patrick.net

I am one of those who believe in the historic co-relation between household incomes and home prices. I have been watching with unconcealed glee as prices crashed and even managed to snag an REO in Texas in 2008. I now notice that Zestimates are starting to go up on ALL the properties that I have in my Zillow favorites. It would suggest to me that we have reached the bottom in housing! I am now scrambling to snag another property before the home prices start back up on their upward curve!!

mikey says

I think Sarah was being facetious with that VP comment. Everyone knows that the veep is second banana but that job doesn’t exactly have a bunch of appeal. Some swingers around here seem to consider her the gorilla their dreams and I’m sure they wouldn’t mind monkeying with her tail if the time was ripe. Well, at least this Chiquita isn’t on the Dole and doesn’t act like a fruit.

I wasn't talking about the "could somebody even tell me" thing, which seemed to be a joke -- I was talking about the "they're in charge of the US senate" comment. Tenpoundbass says

Those You Betcha’s and the word grasping as she reaffirms “in this “Great country of ours… Uh that is America” is a tell that she is soul searching by the seat of her pants for the next words to say, as she reads her audience

She doesn't pause that often or even say "uh" that much -- she just stumbles through sentences that a 12 year old could manage without sounding like a total buffoon. Beyond that, she's a creationist and believes that "the public" should "debate" science. Because, don'tcha know, if people don't believe something to be a fact, it isn't a fact!

How do I get some of those tits benefits at my job?

Some Guy says

I’m tired of it too, but you’re still nitpicking. The utopian concept of communism where the means of production is owned by the people doesn’t exist, and never has. There has never been a true communist country under that definition. So to nitpick about that distinction seems quite meaningless, wouldn’t you say?

No. Communism and socialism are simply not the same thing, or degrees of the same thing. Just because there has never been a (large) communist society does not mean that communism and socialism are the same thing, or that it's OK to equate them as being similar. Socialism has a lot more in common with capitalism than it does with communism, as both are systems assume benevolence on the part of those with "power", but inevitably lead to power hording and controlling the lives of individuals. Some Guy says

That’s nice, except I did no such thing. You read ALL of that into my post. All I did was type the word “communist” and everybody freaked out. Please, please, please, quote where I equated Keynesian economics with socialism, or said anything about failures of socialism.

Why do you assume that all of my comments were directed at you? Some Guy says

A government owned and operated health care system, with hospitals owned by the government and doctors as government employees is not “Keynesian economics” by the way. That is in fact socialism. That ASPECT of the government would be a socialist one. To say, “It’s not socialism because other things are not owned by the government” doesn’t cut it. You can have various socialist elements without it being necessary to say an entire society is socialist.

Of course -- though nobody is seriously considering that type of medical system. The most extreme proposals are for single payer, which is also not socialism. By reasons for "nitpicking", as you say, is that the distortion of this issue is astounding. Instead of having serious debate on the issue of how to fund health care, we keep seeing discussion about fully government owned and operated medical systems as though that was what people were going for (and automatically dismissing that policy by equating it with the failed socialist system of the USSR). That's why I say that people who are intelligent and actually understand the issues need to stop throwing around terms like "socialism" and "communism" (as well as "free market", for that matter) where they're inaccurate or just plain wrong. It's intellectual dishonestly. Do you want people to agree with something because they've been presented with the facts and made a rational decision, or do you want people to agree with something because it has been mischaracterized and presented as something with an inherent negative bias?

angrish says

ctually, understanding the math, as the market continues to contract, the median price will actually move UP, not down. Weird huh. The problem is the word “median”. If 10000 houses sold last year for 200K, the median is 200K. If one house this year sells for 220K, the median is 220k, a 10% rise in prices.

That's not how math works. The median is the point where half of all values are above and half are below. In your scenario, the median is still $200k. There are some systems of calculation that exclude duplicate values, but those are only for very specialized equations and certainly aren't used for house prices. You can't change a median by moving values at the edges. The point still holds for the most part, but please get the math right. A better example would be this: - In year 1, 1000 houses sell for $500k -- the upper end of the market has completely disappeared. Median == $500k. - In year 2, 1000 houses sell for $300k, and 1000 houses sell for $800k. Median == $550k For the people who are in the 'lower' tier of home buyers, it looks disheartening. House prices are up! But the reality is that, for them, house prices are actually down by over 40%. This is exactly what will start to happen as prices on high end homes start to fall and sales pick up.

