patrick.net

"American" car companies can't just be "as good" as their "foreign" competition. They have decades of screw ups to earn back the respect of buyers.

Why do I give a shit how many people GM or ford employ? 50,000 people isn't making a damned bit of difference in the economy.

If you want to keep Americans employed in good jobs, stop shopping at wal-mart and target.

Tritan engines, spitting spark plugs... I'll buy toyota before I buy a ford.

I am open to buying American cars. One reason we chose Lexus was because it had RWD (I think FWD handles funny). The Caddy CTS looks really nice but it is a bit pricey. I really wish Buick would go back to RWD. And I wish more cars will have a 2-ton curb weight. I am not thrilled about all these talks on weight-reduction and fuel efficiency. Safety first. No safety feature can defeat the law of physics. A heavier vehicle, ceteris paribus, is always safer.

One thing though, American cars seem to depreciate faster than Japanese cars, so the total cost of ownership may be higher than it is apparent from the MSRP.

On the other hand, I think it is very American to buy the best product, regardless of its origin. I do not care what other people think, but consumerism has its merit.

If you want to keep Americans employed in good jobs, stop shopping at wal-mart and target.

I have a different philosophy. As America grows, there will be new good jobs with a whole new level of value-adding. Now, in order to grow, we have to follow the most economically optimized path.

Some of these statements saddened me, especially EllieMAE's comments about never being willing to buy American. It is important to support our country and no communist, socialist or dictatorial run country will ever concern themselves with the welfare of our citizens. American vehicles have come a long way in terms of safety and design. I think our car brands have been stigmatized as "unreliable" just like foreign trucks have been stigmatized as "less manly". Yes, it will take time for both foreign and American vehicles to break these stigmas. Someone mentioned who cares about 50,000 jobs...well, if we look at the entire supply chain of American car companies we are talking like 250,000 jobs. Some of your comments have made me realize Americans have lost their pride, dignity and integrity. We will never be #1 or a close #2 in every industry with attitudes like these and I am unwilling to settle for falling behind as industry leaders.

An American buying foreign vehicle's is the equivalent of a wolf eating its young....respectfully, are these views of a liberal socialist, conservative or a fuckin' AMERICAN?

4X says

Someone mentioned who cares about 50,000 jobs…well, if we look at the entire supply chain of American car companies we are talking like 250,000 jobs.

No, we aren't, because the distribution of supply chains doesn't look anything like the distribution of manufacturing bases. If GM, Ford, and Chrysler sold 0% of all cars next year, there would be the same demand for parts.

Most of those parts already come from foreign sources, and the parts that come domestically are still purchased by Toyota, Honda, VW, and others.

I really don't give a shit about America being "#1" in an industry that should have died 30 years ago. Automobiles are a gross waste of resources, and they should only still exist for industrial and commercial use.

Yea - but when I die, I want to come back as either a boy's first car or a middle- aged man's vanity car. Either way, I'd be treated like gold. :)

I had a bad experience with a Ford when I was a young man. It was my first new car, and it was a Lemon. I replaced it with a Honda, and never had a complaint. I treat cars like I treat houses... value for the money. The next time I need to buy a car, I'll certainly consider American. I drive over 30k miles/year, so reliability and longevity are my main concerns. Good gas millage is an added bonus.

Why are Americans not supporting those 34,000 American Workers by buying the below cars made here in the USA?

Perhaps if automaker execs had not fuxored their business and product so badly, the decision might be easier? I try to "buy American" whenever I can, but when it comes to cars, I also have to factor in design, comfort, fuel and maintenance costs. Like Kevin noted, US auto makers have some bad history to overcome. It's not about the workers, it's about the companies regaining our trust--simple as that.

I would like a 400hp, V8 powered, RWD, 3,000#, 6 pass family sedan, from GM.
I listed some auto ideas on the old site, so gree folks would stop popping off about electric cars and Prius and crap like that. We import Armada's and Tundra's and Kubota's and Mitsu powered semi's. So, hush. lol

Here's the secret, American cars are getting F'ed by smog rules and CAFE(sp) rules and Nadar's dumb ass.

We can build the car I asked for in a flash. A full parameter frame, ala NASCAR, would be cheaper, lighter, stronger, and easier to repair. A simple V8 design with rugged drive systems will sell like crazy. Make AWD available for snow folks. A body made like a DuPont garbage can that is molded in color and flexable and light and cheap and easy to repair. A direct injected turbo charged 400 CU.IN V8 with about 400hp. A four speed man or auto with a gearvendors OD available as a direct mount. A drop out center style rear gear (ala 9" Ford) with full floating axels. This is old tech that is strong and simple. And stop bolting crap on the car when it reaches 3,000#. I'll buy two.

