patrick.net

FunTime says

For this to be the most widely cited income data, according to the Wikipedia page, is telling when considering awareness for the big gaps in income near the top percentages. I think this definition would leave out a lot of the income in the top few percentages which would make the averages low.

When one is gauging whether $82,500k makes the cut for top 10%, it makes no difference whether the top 0.01% makes $1mil or $1bil per year. It's the income in the bottom 90% that moves the line.

mmmarvel says

Etc, etc, etc, and no, none of those 'leg ups' apply. What DID apply was my raising was in a comfortable middle class house. I had two loving parents, who didn't divorce. I started working (in the berry fields) when I was 8 (during the summer). I carried two paper routes. I washed dishes and bused tables when I was 16, driving the car that I bought with money I earned from my paper routes and mowing lawns. Moved to working as a stocker and checker when I was 18, and on and on and on.

The interesting thing about this is that we are screwing over today's youth 2-fold:

1) Deficit-spending and accumulating mountains of debt they will have to pay off

2) Spoiling them instead of preparing them for the reality that awaits them.

This asshole has done far worse to far more, yet he's still living free and in luxury. Call me when a big fish gets fried.

Reality says

Are you complaining because you are not in the 1%? Apparently social mobility worked in your case: someone else took the spot among the 1% that you could have expected to keep if the society were entirely run by nepotists (bureaucrats usually are).

In any case, it's not necessarily membership among the top 1%, but membership among the top 10%, top 25% or top 50% that a person's effort can make a big difference. To get into the 1%, obviously one has to out-compete 99 other people; that may be a multi-generational effort. Getting into the top 10% is not that hard: only takes about $82K a year or so income as an individual right now; get yourself there and stay there for a while, then you might be able to provide the base for your kid to get into the 1%.

We already are in the top 25%. My mother had her reasons for leaving her 1% family and it's not pretty and most of you would have done the same. I can't say that people within that class are turning out great people for the most part. A sense of entitlement and that you deserve more than the next person is a sick way of thinking, and has more than one sick way to manifest itself. Maybe stop making assumptions?

Reality says

it makes no difference whether the top 0.01% makes $1mil or $1bil per year.

Unless the mean is considered, which I think is actually the number that makes sense here. Each person counts equally, so their income has an equal proportion contribution to the mean. One person with a multimillion dollar income moves the mean.
For median calculations, I agree.

FunTime says

Reality says

it makes no difference whether the top 0.01% makes $1mil or $1bil per year.

Unless the mean is considered, which I think is actually the number that makes sense here. Each person counts equally, so their income has an equal proportion contribution to the mean. One person with a multimillion dollar income moves the mean.

For median calculations, I agree.

The percentiles have nothing to do with the mean. The mean is always much higher than the median simply because the extra weight given to the top end.

hrhjuliet says

We already are in the top 25%. My mother had her reasons for leaving her 1% family and it's not pretty and most of you would have done the same. I can't say that people within that class are turning out great people for the most part. A sense of entitlement and that you deserve more than the next person is a sick way of thinking, and has more than one sick way to manifest itself. Maybe stop making assumptions?

I have been in and out of the top 1% in terms of income several times. I was even in the bottom 25% for some period in my early adult life. I don't think I changed much. People are individuals, not members of classes. Do you feel particular affinity for fellow members in the top 25%? probably not.

You really need to give your obsession a vacation.

Has he Changed the shit out of us, or insured the Fuck out of us?

You Decide!

No. He's waiting for $1000.

If gold hits 1000, your house and his crapshacks in concord will be worth 25% of what they are now. However, we all know Ol Yellen will print the fuck out of the world's ink and paper supply before that happens.

Ether way, maybe we ZH readers aren't so crazy after all.

Scared?

I agree with you, people are individuals, I was merely pointing out that people leave wealth by choice in some situations because it can create a climate of apathy - think The Great Gatsby. I also believe that raising children in a self-entitled environment often breeds self-entitlement. I also believe raising kids in a day care often makes them have attachment issues. NOT always, just often. People can rise above all kinds of horrors. I actually agree with you. My whole point was that people are good, bad and hardworking in all of the income brackets. I was trying to point out that it's harder to avoid desperation if the person is poor, and its harder to avoid greed when the person is rich. Anyone can choose to rise above any negative emotions in any walk of life, but some environments make certain deadly sins harder than others to overcome. People are individuals, and their choices to do the right thing are to be commended in all situations. At the same time, where a person ends up economically is often based on luck or heredity. Not always, just often.

Reality says

hrhjuliet says

We already are in the top 25%. My mother had her reasons for leaving her 1% family and it's not pretty and most of you would have done the same. I can't say that people within that class are turning out great people for the most part. A sense of entitlement and that you deserve more than the next person is a sick way of thinking, and has more than one sick way to manifest itself. Maybe stop making assumptions?

I have been in and out of the top 1% in terms of income several times. I was even in the bottom 25% for some period in my early adult life. I don't think I changed much. People are individuals, not members of classes. Do you feel particular affinity for fellow members in the top 25%? probably not.

I have an observation to offer. As you all may be aware, I militate about the massive deception by omission here:
"The Public Be Suckered", at
http://patrick.net/?p=1230886
Most blameworthy for this omission are conpersons-in-control, who figure to have far more than their share of the top 1%!!! I think this bell will ring LOUD, please consider ringing!
For what it's worth, I went to school until my mid-20's; I recall NEVER hearing the likes of "how to FOOL the people".

mell says

The interesting thing about this is that we are screwing over today's youth 2-fold:

1) Deficit-spending and accumulating mountains of debt they will have to pay off

2) Spoiling them instead of preparing them for the reality that awaits them.

