGFY says

Which is more expensive: charging an electric vehicle or fueling a car with gas?

Why does it even matter. The inconvenience of the short range and having to looks for charging stations and all the other problems associated with EVs cancels out the gasoline savings if there really is any.

socal2 says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site.

Me neither because I drive an ICE car

komputodo says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site.

Me neither because I drive an ICE car

I don't have to wait in a long Costco line to fill up every week either like I do with my wife's car. I just plug it when I pull into the garage.

Couldn't be easier or more convenient.

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.

Other than maybe Rivian, all the other EV's suck.

socal2 says

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.

So fucking what?

1) This isn't the Tesla Fluffer Thread.
2) You have no proof of that. You just made it up.

socal2 says

I've never had to wait on a charge for a Supercharger site. The navigation on the screen tells you the number of stalls open in real time. They have plenty of capacity as more EV's (of all brands) hit the road.

In CA sure. Not the case in most states. Argonne National Laboratories in IL had charging for employees (free) and took their system out due to costs. I personally know an employee there. She's since had her Tesla die on her multiple times and now had to have the electrician come out and install home charging wiring. The car has become a hassle for her.

It's tougher in different states and climate with electric. As I've mention I have a lithium battery golf cart. My charger for that alone was $200. Cheaper Chinese battery was $1,300. I've looked at Tesla chargers for home and quality stuff is over $500. This isn't a dig, but most Tesla owners don't know anything about properly wiring to the panel. 6 gauge wire and 50amp breaker is another $500 easy. If you have to put it in pipe/conduit and the labor thats $1-2k. Assuming financed you're 6 months in the hole just to charge at home. That's not including electric or the cost of the car being higher.

It works in CA. Temperate climate so you're not running the AC every time you drive losing milage. It doesn't work well in at least half the country. The CT deliveries and hype will keep them afloat. But Tesla could go under in 3-5 years with market saturation. I hate predictions, but I'm just not seeing it. Anyone that bought any non-CT model will keep it for a long time. There's a majority of the population that has no interest in charging a car for 30 minutes on a road trip. That's undeniable. The business plan is to dump and run. Hence why Elon is asking for his $56B or whatever it is (agreed to). He knows the ship is sinking and so do the shareholders.

Space X will be his legacy. Tesla will go under. Someone will likely come in and buy up the debt/stocks and keep it going. This is what Musk does. I actually like him, but until you understand his business model people don't get it. Your Tesla will likely be bricked in the next 5 years to generate revenue. Some software update. This is the future. He's following Apple, just with cars.

socal2 says

PHEV's are twice as complex and super expensive. Why bother with a hybrid when you still have to do all the maintenance on a gas engine, oil changes, transmissions and brakes?

Because it's a much better built vehicle not to mention a land yacht that is a rolling generator. It's almost as fast as most teslas. That twin turbo v6 engine is in it's 3rd generation and very reliable. I can do a long road trip and won't have to stop and charge ever.

And I don't have to charge! Although I would if they made it a PHEV and those generally take ~11hrs from a 120 so no problem overnight.

Teslas need a lot of repairs and there aren't a lot of places that can work on them. What are you going to do with that expensive battery in 10 years? My guess it won't just be the cost of replacement and labor but soon pricey disposal fees.

You need to add that into the cost of owning it.

It's also much better looking. Most Teslas to me just look like ugly grocery gitters.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.

So fucking what?

1) This isn't the Tesla Fluffer Thread.
2) You have no proof of that. You just made it up.

Say those 46% got any EV. You get brown outs and power outages across the country. We don't have the capacity for EV's remotely either way. The greentards want solar and wind. We need nukes if this will ever work. I bitch about EV's for multiple reasons, but this is #1. #2 is price. #3 is getting the materials for batteries. #4 is charging locations outside of CA.

We need a massive infrastructure build out of electric production. It's not happening. Nukes take 5 years to build. We need probably 20 more nuke sites. Hydro is problematic because of environmental "stuff." Solar and wind need storage when they're not producing which is massively expensive.

I don't see a future for EV's without massive nuke build out. Otherwise it's coal and that defeats the point of going EV if you give a shit about CO2 (I don't) which grows plants and produces oxygen. I kind of like breathing.

WookieMan says

Temperate climate so you're not running the AC every time you drive losing milage.

One of the many nice things I haven't mentioned about that truck is the AC is run from the battery. So you can sit parked with the engine off and run it. When the battery gets low the engine kicks on for a minute or two to recharge it.

