patrick.net

socal2 says

Can a Toyota drive itself door to door like my Model Y has been doing all summer with the free FSD trial?

Not everybody puts value into this kind of thing. I, for one, don't want to babysit a robot when I can simply drive myself. If you still need to be alert and ready to intervene it's easier for me to do it while driving than while just sitting there and trying to not fall asleep.

WookieMan says

Side note. I wouldn't even qualify for the tax credit. So I'd pay full price for a Tesla.

Enjoy my tax money.... Enjoy your road paid for by ICE cars that you need to drive your free riding EV on. This is why people think EV drivers are pompous ass holes. Killing trees. Damaging the roads. Burdening the electric grid. Mining minerals unethically to drive around in an overpriced golf cart. Winning as Charlie Sheen would say.

It's a myth that Tesla's are appreciably heavier than equivalent ICE cars. Average vehicle weight in the US is 4,300 lbs. The mid-size Model Y weighs 4,416 pounds.

How much road damage, traffic congestion, pollution and money we spend do you think hundreds of thousands of fuel tanker trucks have on US roads hauling gas around to fill up gas stations every single day? How much electricity do we use - just to refine oil into gasoline at our refineries? How much of our foreign policy is dictated by keeping Islamists and totalitarians happy to keep oil production high and the cost down?

As an aside, Edmund's model for recommending prices to negotiate to is not really working on Teslas, because you can't negotiate with Tesla.

Eric Holder says

Not everybody puts value into this kind of thing. I, for one, don't want to babysit a robot when I can simply drive myself. If you still need to be alert and ready to intervene it's easier for me to do it while driving than while just sitting there and trying to not fall asleep.

Eventually you won't have to babysit it at all and it will be full Level 4 robotaxi. I pretty much have zero intervention drives and love arriving at my destination relaxed and rested.

Even now, Tesla's FSD is about is 98.8% there which is a HUGE value for some people, especially old and young drivers who make up the majority of car accidents and fatalities.

The freedom and improved quality of life self driving cars will provide humanity will be substantial - and no one is remotely close to doing what Tesla has already achieved with their FSD. There is no way Cruise or Waymo can scale up using uber-expensive LIDAR sensors and having to map every city out.

socal2 says

Enjoy your road paid for by ICE cars that you need to drive your free riding EV on.

We've been through this many times: socal2 (judging by the handle alone) is in CA, which means he pays additional EV fees on par with what average driver of efficient gas car would pay in gas tax.

Eric Holder says

As an aside, Edmund's model for recommending prices to negotiate to is not really working on Teslas, because you can't negotiate with Tesla.

That is another great feature of Tesla.

You never have to dick around with a middleman Dealer who will markup MSRP and then try to rape you on maintenance for the next 10 years.

I have a warranty item to fix on my car next week and I just requested service through my phone app and they are coming to my house to swap out a sensor with my car parked on the driveway. Couldn't be easier.

socal2 says

Even now, Tesla's FSD is about is 98.8% there which is a HUGE value for some people, especially old and young drivers who make up the majority of car accidents and fatalities.

Yeah, when (and if) I'm 95, falling asleep no matter what I do and don't mind dying all that much anyway, the value of FSD for me will go up for sure. As for young kids - it's a hard no. You put one of these in a driver seat of FSD-equipped Tesla and you better believe there will be no monitoring and situational awareness whatsoever. Until FSD is certified to drive without supervision it's not a good solution for young drivers.

Home charging is cheapest, about 7$ , I am getting more data.

200 miles range keeping 20% to 80% charge

Super charger cost 10-13 $ since it charged 38 c kw

Though it's not economic in short time, working on solar to charge my car.

KgK one says

Home charging is cheapest, about 7$

Per 10 kWh? This is anal rape.

Eric Holder says

You put one of these in a driver seat of FSD-equipped Tesla and you better believe there will be no monitoring and situational awareness whatsoever. U

There is a camera in the car and it disengages and warns you if you are not paying attention to the road for too long. So much safer to have a human generally aware of the environment around them and not just focusing on the car ahead letting the car do the majority of the work using all its cameras that can see 360 degrees around the car.

Based on the last month driving FSD, while not perfect - it certainly drives better than my H.S. aged kids and 83 YO mother in law.

socal2 says

There is a camera in the car and it disengages and warns you if you are not paying attention to the road for too long. So much safer to have a human generally aware of the environment around them

Then there was a 40 y.o. guy who run under a semi while watching fucking Disney movie on a player he placed on the dash in front of him so for the nanny cam it looked like he was looking at the road ahead of him. 🤡 Your average 18yo will figure a way to scroll instagram and post dick picks while appeasing the Big Brother in no time. Little fucks are sneaky like that.