Kevin, You may have misread angrish's post. My interpretation is: 2008 - 10000 houses sell for $200k, so 2008 median is $200k 2009 - 1 house sells for $220k, so 2009 median is $220k Newspapers then report median increase in 2009 over 2008 Your example is technically correct (since when two numbers bracket the median, you can take the average of the two numbers as the "median"), but is a better example of a mean than a median.

I, for one, am glad that Kevin takes the time to debunk some of the distortions and propaganda that is being thrown around to scare people away from healthcare reform. Thanks, Kevin.

I see lots an lots of cognitive dissonance in this thread. People cannot quite decide whether the villain is private enterprises, or government, or sometimes BOTH at the same time. What does that make such a person, some kind of nihilist or anarchist? I have a theory as to why this is occurring: People who normally were adamantly against government involvement in anything (having been bottle-fed anti-government propaganda since they were young enough to flick on a TV) now have seen lots of evidence (bubbles, financial crises, bailouts, losses, unemployment and general mayhem, ) that private enterprise and "free" markets have lots of imperfections. But at the same time, the just KNOW that regulation and government is ALWAYS evil and awful. So then where do they go? People are literally kicking left and right, and somehow trying to reconcile their world view with the facts "on the ground" to use another trite phrase. It would be amusing if it was not so sad. The solution to most problems of society is that BOTH government AND private enterprise/free markets must be regulated to keep them honest. If we could agree on that, we would at least have a starting point.

The people regulates the government through elections. That is at least the way it is supposed to work. Instead we have corporations regulating the government through monetary donations.

The semantics of semantics. Drfelle exclaimed: >> Semantics! A few weeks ago, Elliemae said (and it stuck in my head) >> Nah, they’re busy slinging names, blaming it on the libs and delving into semantics. At the time. I did not understand what she meant by the expression "delving into semantics." You could say, I did not understand the semantics (==meaning) of the expression. Now I think I do. But it bothers me. The implication is that "semantics", or understanding the meaning or definition of words and concepts, is somehow a contemptible game. Well, it only is if you make it so. I think we should not accuse someone of "semantics" when we are really accusing them of "playing a semantic *game*" of distorting the meaning of a concept. And please, no meta-semantic games about semantics now....

SomeGuy, Haha, don't you understand that you need to be a mind-reader, and the correct answer is either "Tuscan" or "Local". As in: You: Do you want to go for some Local? GF: Uh, which one? You: ???? Or alternatively, you could play some semantic games with her: You: Do you want to go for some local? GF: Excellent idea! You: Ok, let's go to the Mexican one down the street GF: ????

>> and spend less time posting on Patrick.net; maybe then you’ll be able to afford health coverage. Look who's talking. It's always the right-wingers who wants *everyone else* to get off their fat lazy asses. 1/2 :-)

Some Guy, >>So my question is: What else ya got? You're a relative newbie, so you just walked right into that one :-) :-) Do a search on "election system" right here on patrick.net for the answer(*) In short: The problem is that our dysfunctional 2-party duopoly system is caused by our equally dysfunctional election system, which in practise permits only 2 parties to win elections, and hence no free market in political representation. We need to regulate the elections system to get a properly functioning democratic process. (*) Actually, Patrick, it seems that the Google search does not find all older post, or am I mistaken?

>> *chuckle* Me too. That was a classic. It's not a solution unless drfelle says so,

Some Guy says

Teddybearneil says

I am one of those who believe in the historic co-relation between household incomes and home prices. I have been watching with unconcealed glee as prices crashed and even managed to snag an REO in Texas in 2008. I now notice that Zestimates are starting to go up on ALL the properties that I have in my Zillow favorites. It would suggest to me that we have reached the bottom in housing! I am now scrambling to snag another property before the home prices start back up on their upward curve!!