The key to mileage is weight. Lets stick with LBS per HP per Gal. I know fuels can be expessed as a weaight, but each weighs different so lets keep it simple. The following is an example of how to get your car to be a green car:

The way to gain MPH is to lose weight and gain power per gallon (efficiant use of fuel). If you want a green car and great mileage RIGHT NOW, then go outside and do this: remove all creature comforts, no A/C, no extra duct work just a defrost vent to the front glass, no radio, no glove box, no pass side sun visor, no rollup windows - remove the glass and the frames and the cranks and rivit in fixed plexi-glass for side windows, all glass (except front window) removed and replaced with plexi-glass (down windows disrupt air flow and cut mileage), remove all inner-body bracing in the doors and roof- cut it all out, no radio antenna(no radio - and has drag), no pass side rearview mirror, no back seat, back seat belts and their mounts, no pass seat, no pass seat belts or mounts, no extra exhaust - put the muffler right on the cat and then run a pipe directly to the closest side for exit, remove all bumpers, remove the grill, remove any air valance up front, remove the front fenders, remove the front inner fenders if you can relocate the stuff mounted to them, if not just cut out large holes where you can, remove the trunk lid, remove any inner rear fender panels. Ok ... now your car is lighter and will get better mileage(in town) and you can feel green. For freeway commuting leave the hood and grill in place for better aerodynamics. Enjoy.

@BAP

How much mileage you think we would gain with all of that?

@Kevin

I really don’t give a shit about America being “#1″ in an industry that should have died 30 years ago. Automobiles are a gross waste of resources, and they should only still exist for industrial and commercial use.

If I hadnt read your earlier posts I would see that statement as anti-American, yet, knowing that you are attempting to make the point that we need to invest in alternative modes of transportation I can accept it for what it is. I agree with you that we need to up our investment in public transportation (Subways, Buses, etc.) however, we also need to be #1 in every industry if we want to maintain our prominence. Obiviously, this industry is not going away anytime soon.

Even with some American companies offshoring their manufacturing, buying American products ultimately supports the American Worker because these companies are based in the USA. Now, should these companies go out of business due to lack of support for the product then I say that our consumers are being anti-american.

for me to answer honestly we need a subject car for a base - then I'll give it a best guess using real world stuff.

the gain will be simply from weight loss .. but it is not infinite. A basic idea of a car weighs "X" and it takes "Y" gallons per hour per pound @40 mph. Since we did not modify the engine's ability to create HP, HP is not a factor. The lighter car may react as if it has more HP, but that is just a seat-of-the-pants thing. We now weigh .75X and may very well only need .80Y to go 40 mph. I doubt the gains will ever be even percentages of gain. THe weight trimmed is specific to the car. Do this to a 1974 Monte Carlo 4 door and you remove almost 1,000 pounds. The motor will react like you put on a turbo and the car will get much better mileage. Do it to a 1972 MG Sprite and the gains would not be noticed all that much. This idea falls short on very high powered vehicles that are geared low. If the engine in not being made to "work", then the mileage will remain flat.

Another bonus, brakes and clutches and tires all last alot longer on lighter cars.

I bet if you filled a bunch of water jugs and laden your car down with 1,000# of water and went out and did a mileage test it would show that MPG reacts to weight pretty well, but the changes need to be dramatic of done for very long durations. Same with aero improvements .. either shape the thing like a salt-flats bullet, or make small changes and drive a steady 65mph for 8 hours. Otherwise you do not see any changes. Small changes and small driving show no gains. Big changes and lots of driving make the gains super obvious.

Baseball, Hotdogs, Applepie, and Chevrolet.

4X says

we also need to be #1 in every industry if we want to maintain our prominence.

Two problems with that:

#1 is that it's not possible to be #1 in every industry, and any institution (business, government, etc.) that tries to do all will fail. Besides that, we don't have enough people to be #1 at everything.

#2 is that it's wholly unnecessary to be #1 in every industry. There are 6 people people in the world who are our potential customers -- I'm quite certain that whatever industries we choose to excel in will provide us with a great standard of living.

The global economy is not a zero-sum game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with some countries being better at certain things than others, and it's best for countries to focus on what they do well and trade with one another for what they don't.

For instance, it would be stupid to attempt to harvest tropical fruits in North America commercially. Similarly, Japan would be a bad place to start a lumber company.

@staynumz

LOL....I remember this story. They later found out she hadnt taken her meds.

"Im President Charley!"....LOL

I would like a 400hp, V8 powered, RWD, 3,000#, 6 pass family sedan, from GM.