Also, the interior isn't ugly with an ugly rotated computer screen like a Tesla it's very functional. The gear shift folds down automatically and you can unfold the padded armrest into a work surface. I can sit in a parking lot with the AC on with the engine turned off and read patnet memes from my laptop on basically a table.

With room left for a burger, fries and coke.

just_passing_through says

It's also much better looking. Most Teslas to me just look like ugly grocery gitters.

Not a truck guy, but I'd take that over a cyber truck.

The problem with the argument of parts on an ICE vehicle is that there's already a system in place. Plenty of auto parts stores. Online ordering of cheap parts. You're almost 99% likely within 10 miles of a gas station outside of the southwest. The infrastructure is established for ICE vehicles and hybrids. Not just gas. Maintenance. People that have worked on your car for 20-40 years in whatever variation.

There are no skilled EV mechanics. That will take 20-30 years. I get being a front runner on new tech, but it's just not worth it. Hybrids are already about 20 years deep time wise. They're fun to drive, I won't dispute that. I just don't see it being the future.

just_passing_through says

With room left for a burger, fries and coke.

Calm down on that unless you're a workout freak. Went out to eat Thursday, not fast food. I'm legit done. I feel like shit after going out to eat. I quit smokes 6 years ago and I think I might quit going out to eat.

I like the fun/atmosphere at most places, but it's generally shit food. Local places, eh, decent BBQ place. I just like homemade fresh food. Hard when traveling, but we still try to cook our own food when we travel.

EV's are the chain restaurants and ICE cars are home cooking... lol.

Back-of-the-envelope relative costs for where I live (bay area):
If an EV goes 3 miles on 1 kWhr and the cost of a kWhr is 40¢ when charging off-peak, it's costing you 3 / 0.4 = 13¢/mile
If a car goes 30 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 (California pricing!), it's costing you 4.75 / 30 = 16¢/mile

Around town, the EV will go farther on a charge and be cheaper; at highway speeds, the ICE will probably pull ahead for cost and distance.

If you want to be cheap, then a Prius might be the winner:
50 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 is 4.75/50 = 9.5¢/mile

The Camry hybrid is probably 12¢/mile. Not bad for a descent-sized vehicle.

I've seen some public chargers around here that are charging 56¢/kWhr for charging. If you doing that for highway road trips where an ICE is most efficient, I'm guessing you fall way behind. If you're charging at 150 kWh rate (adding 225 miles with half an hour of waiting), it's much slower and your are hurting the battery. I'd say that for long road trips, the ICE is cheaper, way more convenient, and you're not hurting your $10,000 battery.

Another thing about road trips... if you're driving your EV at 70 MPH but stopping for 1/2 an hour every 3 hours, you're really only averaging 70x30 / (3 + 0.5) = 60 MPH. Drop the speeds to 60 and you'll gain some MPG in your ICE.

SunnyvaleCA says

If you're charging at 150 kWh rate (adding 225 miles with half an hour of waiting), it's much slower and your are hurting the battery.

The math is per hour in my opinion. 30 minutes at a charger costs me about $150 regardless of the electric even if it's free. Still haven't factored in the higher cost of the car. I'd lose massive amounts of money driving an EV. Talking $50-75k and then the interest on that if I were to invest it.

It's a fast car that makes people feel cool. I like money and time. Not getting that with an EV. It's only a $$$ suck. You EV cats will eventually get it.

WookieMan says

30 minutes at a charger costs me about $150 regardless of the electric even if it's free

Depending on your usage patterns, an electric car that you plug in at night in your garage might save you more time than taking your ICE car to the gas station. But yeah, 1/2 pit stops during road trips would be a drag. Could be longer if you have to wait for someone else to use the charger first.

SunnyvaleCA says

Depending on your usage patterns, an electric car that you plug in at night in your garage might save you more time than taking your ICE car to the gas station.

I get that, but it's not about usage patterns for me. I don't have a consistent driving schedule. I'm rural so we're putting 30k+ per year on cars. It's not practical in flyover country for non-city dwellers with kids. It's a big city car or California where there are a ton of chargers.

All full EV's are DINK car owners. They're not practical if you have kids that have activities. Basically it's people with dual incomes living in urban settings. Or empty nesters. Which is fine, pay more for a fun to drive car. I've yet to know anyone with kids that bought a Tesla or any EV.