Oooh, Zestimates. Yeah, those are really accurate…

I mean I would love for the home prices to crash further so that I can snag another property for pennies on the dollar..but thanks to the re-flation policies of the Fed/Treasury, it appears that a combination of low interest rates, plenty of loans being originated with only 3% down payment, banks NOT foreclosing on properties and the existing inventory of foreclosed properties pretty much cleared out, I don't see how and when prices will come down further. A bottom with a bounce as another wag suggested, is a possibility, but I am not betting on it. I am definitely going to buy a home if it gives me a monthly positive cash flow by renting it out!!

Patrick, Here's an example of a search term not found: I did a search on "Duverger", and it came up empty. But here's a post that contains the word: http://patrick.net/?p=548#comment-622769 Am I doing something wrong here?

SomeGuy, yes, I was being sarcastic/humorous, partly at my own expense. Humor alert: I think I know your girlfriend, too Or could there be more than one of them? Still more humor: >>Hint: Your sentence should start with “The solution is…”, as opposed to “The problem is…” Are we suddenly playing the game show Jeopardy now, where you do not get points unless you formulate the answer as a question. Jeepers.

>> I have health care….that I pay for….that I don’t bitch about. And therefore, if someone else does not, it must be their own fault?

That's a lot of if-if-if qualifiers there, Doctor Nixon ...

justme says

Well, it only is if you make it so. I think we should not accuse someone of “semantics” when we are really accusing them of “playing a semantic *game*” of distorting the meaning of a concept.

That's exactly my point when I complain about use of terms like "socialism" and "communism". There is a MASSIVE difference between a single-payer "insurance" system and what you might get out of a "socialist" system. When you start throwing around these terms, you're distorting the actual discussion about what is best for our country by bringing fear to the table. If you tell Joe six pack that a single payer system is communism, he's going to automatically reject it, without actually investigating what is being proposed and how it would work. There have been numerous studies that show that people are open to just about anything if you phrase it a certain way. Politicians know this all too well, and people like Karl Rove have made their entire careers on influencing opinion through selective language. drfelle says

If they’re paying for cable TV and INTERNET, eating out, paying for a mortgage they can’t afford, wearing designer clothing, buying Plasma’s/Blu-Rays, having kids out of wed-lock, financing a car, etc, etc, Then YES!

So your basic argument is that it's OK to overpay for health care because there is still a lot to sacrifice? Perhaps we should all live like serfs so that we can afford to pay the insurance companies whatever they ask? That's not a solution. A "solution" means coming up with the best way to reduce the crushing cost of health care on society as a whole. Health care costs have been growing at a rate more than double the general cost of living. That is not sustainable.

Tenpoundbass says

Creation or Evolution, it’s both human interpretation. Exactly how evolved or “Evolution works” for that matter. Is only speculation and theories at this point.

You do realize that a "theory" has actual scientific meaning, right? Saying that something is "only" a theory doesn't somehow denote the status of the research. The theory of Gravity is only a theory, too. That's the whole point of science. Being presented with facts and interpreting those facts. There are no "facts" in creationism -- it's not science, it is theology. Tenpoundbass says

There are Zealots in the Scientific community as any change to their Scientific religion is Heresy and to not believe or question is Blasphemy.

Oh please. There are no real scientists (you know, people with degrees and experience who perform scientific research) who do any such thing. The scientific method requires peer review and reproduction, which is something that global warming deniers, creationists, and people who believe that oil 'grows' out of the ground hate. If you believe that the prevailing scientific knowledge on a given subject is wrong, all you have to do is perform some research that contradicts the existing research. It isn't that hard to disprove something that is obviously wrong, but it's very hard to disprove something that is probably right (like gravity and evolution). I'll agree with the argument that science can and has been misinterpreted and misused, but that doesn't change the nature of the discovery process. As an example: Fact: The earth is getting hotter. Theories as to why: (Prevailing theory): Lots of evidence suggests that the earth is getting hotter because of increased levels of CO2 in the atmosphere. (Somewhat common) Valid, but less thoroughly researched evidence suggests that the warming may be caused by other effects than CO2, such as solar cycles and geothermal activity. So, yeah, it's absolutely possible for people who know the facts to continue doing research to try to determine whether the prevailing theory (which we can control) or the less-common theory (which we can't control) hold true. But it isn't "science" to just dismiss the basic fact of the earth getting hotter. That's like dismissing gravity because you don't like it when you fall on your ass. Tenpoundbass says