400 hp cars are sure fun...I've driven a few. Of course, the gas goes away quickly at full throttle, even with a turbo LOL. Part of me would love to drive full-throttle, indifferent to pollution, mileage, or future $5 gasoline prices. Even with a turbo 250hp 4cyl engine in a modern car--that thing guzzles the gas like a pumped engine should.

On another note, did anyone notice how the new owner of Chrysler (Fiat) plans to sell their own models through US dealerships--including Alfa Romeos? That should be interesting...while it lasts. LOL.

@Kevin

The global economy is not a zero-sum game. There is absolutely nothing wrong with some countries being better at certain things than others, and it’s best for countries to focus on what they do well and trade with one another for what they don’t.

For instance, it would be stupid to attempt to harvest tropical fruits in North America commercially. Similarly, Japan would be a bad place to start a lumber company.

I see your points. I just think we have to do like you say and provide incentives for business growth.

THe amount of fuel used by any engine is the same vs amount of air when tuned optimum. So, if an engine is tuned properly and uses todays computer tech to control air/fuel mixtures and valve timing from idle to WOT the pollution per gallon is flat. Menaing you could idle out 10 gallons of gas, or dump ten gallons while blasting down 5 to Kettleman City for some steaks, if the engine is tuned properly - the same pounds of air and fuel would pass through the engine.

I've had 500+ under my foot, but only on the racetrack. These Otto engines like more compression, more chamber heat, and less rotating weight. NIssan and Toyota have the right idea if you look into their engine programs they take track tech and put it on the street. And they use exotic metals everywhere.

A GM designed all alluminum 90* V8 with 4.155" bore X 3.500" stroke light weight crank, 5.75" light weight rod, 12:1 compression ratio lite pistons, a mild cam, 2.02 lite int valve, 1.65 lite ex valve, alluminum performance head, alluminum intake, alluminum water pump, will save about 30% in total weight vs same motor in iron, will make an easy 400hp with a good injection system, will last 200K if treated right, 100K if not. The point I make is this tech is 40 years old, and it is not in American cars because of the nanny stater's ability to force American cars to not build power per pound. We were told it was insurance companies that wanted slow turds for cars ... all the while datsun was sending us 260Z, 280Z, 280zx and Toyota had that hopped up RWD celica. Each had amazing power-per-pound. It was all poop to make America build Ford Fiesta and Chevy Chevettes and make people buy them to feel green ... hmmmm sounds a little bit like the whole Prius crap again huh?

Bap33 says

The point I make is this tech is 40 years old, and it is not in American cars because of the nanny stater’s ability to force American cars to not build power per pound. We were told it was insurance companies that wanted slow turds for cars … all the while datsun was sending us 260Z, 280Z, 280zx and Toyota had that hopped up RWD celica. Each had amazing power-per-pound. It was all poop to make America build Ford Fiesta and Chevy Chevettes and make people buy them to feel green … hmmmm sounds a little bit like the whole Prius crap again huh?

That's bullcrap. Car companies make what they think will sell. Period. Did the "nanny staters or insurance companies" stop GM from making Hummers?

how much of these 'american' cars are made in Canada & Mexico?
I once saw a report that listed the 'american %' in each car, shockingly lot of american cars are assembled some where else. On the contrary, lot of Japanese companies have plants here. For example Subaru has a plant in INdiana.
I want to support American industry. But I get turned off with all this 'flag waiving'. You want to compete in a auto market, you have to invent more than a giant tank/SUV that has 16 cupholders. For a while only thing American companies improved was number of cup-holders, vehicles got bigger and bigger. While toyota did the first practical hybrid car.
So start inventing....
And it is funny, American car buyers tend to be the 'free market advocates'.
And I am certainly not going to spend my hard-earned money to support a company that pays millions to in-competent CEOs with billions of bailout money. Haven't I given enough?

Um, no, that is bull crap, CAFE standards, Ralph Nadar(sp), and other non-market forces have shaped American cars since the first pretend gas shortage. Ford- The Pinto, Fiesta; Mopar -The Pacer, Gremlin; GM - The Sunbird, Chevette. These cars were not EVER demanded by the population of America ... they were used to manipulate the market in favor of Japanees cars using the same "pro-green" anti-gas crap of today. If I am wrong, then tell me why the V8 RWD multi-passenger American truck sales EXPLODED when American cars went to all FWD cars.

Lets go over the whole push for diesel powered cars in the mid 70's too. Are you ready to say that was market driven or political driven? THose crappy Olds diesels never worked.

The Caddy 8,6,4 motor was stupid then, but Dodge just tried it again with the Hemi ... friggin stupid.