If I were to drive west from my house, there's no charging for 60 miles that wouldn't cause a 20-30min detour and that's not accounting for the charge time if I have to go to it. It's why my kids go crazy when they see a Tesla. It's like seeing bigfoot. You don't see them where I'm at because there's not enough range if I have three 100lbs boys smashed in the back, the wife, and my 220lbs ass (tall not fat) driving to go very far.

Once I leave home even if I fully charged I'd have immediate range anxiety with the payload of people I could barely fit I'm hauling around and the distances. There's at least 30 gas stations within 20 miles from me. 2 in my own town. Only one has a charger it's out of the way of any direction I'd go usually. I have an electric golf cart. As simple as it is, I don't want to plug it in every night after using it. Last thing I want to do when I get home.

I'd rather have a beer, write a novel on patnet or go to bed and not have range anxiety for the next day and plug it in. No value or utility in EV's and I probably speak for 100M people nationwide the will never get one. Factor in kids and EV's are hitting market saturation. If they are good cars (longevity), sales will plummet in a big way.

Another thought. If EV's are the future and Dems want to be green, what car does Biden ride around in? Hell all of congress. Assuming this is accurate, basically no one. https://www.eenews.net/articles/here-are-the-lawmakers-who-drive-evs/

100 Senators and 435 House members. 13 supposedly drive them. Given the age of these people it's likely they don't have kids living at home. So why doesn't the Democrat side have at least 200 EV's? Only 12? One republican broke ranks.

They have the pay to afford one on a single salary and their insider trading. You'd think they'd all be driving EV's if they're so worried about CO2. Government can't push this shit and not back it up. Classic rules for thee not for me.

WookieMan says

There are no skilled EV mechanics. That will take 20-30 years.

There is little to no maintenance required other than body work for wrecks. No oil changes, transmission or brake work. Batteries on early model Teslas are lasting a long time and will be 100 recycled.

Will be a huge disrupter to alot of fields. No wonder there are so many people against it.

Need more nuke plants for sure if we are serious.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

socal2 says

Most of those 46% who want to switch aren't driving Teslas.

So fucking what?

1) This isn't the Tesla Fluffer Thread.
2) You have no proof of that. You just made it up.

Tesla has the industry's highest loyalty and retention rate.

Trust me, once you drive a Tesla - you are not going back to drive a primitive ICE cars let alone downgrading to an inferior EV brand.

https://cleantechnica.com/2024/04/11/tesla-leading-in-auto-brand-loyalty/#:~:text=Brand%20Retention%20Rates%3A%20Tesla%20Takes,Toyota%20lags%20behind%20at%2054%25.

SunnyvaleCA says

Back-of-the-envelope relative costs for where I live (bay area):
If an EV goes 3 miles on 1 kWhr and the cost of a kWhr is 40¢ when charging off-peak, it's costing you 3 / 0.4 = 13¢/mile
If a car goes 30 miles on a gallon of gasoline that costs $4.75 (California pricing!), it's costing you 4.75 / 30 = 16¢/mile

Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?

socal2 says

Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?

The earthquake happened dude. The Tsunami is coming. You will pay more for an EV car in the near future. I don't see repeat buyers. You're going to get taxed. As gas prices drop, no one will want an EV. Tesla and the likes will have to raise prices to cover the cost of production.

You're in the heyday of a failing endeavor. The math doesn't work without $500B in nuke investment at minimum. That raises everyone's rates and everyone doesn't want an EV as gas prices drop. I seriously want it to work. I just don't want another burden tossed at our feet. This has to be a massively slow roll out with responsibility.

EV is a roller coaster on its initial climb to start the ride. It should have been a slow train ride. We just don't have the tracks to make it work in the near term. It's math and infrastructure. You can't maintain roads without money. EV's WILL get even more expensive. Screen shot this post or whatever. Taxes are a coming.

Nuclear is now "green" so all is good... no worries.
Branding is everything.

socal2 says

Man - you guys get raped on your electric rates! PG&E doesn't offer any kind of EV plan?

PGE EV-B rates:
Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh) PEAK PART-PEAK OFF-PEAK
Summer Usage $0.73169 (I) $0.48758 (I) $0.37503 (I)
Winter Usage $0.54909 (I) $0.41708 (I) $0.34535 (I)

You know, PGE paid a lot to California wildfires. This rates should reflect those payments!

I am not against EV but there is another problem with EV (at least in my case) that for inconsistent driving needs (a lot or nothing), I always end up using charge point even though, I can get almost free ;) out of my excess generation from SP that otherwise goes to grid and get almost nothing in return.

socal2 says

I don't have to wait in a long Costco line to fill up every week either like I do with my wife's car

You are so silly. It's a false choice to have to choose between refueling at Costco versus charging an EV at home.