Religious nuts have always challenged Science, and Science has seemed to get along just fine. Why get in a pissing contest over climate change, evolution ect…

Because the creationists (like Sarah Palin) want to teach Creationism in school, and fill my children's head with nonsense about magical sky dwellers who created man out of some dust. If Sarah wants her kids to believe such stories, she's welcome to attend any church that she likes.

chrisborden says

How about teaching people to exercise, to stop eating corporate poison, to cook for themselves,

Absolutely. Guess what, though? Uneducated people lack the knowledge to make those decisions. If you want them to be able to make those intelligent decisions, you're going to have to provide them with a good education. The poverty / poor education cycle is vicious. The 'corporate poison' is another fun issue. How do you teach them not to eat it? If anyone tries to publish the evidence of how horrible this food is for you, they get sued by McDonald's and co. Hell, look at the food pyramid. It was written by the farm lobby, which is why it makes the completely outrageous claim that grains (you know, wheat, soy, and corn) should form the basis of our diet, and that meat is of equal importance as fruits and vegetables. That is so beyond unhealthy that it's almost criminal. How do you expect ordinary people to make good decisions about their health when they're being told that giving their kids white bread peanut butter and jelly sandwiches is healthy? Many other countries have addressed these problems by heavily regulating their food industries. I might get on board with that approach, but I doubt that the people who think that the current system works would be. Of course, that's not going to change the basic nature of health care. There is no free market when I get hit by a truck. "Personal responsibility" isn't involved when a building collapses on me.

stop taking drugs and drinking and smoking,

The government-funded anti-smoking campaign (surgeon general's warnings, high taxes on tobacco, and TRUTH ads more recently) have accomplished exactly that. Smoking rates in the US have fallen to less than 20% of their peak, all because the government stepped in and made people aware of just how bad smoking was for them. So that worked. Maybe soda should come with warning labels too (in some countries, it does).

stop vegetating in front of the idiot box, stop wanting to pop a pill for every perceived ailment,

How about banning the advertising of medication? "Ask your doctor about..." is just wrong. Your doctor should be the one telling you about a medication, not your television.

stop obsessing about being sick (you get what you THINK)? When we don’t need doctors, then they’ll just have to find something else to do. (Oh, pardon me for being so naive.)

We will always need doctors. What you're suggesting would certainly cut down on heart disease and some forms of cancer, but the big burdens would still be there. Is "personal responsibility" going to make bones stop breaking, the elderly stop aging, or anything else? And just SAYING "personal responsibility" is meaningless when you have a society that has been built up to cram bad ideas down everybody's throats. The free market has utterly failed at steering people towards healthy lifestyle habits, so the only option there is going to be even more government intervention. I am 100% in favor of changing behavior here. We need our school lunches to no longer include nachos and dr pepper. We need to make McDonald's cease to be the most popular resturaunt. We aren't going to do that when the food companies who make these terrible products have all the money and can skew perception all that they want.

Teddybearneil says

anks NOT foreclosing on properties and the existing inventory of foreclosed properties pretty much cleared out, I don’t see how and when prices will come down further.

Foreclosures in Silicon Valley continue to climb:

There were 591 foreclosures in Santa Clara County in June, up 22 percent compared with May, ForeclosureRadar, a Discovery Bay company that tracks California foreclosure activity, reported Tuesday. Foreclosures were up 63 percent in May from April. In a sign that the trend would continue, notices of default — the first step leading to foreclosure — rose by 11.5 percent. Foreclosure sales statewide jumped by 24.7 percent, the company said, marking the third consecutive month of increase following a moratorium pending announcement

Can anyone explain me how I can infer inventory of foreclosed properties will clear out soon?