Besides, to be able to jump from "being generally aware" into meaningful action you need to able to read the road situation. Such ability comes with driving experience. Watching robot drive does not give you any such experience. That's why young drivers should learn driving in "dumb" cars.

Pretty much what socal2 has stated:

Patrick says

socal2 says

Absurd comparison. Can a Toyota drive itself door to door like my Model Y has been doing all summer with the free FSD trial? Does Toyota have the highest safety rating off all time like the Model Y has?

Don't get into accidents? I drive door to door just fine without help besides my brain. Not sure why people trust that tech. I'm glad the car that tracks every move you makes is cool?

It's not absurd. 0-60 times and FSD isn't worth $20k. That's worth 5-10 years worth of gas and maintenance on that sized car. The Toyota is just fine for less and is bigger. Model Y is NOT a SUV. It's a hatchback.

And no, per mile driven EV's 100% don't pay their fair share. I don't care the state. I don't care the weight. A semi weighing 80k is paying exponentially more for your roads than an EV. Registration fees are laughable. You don't pay or understand MFT.

WookieMan says

It's not absurd. 0-60 times and FSD isn't worth $20k.

I have a slightly-under-6-seconds ICE car and I don't use its full acceleration ability more than maybe once per month. This is basically an equivalent of Model3 RWD performance, so slow by Tesla standards. I'm still way ahead of everybody from every stop light though. Even in a truck which is comparatively slow as fuck. I had faster rental Teslas (MY LR, for example, which is a 4.5 sec car, iirc) and, aside from giving it the beans couple of times on the first day just to see what is it capable of, all that performance went mostly unused. Watching range drop like a fucking rock after every spirited launch didn't help either. So if we are being adults about it, paying for 0-60 under 7-8 seconds is a want, not need. And a dubious want at that. An 8 second car will have no problem keeping up with traffic, merging into freeways, passing on the two-lane roads, etc.

DeficitHawk says

"Back to the title of this thread though... Is it more expensive to buy
gas or electricity for a car?.. For me, a gallon of gas is $5.00, and 10 kWh from
PG&E is $3.60. So that's the answer."

@DeficitHawk

You also need to add the cost of the battery to your daily cost calculations.

a. How long before you need to replace the battery and
b. How much will it cost?

A while back we had this in the news:

Man Blows Up His Tesla Model S Instead of Replacing the Battery...
https://www.cnn.com/videos/us/2021/12/30/tesla-exploded-dynamite-repair-costs-22k-moos-pkg-vpx.cnn

The_Deplorable says

You also need to add the cost of the battery to your daily cost calculations.

No I don't. The question asked in this thread is just "which is more expensive... fueling a car with gas or fueling with electricity?" 1 gallon = 10kwh, multiply your electricity cost by 10 and compare to a gallon of gas in your area. Give or take, this is a fair answer to the question.

Maintenance, depreciation, performance, joy of driving, total cost of ownership, time spent detouring for gas... time spent at electric chargers... time spent changing oil and brake pads.. used vs new prices, subsidies, etc etc... those are all topics people can talk about, but its not the question asked at the top of this thread. The question asked at the top of this thread is to compare the cost of gas to the cost of electricity. The answer to this question is very simple to answer, and I did it for you. Of course, the rage bait analysis offered in the OP is totally out to lunch with apples to oranges comparisons and makes no sense whatsoever.

The lowest total cost of ownership car I can imagine would be a used Nissan Leaf in good condition. Super cheap to buy. Super cheap to own. Cheap to insure. I've never had to replace a battery in any of the 3 electric cars I've had, they are pretty much life of the vehicle. I'm sure some people will have to after 150-200k miles... but then, I've had to replace a gas engine after 200k miles too... so ymmv when considering high mileage component failures.

I acknowledge a used Prius is also pretty low total cost of ownership, on par with a Leaf in areas with high PG&E electric prices.

Eric Holder says

I have a slightly-under-6-seconds ICE car and I don't use its full acceleration ability more than maybe once per month.

With a Tesla, you use it all the time because you are not making obnoxious noise, you are not spinning your tires out and it is so easy to slow down with regen without even having to tap your friction brakes. It is shocking how easy and smooth it is to get to 80 mph. So nice having that torque and power on the freeway when you need to slot into a section. Totally effortless.