Today (June 23, 2024) I purchased gasoline for my plug in Prius at Platinum Gas on Tully Road in San Jose for $4.059 per gallon. And I didn't make a special trip to Platinum Gas. I was passing by on my way home from somewhere else. No line of cars, because it wasn't Costco. Could've charged it at home for $0.45 per kwhr. Got 57 mpg on that fillup at $4.059 per gallon. You do the math.

Silly Socal.

WookieMan says

Taxes are a coming.

I already pay high registration fees for my EV in California so those costs have already been baked in the cake. My power company (SDG&E) just locked in my new rates for the next half decade so I will continue to save over $200/month driving a comparable car.

B.A.C.A.H. says

Could've charged it at home for $0.45 per kwhr. Got 57 mpg on that fillup at $4.059 per gallon. You do the math.

Silly Socal.

I have done the math.

My charging costs are about 75% cheaper than yours. Gas is really expensive in San Diego County since we are so far from the refineries.

socal2 says

Trust me, once you drive a Tesla - you are not going back to drive a primitive ICE cars let alone downgrading to an inferior EV brand.

I disagree. I've driven a Tesla, but decided to buy different brands of EV, and I also keep an ICE car. I have a Leaf (OK car, not fancy, but super cheap to own and operate), and a Mustang EV (Very nice to drive car, with nicer fit/finish than a Tesla and a proper instrument cluster, but kinda expensive). I dont think Teslas are magic in any way, but I DO think Tesla as a company, and Elon Musk have done a lot of innovation in this field and should be credited with making the product class viable.

My PGE rates have been increased significantly, and now I pay 36 cents per kwh, which is reducing the fuel savings a lot. Still less than gas, but not enough less to write home about. Actually the PGE rates are really punishing to California EV owners now, and I expect this will reduce demand in CA. This is because of transmission line maintenance and fire settlements... it has little to do with electricity production costs, its just that PGE defrays these grid costs on a per kwh basis so those of us who drive EV pay a disproportionate share of grid upkeep. For people who don't have PGE super high rates, the savings will be much more compelling. But I do get the HOV stickers which are a valuable subsidy.

For those of us paying 36 cents per kwh and $5 per gallon gas, a Prius is probably similar operating cost to my Leaf and cheaper than my mustang EV. For people who have better (15 c/kwh) electric rates, an EVs will easily beat a Prius for operating cost.

DeficitHawk says

This is because of transmission line maintenance and fire settlements... it has little to do with electricity production costs

Not in Alameda County, which only uses PG&E for transmission. They buy their juice from Wind/Solar bullshit sources and the rates are soaring. LCOE is point blank financial fraud and should be prosecuted as such.

UkraineIsTotallyFucked says

Not in Alameda County, which only uses PG&E for transmission. They buy their juice from Wind/Solar bullshit sources and the rates are soaring

Im in alameda county, but I don't understand this comment. PGE publishes its wholesale energy acquisition costs, but those costs are typically 5 cents or less per kwh. The other 30 cents per kwh I have to pay are all transmission maintenance, fire damages, and institutional bloat I assume.

socal2 says

WookieMan says

Taxes are a coming.

I already pay high registration fees for my EV in California so those costs have already been baked in the cake.

They haven't yet. I'm talking motor fuel tax that all ICE cars pay. Your state is actively talking about charging EV's per mile driven, posted before https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/california-gas-tax-drivers-charge-miles/3544491/#:~:text=of%20miles%20driven.-,Gas%20tax%20revenues%20are%20starting%20to%20dry%20up%20with%20the,about%203%20cents%20per%20mile.

This is just the tip of the iceberg. They cannot pass this on to ICE vehicles, that will never work as they already pay MFT. Depending on distances driven it's likely $6-12/wk. It's just a "test" but you know damn well it will become law in your state and many others.

We need roads regardless of how green a state wants to be. Not talking about drivers. The roads have to be paid for and you're getting a free ride right now and it will come to an end. I know this business and how government operates more than anyone on this forum. Your cost of ownership/charging WILL go up.

What once looked good not paying for gas is going to be more expensive factoring in the price of the car. If you enjoy driving it I won't shit on any EV owner. I'm just letting you know it's not cheaper and will be more expensive than an ICE vehicle shortly to operate. It's not an if, it's when.