I just heard this asshole radio anchor Bob brinker and a caller criticize public health plan. They were lamenting that if public health insurance how would "poor" private health insurance companies compete with the public plan. It is unbelievable how evil some people can get in this country. These same motherfuckers like bob brinkers of the world will have no issue when a private health insurance denies coverage to some cancer patient. After all to these insects in human form of the world think that health is also a matter of profit. Why these assholes don't demand that essential services like fire brigade and police also is privatized....

How would those poor private health insurance companies compete with the public plan? That would be horrible. As it is, the execs of those poor private companies are barely eeking by: The salaries of the highest paid health insurance CEOs: * Ron Williams – Aetna – Total Compensation: $24,300,112. * H. Edward Hanway – CIGNA – Total Compensation: $12,236,740. * Angela Braly – WellPoint – Total Compensation: $9,844,212. * Dale Wolf – Coventry Health Care – Total Compensation: $9,047,469. * Michael Neidorff – Centene – Total Compensation: $8,774,483. * James Carlson – AMERIGROUP – Total Compensation: $5,292,546. * Michael McCallister – Humana – Total Compensation: $4,764,309. * Jay Gellert – Health Net – Total Compensation: $4,425,355. * Richard Barasch – Universal American – Total Compensation: $3,503,702. * Stephen Hemsley – UnitedHealth Group – Total Compensation: $3,241,042. * Karen Ignagni, CEO America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP) Total compensation: $1,580,000 Meanwhile, their customers' procedures are denied...

Another point we should look at when talking about health insurance... Has any one looked at how much money frivolous law suites are costing us? I think people have forgotten that when you are getting treated in the emergency room the doctor is doing what he can with the little time he has to save your life. There are laws that protect good samaritans and I think we need to have the same to protect doctors as well. People seem to think that if a doctor is unable to fix something or that there is a remote possibility that another doctor could have done better they should sue. A lot of money is spent on these cases which is why malpractice insurance is through the rough. Suing a doctor these days and making a mint seems to be the new way of obtaining the american dream. The ease in which one can sue a doctor ends up increasing the cost for everyone else to get treatment. I due not feel we should take away ones right to sue but must need to raise the bar on what constitutes wrong doing by someone who is trying to help you. I strongly believe that in order for someone to be able to sue against a doctor they must have a case that is strong enough to show gross negligence. For example in order to sue a doctor, that doctor must do something like used the wrong patient chart, or left a tool in you. I also think a neutral third party should be used to determine if a case is even worthy of going to trial before lawyers have to be brought in.

P2D2 says

Teddybearneil says

anks NOT foreclosing on properties and the existing inventory of foreclosed properties pretty much cleared out, I don’t see how and when prices will come down further.

Foreclosures in Silicon Valley continue to climb:

There were 591 foreclosures in Santa Clara County in June, up 22 percent compared with May, ForeclosureRadar, a Discovery Bay company that tracks California foreclosure activity, reported Tuesday. Foreclosures were up 63 percent in May from April. In a sign that the trend would continue, notices of default — the first step leading to foreclosure — rose by 11.5 percent. Foreclosure sales statewide jumped by 24.7 percent, the company said, marking the third consecutive month of increase following a moratorium pending announcement

Can anyone explain me how I can infer inventory of foreclosed properties will clear out soon?

Just because foreclosures are increasing does not mean inventory overall is going up. And if those foreclosures are selling faster than they come on the market, inventory will go down. In places that I've been watching, I know inventories are much lower right now than they were last year. I think in Fremont, CA there are actually about half the number of homes listed (around 500, down from over 1000). This is what bugs me and is causing me to have my doubts. Hopefully, it's just because of several things (CA moratorium, temp blip with spring/summer selling season, extremely low interest rates). I guess we'll see.

"liberal data" my ass What a jerk off you are, drfelle. Now you are plying semantic games with the data. Not that anyone should be surprised.