Even in my dumpy little Chevy Bolt, it was so quick and stealthy that I was always smoking people on the freeway.

socal2 says

With a Tesla, you use it all the time because you are not making obnoxious noise, you are not spinning your tires out and it is so easy to slow down with regen without even having to tap your friction brakes.

You calling the glorious song of a high-revving engine "obnoxious noise"? =))

I don't do it often, because there is no need for it in daily driving, that's all. And, as noted above, I rented many a Tesla.

Oh, it doesn't shock me in the least:



https://issuesinsights.com/2024/06/26/if-the-nations-power-grid-cant-cope-with-ai-hows-it-supposed-to-handle-millions-of-evs/

socal2 says

With a Tesla, you use it all the time because you are not making obnoxious noise, you are not spinning your tires out and it is so easy to slow down with regen without even having to tap your friction brakes. It is shocking how easy and smooth it is to get to 80 mph. So nice having that torque and power on the freeway when you need to slot into a section. Totally effortless.

With CA traffic??? You crazy talking. Traffic is shit as a visitor/tourist. 80mph? Unless you're going east I don't think I've been close to hitting 80mph and usually it's a 40mph merge best case.

I don't spin my tires or make noise. I don't speed. Or drive recklessly, which 0-60 in 4 seconds is technically illegal in most states. Speeding up and changing lanes is also illegal in most states. Should be slowing down and moving to the right.

Not shitting on you Socal or other patnet users, but speeding and acceleration are kind of small dick syndrome behaviors. Not sure the point. I'll drive the speed limit and keep my licenses and not pay tickets. Worked for 22 years. I know too many dip shits with driving infractions and DUI because they were stupid. Just drive a car safe. It doesn't need to be fast.

WookieMan says

With CA traffic??? You crazy talking. Traffic is shit as a visitor/tourist. 80mph? Unless you're going east I don't think I've been close to hitting 80mph and usually it's a 40mph merge best case.

I'm in north San Diego County and don't hit much traffic on the freeways. And we have a ton of really nice 3 lane arterial roads all over including fun hills and straights. I've said before that I live in a really fun driving area.

WookieMan says

Not shitting on you Socal or other patnet users, but speeding and acceleration are kind of small dick syndrome behaviors. Not sure the point.

I'm addicted to the massive torque and acceleration. I just can't get over it along with the regenerative braking which make for a different way of driving. Like having access to a rollercoaster with a small press of the accelerator.

It would be small dick if I was driving a loud and obnoxious car, belching out exhaust and drawing attention to me. But I can zip around quickly in my Tesla without making a scene or bothering anyone. Especially since there are a bazillion Teslas driving really fast on the road around where I live.

Wow! Who here on PatNet said this was a problem?

And who here on PatNet said that was bullshit or tried to deflect with bullshit of their own?
.

Of the 211 developers surveyed by Xendee, a California-based software company, 75% said that electric grid limitations are among the biggest roadblock to building EV charging infrastructure. The total cost of the infrastructure was a problem for 63% of the respondents, and permitting delays were cited by 53% of those surveyed.

Many of Xendee’s clients, according to Utility Dive, have resorted to installing gas- or diesel- powered generators to run their charging stations.

The Biden administration has gone all in on a future of EV's, but that looks unlikely to happen, given poor planning and market forces.

https://justthenews.com/politics-policy/energy/three-out-four-ev-charging-developers-say-they-cant-get-enough-electricity

Where's all that magically supercheap solar power and windmill shit that was to make sure this would never happen?

Where the flying fuck is all this money for the 'green transition' really going?

C'mon Greentards and Teslatards! WTF happened?

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

Wow! Who here on PatNet said this was a problem?

You did. I did. EV's are math and I'm not even good at it. They were never viable if you factor in the cost of similar cars. And you can't do shit with them. The CT is going to be an absolute flop for Tesla.

Millennials are having kids. I don't want a truck to fit 3 kids on a bench seat. They build sedans. NO one is building a large SUV because it would be $150k for a fucking car I can get for $60k. The fact they haven't even done a minivan is hysterical. You'd get the MILF buying them and the cucked men. I don't mind Elon, but he's failed in this regard with tiny cars for baby men. Get a real fucking SUV and I'd maybe be a customer.