GM made Hummers to Military Spec .. not consumer spec .. and a few elite people bought them directly from the comapny that did the modifing ... and THEN, GM made some Hummer-like SUVs. And the leftisits went bonkers about it. Now the Hummer is just another SUV.

American car companies do not build what will sell, they build what they are allowed to sell. Period.

Nanny staters have had their impact on all of American life .. including car choice. Period.

Bap33 says

American car companies do not build what will sell, they build what they are allowed to sell. Period.

Umm, you know that cafe standards apply to foreign makers as well, right? So, it's a level playing field. I didn't say that American car makers make cars that sell, I said that they make cars that they THINK will sell. Obviously, they are often wrong. Which is one of the many reasons whey they are all bankrupt.

here you go , American Made Index :
http://www.cars.com/go/advice/Story.jsp?section=top&subject=ami&story=amMade0808

Ford-F150 is #1. Also plenty of Toyota's in there....

The point I make is this tech is 40 years old, and it is not in American cars because of the nanny stater’s ability to force American cars to not build power per pound.

Hmm...dunno. Management would probably build it if they thought they could sell it. After all, high-output cars are a niche-market, such as Porsche's 500hp turbo--only so many can be made and sold. And despite the strength of Germany's "nanny state" auto unions, plenty of well-designed performance autos are built, marketed, and sold. If we want to discuss automotive fiascos such as the VW Phaeton or the Porsche SUV "Cayenne", the blame rests solely on strategic decisions...specifically of Ferdinand Piech. I hear that Germany's auto unions are a real PITA, but at least they're making something other than crappy SUVs. For a while, SUVs generated a nice profit for GM, but that decision has cost them in the downturn. Hummer is basically a non-entity now, LOL.

GM did have a 415-HP Pontiac G8. But why? A performance car has much to do with things other than the engine.

By the way, I may consider buying a used VW Phaeton. I love the 2.5-ton curb weight. Or will I be better off with a used A8?

GM did have a 415-HP Pontiac G8. But why?

I liked those Holdens from Australia (rebadged as Pontiacs) They had decent handling too, but never sold well. Between an A8 and a Phaeton, I would choose the Audi because in the long-run, getting maintenance done would probably be more cost-effective (Only dealers might know Phaetons). I'd skip a 12 cyl engine on the Phaeton too. Or better yet--maybe an Audi S8? It's the sport version of the A8, with a bit more HP (450). :)

S8? Like that one in Ronin? :-)

I heard that performance cars cost a lot more in maintenance (e.g. different tires for front and rear). Is that true?

If I get a 2005 Audi, will it still be reliable 5 years in the future (2014-2015)? Our 6-year-old Toyota seems to be a lot more trouble-free than the Volvo we had when it was 6 years old.

Perhaps we should have a "I hate front wheel drive" thread. :-)

I am mostly a speed-limit driver and yet I cannot stand the handling of FWD cars. Besides, I have never seen a FWD car with more than 300 lb/ft of torque. Perhaps it is a physical limitation or something like that.

Yeah...Ronin, great movie! For reliability, I don't think you can beat a Honda or Toyota--maybe someday GM will compare, but not now. I have an 2002 Audi A4 Quattro. I like the car, but I'm not sure I'd buy another--too much maintenance for me. Tires for performance cars cost more to replace because they have higher speed ratings--and usually wear out quicker. My stock tires are like $250 each.

I cannot stand the handling of FWD cars....Perhaps it is a physical limitation or something like that.

Yeah, all that torque to the same wheels while you're trying to steer imbalances the handling. Before my Audi, I had the last model of the Honda Prelude w/200HP. It was a great car, but the power up front felt uneasy if I really pushed it hard--the A4 is much better w/Quattro, while being a heavier car. Audis also have a great stability management system. It's literally impossible to slide the car because the power and braking is managed by an onboard computer, keeping the car on track. For example, I go out to a gravel lot near Shoreline Amphitheater to practice controlled slides. I have to switch the system off to get the car to slide at all--on gravel! I consider it the best feature next to the AWD.

@Permenant_Marker

how much of these ‘american’ cars are made in Canada & Mexico?
I once saw a report that listed the ‘american %’ in each car, shockingly lot of american cars are assembled some where else. On the contrary, lot of Japanese companies have plants here. For example Subaru has a plant in INdiana.
I want to support American industry. But I get turned off with all this ‘flag waiving’. You want to compete in a auto market, you have to invent more than a giant tank/SUV that has 16 cupholders. For a while only thing American companies improved was number of cup-holders, vehicles got bigger and bigger. While toyota did the first practical hybrid car.