There is no ignore button. It would mean N x N possible relationships of ignoring, probably slowing down the site. On the other hand, maybe it would improve the user experience. Commenters who got ignored by pretty much everyone could just be put into some mode where they comment into the ether. On the third hand, it's character building to deal with difficult people. Not fun, but there's some real skill in doing it well. BTW, I'm a liberal, big time! But fiscally conservative.

chrisborden says

I do not go to the doctor because I keep myself healthy, and it is not in my best interest to waste $3000+ a year on “insurance” I will never use.

...which is all well and good when you are healthy. Now, what happens if you're born a diabetic? What if you get cancer? Nobody dies from "old age". We all die from some disease or physical trauma. Most of us will die from some form of cancer. Funnily enough, regular check ups are the best way to fight cancer (early detection almost always results in effective treatment, and late detection almost always results in death). I can not for the life of me figure out what kind of brain damage (probably not covered by insurance) is required to think that the current system is somehow as good as it can be, or that it's even rational to pay such ridiculously high prices for medical care. I don't really care if you're pro-single payer, pro-government option, pro-government ownership, or anything. There are plenty of other options with a lot less government involvement, and ALL OF THEM are better than what we do in the U.S.

Tenpoundbass says

Don’t confuse “Theory” and “Law”

Well, no, because scientists don't really use the term "Law" anymore. Newton called his reasonably-close approximations "Law", and then people with more knowledge came along and showed that Newton didn't get everything right. We still call some things "Laws" for historical reasons, but scientists learned long, long ago never to claim that anything is "absolute", even if it has been hundreds of years since any contrary evidence has been presented. So, yes, gravity is "just a theory" (albeit one without much contrary evidence). That's how science works. You learn something new, and that new evidence becomes the basis for your understanding of the universe. Tenpoundbass says

The same thing could be said about “String Theory”, “The Big Bang”, “theoretical physics” and “quantum mechanics”. It’s all Scientific “Bull Shit” no different than religious Bull shit. But in the spirit of education you tolerate or humor these views. As they often may expand your mind to see innovation in something you might have not seen otherwise.

Except every single one of those things is supported by scientific evidence, with thousands upon thousands of scientists researching them actively in order to attempt to refine the theories until we have exhausted the limits of human observation. Creationism is supported by some books written by crazy people (that the books refer to as "prophets"). I'm going to assume that you don't know the first thing about any of those topics if you call them "Bullshit" or claim that they're "no different" from religion. Putting quantum mechanics into the same realm as String theory in terms of scientific evidence is absurd (not that there's anything terribly wrong with string theory, it's just that quantum mechanics is a far more thoroughly researced arena), and I don't even know what that "theoretical physics" thing is supposed to be. All physics are "theoretical". Sounds like pseudo-science to me. You have no idea what you're talking about. Tenpoundbass says

Surely you don’t have a problem with Greek or Mayan mythology? One mans mythology is another mans religion.

In a theology, mythology or maybe even a history class, I have no problem with that at all. We should absolutely be teaching our children about the world's religions and what people who follow those religions believe -- but it is NOT science. The difference between science and religion is this: - In science, you perform research in order to explain the world. As you learn more from your research, your understanding of the world around you grows. - In religion, you accept some collection of stories and /or people as infallible truth. You do not investigate or learn about the world around you, because all truths are laid out by the religion. There are certainly scientists who are also religious, but there aren't very many credible scientists who are Creationists.

drfelle, not all people have opinions that are derived from some media outlet or other. It is true that too many have, and given the enormous pseudo-conservative slant of the media since _forever_, the results are appalling and the misconceptions are astoundingly severe.

TOB, >> ..., or pro peace and have zero problems with producing litters of illegitimate children, well known to be the primary cause of crime and social unrest. Uh, you should have watched the program "Lost Royals" on PBS last night. I think the real title of the British program was "Royal Bastards" (a term which was used, uh, liberally, during the program), but of course that title was a little too pointed for the local sensibilities. Anyway, the point I'm making is that War and Crime has more likely been the result of the bastard children of Kings and Nobility, if at all (and that would include the elite on Wall St here in the US, by extension).