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

It's Solyndra 2.0:

I don't like EV's as you know. But how hard is it to put in a charging spot? Pull a permit, talk to the electric utility for trenching and meter, do a locate and put in the charger. There's no EPA testing that needs to be done as most chargers, at least in IL, are at gas stations anyway. All the heavy lifting has been done.

$5B should have gotten 1,000 chargers easy. The problem is shit like prevailing wage and unions. Maybe just hire a small company to install said chargers and they pay their employees what they want. Federal money is a flying bitch with diarrhea to deal with. Doing it now with my board. No one has inside connections but we're basically limited on what and who we can use for a construction project. Can't use local companies for things like plumbing or electric that could be on site in minutes. Nope, has to be some union company from Chicago 60 miles away.

I legit shut down at my last board meeting. Told them I was pissed off and didn't say another word the whole meeting. We are basically forced to hire certain companies by the Federal government, as a government body because we got money from them. I've know it, but the whole fucking thing is a racket.

socal2 says

Russia loses more troops in a single week in Ukraine than America lost in Iraq in 12 years.

Source?

What are the actual casualties in the Ukrainian war?

WookieMan says

But how hard is it to put in a charging spot? Pull a permit, talk to the electric utility for trenching and meter, do a locate and put in the charger. There's no EPA testing that needs to be done as most chargers, at least in IL, are at gas stations anyway. All the heavy lifting has been done.

In case this isn't rhetorical, I answered this very issue here:

https://patrick.net/post/1381647/2024-07-13-assassination-attempt-trump-butler-pa?start=400#comment-2081538

Onvacation says

socal2 says

Russia loses more troops in a single week in Ukraine than America lost in Iraq in 12 years.

Source?

What are the actual casualties in the Ukrainian war?

What source would meet your standards? Obviously US and UK intelligence estimates is no good. Ukrainian? Even worse. How about Pukin
himself? Good enough?

Russian President Vladimir Putin has stated that the Russian army loses 20,000 combat troops in Ukraine every month.
...

According to analysts, Putin has suggested that 5,000 Russian soldiers die in combat in Ukraine every month. Considering the standard ratio of wounded to killed as three to one, approximately 15,000 Russian servicemen are wounded every month.

Wikipedia puts US KIA at 4,507 for the whole Iraq war.

@RWSGFY what the hell is this Ukraine stuff doing in this thread?

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

RWSGFY what the hell is this Ukraine stuff doing in this thread?

Ask @Onvacation.

RWSGFY says

DemocratsAreTotallyFucked says

RWSGFY what the hell is this Ukraine stuff doing in this thread?

Ask Onvacation.

ask @socal2

Onvacation says

ask socal2

Of course.

Rumor has it that Ford is dropping electric F-150.

RWSGFY says

Rumor has it that Ford is dropping electric F-150.

Nooooo shit.

RWSGFY says

Rumor has it that Ford is dropping electric F-150.

I actually wanted one of those. Maybe now the price will come down to reasonable.

HeadSet says

RWSGFY says

Rumor has it that Ford is dropping electric F-150.

I actually wanted one of those. Maybe now the price will come down to reasonable.

Fiskers got reasonable, lol.

socal2 says

That is over 60% of the available US car market!

Tesla can't be everything for everyone, but the available US market is plenty big.

You live in CA. Where I live in IL I'd be constantly worried about running out of juice. I'm going to Wisconsin tomorrow and would need to charge on the way up making the trip 30 minutes longer and then having to use a friends electric to charge.

Go to Bozeman, MT and go for a hike in an EV. Enjoy being stranded. It's an hour in mountains one way and there's nothing in range to charge. You're climbing from 4k to 9k feet to get to a good hike or activity. Fishing. Throw in rugged roads.

CA is a big state. Mostly urban. EV's don't work in most of the country once you factor in cold weather. EV lovers need to get out of their bubble.

WookieMan says

You live in CA. Where I live in IL I'd be constantly worried about running out of juice. I'm going to Wisconsin tomorrow and would need to charge on the way up making the trip 30 minutes longer and then having to use a friends electric to charge.

I just got back from a week vacation visiting relatives in Michigan, Ohio and Indiana. I rented a GMC (Arcadia?) and we drove over 800 miles. Alot of it was on back country roads and away from the freeways. But I ran my route through Tesla's navigation and there were still plenty of Tesla Superchargers that would make the drive totally easy.

The GMC didn't even have adaptive cruise control......let alone lane assist. It was tiring and less enjoyable to have to manually drive all 800 miles. But it did have a big gas tank and we only had to fill up a few times.