My point is not how many cars are made overseas but how many AMERICAN WORKERS these companies employ currently. GM = 34,000 Americans Toyota = 7,000 Americans. GM could offshore 5,000 people and still employ more Americans. Flag waiving shows pride, but yes I agree we need to produce better vehicles...the pictures I have shown above are a good example of the adjustments being made by American auto-makers. Somewhere around 2003 the automakers started realizing they were headed down the wrong path.

Thanks Kurt!

GM = 34,000 Americans Toyota = 7,000 Americans.

Avtovaz employs over 100000 people, but is continuing to make Lada good for Russia?

...is continuing to make Lada good for Russia?

If there's an argument against state-owned industry, it would be the Lada, Skoda, Volga, and now-defunct Trabant automobiles of E.Europe. One could say those cars worked OK, but the simplest of Toyota platforms would easily overshadow them. Maybe there's some hope for the new VW, Hyundai and Toyota plants in Russia?

Hyundai is a dang good car. They followed the K.I.S.S. rule.

4X says

@Permenant_Marker

how much of these ‘american’ cars are made in Canada & Mexico?

I once saw a report that listed the ‘american %’ in each car, shockingly lot of american cars are assembled some where else. On the contrary, lot of Japanese companies have plants here. For example Subaru has a plant in INdiana.

I want to support American industry. But I get turned off with all this ‘flag waiving’. You want to compete in a auto market, you have to invent more than a giant tank/SUV that has 16 cupholders. For a while only thing American companies improved was number of cup-holders, vehicles got bigger and bigger. While toyota did the first practical hybrid car.

My point is not how many cars are made overseas but how many AMERICAN WORKERS these companies employ currently. GM = 34,000 Americans Toyota = 7,000 Americans. GM could offshore 5,000 people and still employ more Americans. Flag waiving shows pride, but yes I agree we need to produce better vehicles…the pictures I have shown above are a good example of the adjustments being made by American auto-makers. Somewhere around 2003 the automakers started realizing they were headed down the wrong path.

If all you care about is how many americans are employed, why not advocate for more wars? After all, the peak employment period in the US was during world war 2.

@Kevin

...it was also the peak point at which GDP to DEBT was at its highest. It takes a lot of money to fund a war.

@BAP

Hyundai is a dang good car. They followed the K.I.S.S. rule.

Are you not a conservative?...you support Hyundai?....here is how I see it, if I planned to raise a family in Japan then I would buy Japanese vehicles and support those 70,000 japanese workers.

@PeterP

GM = 34,000 Americans Toyota = 7,000 Americans.

Avtovaz employs over 100000 people, but is continuing to make Lada good for Russia?

Well, if Russia opened up their markets to foreign companies that opened plants that employed 7,000 Russians I would tell you NO. It is unamerican to continue buying products not produced or developed by local companies. Why?...because it is one and the same as offshoring jobs. If you want economic recovery, then how about bringing manufacturing, service and engineering jobs back to America. We can reduce unemployment by 10% just by bringing jobs back....you know, I am starting to feel like a lot of folks on these threads dont have many American values any longer.

4X says

@BAP

Hyundai is a dang good car. They followed the K.I.S.S. rule.

Are you not a conservative?…you support Hyundai?….here is how I see it, if I planned to raise a family in Japan then I would buy Japanese vehicles and support those 70,000 japanese workers.

Or you could ride Japanese trains which support millions of Japanese workers.

4X says

If you want economic recovery, then how about bringing manufacturing, service and engineering jobs back to America. We can reduce unemployment by 10% just by bringing jobs back…

Woah, so we'd only have a 9% unemployment rate instead of a 10% unemployment rate? Awesome.

Oh, wait -- except for all of those technology, pharmaceutical, consulting, entertainment, heavy machinery, airplane, and (get ready for it) automobile companies that do more business outside of the US than they do domestically and would be hurt more than anyone if unemployment rose in the markets that they serve.

You think the Googles and Apples of the world would still need to employ 30,000+ people if the Chinas and Indias of the world weren't growing so rapidly?

"It was all poop to make America build Ford Fiesta"

Don't diss the fiesta. Fiesta's were never made in America. The ones imported to America were made (very well made) in Germany. I owned 3 during the 80's as daily drivers with a 67 mustang stuffed full of nascar 427 for my weekend toy (10.32 in the quarter, SSBA regional record holder, and major source of street racing income. really good toy) . Fiesta's were one of the most fun little cars ever made. Closest you could come to driving a go cart legally on the street. Tough and very reliable cars that thrived on abuse. Unstoppable in snow. I racked up 450,000 miles between the three even though two suffered premature deaths by getting wrecked while on loan to friends. Really wish I had kept the last one.