SomeGuy, You did in some sense clarify what you mean by "socialist" (somewhere above) by writing the sentence: >>That ASPECT of the government would be a socialist one. I agree with what Kevin is saying about how the term socialism and socialist is being abused. It is counterproductive to claim that an aspect /program/action/policy/law/whatever of a state/country is "socialist", especially when there are plenty of non-socialist countries that have similar or identical programs. For example, Nazi Germany invaded Poland in 1939 under false pretenses. And the US invaded Iraq in 2001 under equally false pretenses. Does that USA make a Nazi nation? Well, as you know, not exactly. I have to disagree with labeling of government programs as "socialist". I think it is just a smear tactic, and should be avoided.

Bap33, >>but the Army is not for profit … LOL, tell that to Haliburton.

drfelle says

elliemae says

How would those poor private health insurance companies compete with the public plan? That would be horrible. As it is, the execs of those poor private companies are barely eeking by:

Once the dust settles and there is still no OBAMA Health Care Plan…. Homeless Man: How is ellimae going to be able to afford Health Coverage with her $35-$75K salary? drfelle: It looks like she might have to downgrade to Basic Cable. Homeless Man: Oh no, that’s horrible! drfelle: yeah, and she might have to rid herself of a huge car payment. Homeless Man: Does that mean she’ll have to walk like me? drfelle: No, elliemae has more than one vehicle. Homeless Man: Why does she need more than one vehicle? drfelle: It’s a long story. She, and many others that can’t afford Health Coverage have a spending problem. Homeless Man: Why doesn’t she learn to save? drfelle: She feels entitled to steal from the most successful (wealthy) citizens. She doesn’t need to save. Homeless Man: But haven’t the successful citizens earned their money through hard work? drfelle: Yes, but people like elliemae are Prideful, and can’t stand the success of others. Homeless Man: Isn’t being Prideful a sin. drfelle: yes. Homeless Man: Wait, if elliemae is entitled to the money of people who are wealthier than her, then I must be entitled to her money!!!! drfelle: sigh! Wealth IS relative!

I really want some of what you're smoking.

But haven’t the successful citizens earned their money through hard work?

Of course. The hardest workers are always the ones who enjoy the most wealth. Wealth is rarely if ever accumulated through exploitation, fraud, larceny, nepotism or luck.

Do other countries have nationalized health care that covers everyone? Yes. Do they pay for it? Yes. Are the populations of these countries wandering the streets dying of disease. No. Are we in the USA so stupidly incompetent that we can't do that too without bankrupting our populace or creating a rationing worse than that created by private insurers? That, apparently, is what's being argued by the conservative members of this forum.

ian807 says

Are the populations of these countries wandering the streets dying of disease. No.

Umm, wow....Where did that fact come from. I would argue that in every country there are going to be people are wondering the streets dying of diseases because almost every one will get one at one point or another. I would feal that by being in the US will currently get me faster and better treatment then what I would get in one of the countries with nationalized healthcare plan in place. The US system needs to be fixed, but I do not think handing it over to the government is the solution. d3 - aka knightparzival

chrisborden says

My mother, 85, is in a nursing home since a stroke and broken hip earlier this year, and no way does she have quality of life. She won’t eat, has to be fed from a tube, won’t walk, etc. If it were legal to let her die, I would, and that is compassion, NOT cruelty. As it is, she is a burden to herself AND society, and no, I do not believe God is going to somehow miraculously restore her. I don’t even want to contemplate how much her care costs the feds and CA (in addition to her share, $761 a month). This stuff isn’t even part of the debate. Thank god I have it in writing that I’m not going to end up that way, no matter what. I’ll find a way to kill myself.

If she truly has no quality and if SHE no longer wants to live like that - or if she isn't able to make the decsions and her Power of Attorney believes that is the way that she would want it to be (or if there is no POA, the majority of adult children who can be reasonably found agree), stop feeding her through the tube (but keep it in so that she can receive hydration and medications if necessary), and allow her to die. Or call a hospice, end the feedings and allow her to die. If her doctor won't support this, find another doctor. It is legal, people do have choices. It's called Palliative Care. Read the articles on the nursing home page: http://patrick.net/?p=16361 http://patrick.net/?p=16353 http://patrick.net/?p=16352 (elliemae hops off her soapbox again)