The deficit-spending will just end up (government deficit-spending) with higher taxes and fees, and the government figuring out more ways to get it's hands on your money. Personal deficit-spending ... that IS a personal problem. A basic understanding of finances (don't spend more than you make) and discipline can go a long ways there.

The spoiling issue - man, the coddling of youth drives me nuts. Rather than a right answer and a wrong answer, the question has become, 'How do you feel about your answer' - what??? I worked at an early age, now instead of working part (or all) of your summer, the kids are sent off to camp, part of the learning about a work ethic is lost right there. Instead of trying different jobs as you grow up, the kids are steered into doing one thing or nothing, then magically they are suppose to KNOW what they want to do. How many, many kids go through college, piling up debt, come out, go to work and quickly decide - 'Uh, I know I don't want to do this the rest of my life.'

We've taken winning and losing away from kids, but that is exactly what life is. There are winners and there are losers. One of life's lessons is that just because you didn't win today, so what, tomorrow is another day to try again. Just because you're not a winner in this area, doesn't mean you'll be a loser in another area. I really feel for the upcoming generations.

mmmarvel says

The spoiling issue - man, the coddling of youth drives me nuts. Rather than a right answer and a wrong answer, the question has become, 'How do you feel about your answer' - what??? I worked at an early age, now instead of working part (or all) of your summer, the kids are sent off to camp, part of the learning about a work ethic is lost right there. Instead of trying different jobs as you grow up, the kids are steered into doing one thing or nothing, then magically they are suppose to KNOW what they want to do.

. You are over generalizing. I worked in the summer and during the school year while in High School, and I was not an isolated case. Whether or not you are a boomer who wants to validate why a whole new generation deserves to be priced out, or whether you are a young adult feeling sorry for yourself and blaming the boomers, the fact remains, the prices are too high. The boomers home cost twice their income, just like their parents home, and a successful society would have the same available for this generation and the next. What kind of society does not want the same quality of life for their children they had? It should improve, not digress, and its not this generations fault, so stop blaming them.

Facebooksux says

No. He's waiting for $1000.

If gold hits 1000, your house and his crapshacks in concord will be worth 25% of what they are now. However, we all know Ol Yellen will print the fuck out of the world's ink and paper supply before that happens.

Ether way, maybe we ZH readers aren't so crazy after all.

Scared?

Yeah, now that the market is exhausted I suspect the dollar will continue to weaken as they can't stop printing in order to keep the market at these levels and gold will rise.

mell says

I suspect the dollar will continue to weaken as they can't stop printing in order to keep the market at these levels and gold will rise.

Dollar is hitting records against some EM currencies. If liquidity is removed by taper, dollar might continue getting stronger.

After United Airlines Flight 93 was hijacked, Beamer and other passengers communicated with people on the ground via airphones and cell phones, and learned that the World Trade Center and the Pentagon had been attacked using hijacked airplanes.

Beamer tried to place a credit card call through a phone located on the back of a plane seat but was routed to a customer-service representative instead, who passed him on to GTE supervisor Lisa Jefferson.

Now if you're suggesting that Airlines didn't have Elitist phones on every flight in 2001, then you never flew. Every Jet Blue flight had, a 5 to 7 inch flat screen, and a Phone with a credit card swipe.

tr6 says

mell says

I suspect the dollar will continue to weaken as they can't stop printing in order to keep the market at these levels and gold will rise.

Dollar is hitting records against some EM currencies. If liquidity is removed by taper, dollar might continue getting stronger.

On full taper towards zero I can see that happening, also likely any short maket bloodbaths will strengthen the dollar. But I cannot see it gaining significant strength against the EUR, I think while rangebound for now the EURUSD will eventually go to 1.40+.

First time home buyers do not usually pay cash for houses. Boomers buying a median house in 1980 would have paid 15% interest that cost nearly 3x then median income. That's a much higher percentage of median income than the current 4% interest on a house that is nearly 4x median income. 15% mortgage on a $150k (3x median income) house would be like $2000/mo, whereas today 4% 30yr mortgage on a $200k house (today's median price) is $1000/mo.

Interesting. Anyone watched this before? http://www.youtube.com/embed/7e1kyK5wmEc

Terrabella says

He deserved the sentence and will most likely die in prison. However, some of the comments here are juvenile and downright stupid. To paint an entire industry as a bunch of crooks is ridiculous. And,

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch leads the pack as an uneducated, redneck spouting bad taste. 7800 + comments kind of tells you something...doesn't it !!

I think he should dump those special needs kids on the Judge's doorstep. See if HE takes them in.

It now looks like Boner is giving up and will put to vote a clean debt ceiling bill:

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2014/02/11/debt-ceiling-republicans-boehner/5390293/

I hope this is a sign of the fever breaking and the Republicans returning to some semblance of sanity. A man can dream.

Boner is folding like a cheap suit.
Clearly he doesn't have what it takes to shoot the hostage.

Dan8267 says

And here's how to fix it.

Removing $800 billions of spending is like removing 5% of the GDP, plus second order effects, probably enough to start a downward spiral.

I'd say that would kill the hostage.

The guys climb in to dumpsters to take a nap???

Your prices are too high. A home in San Ramon in 1980 did not cost $150,000. It was more like $25,000. a href="http://patrick.net/?p=1237859&c=1051669#comment-1051669">Reality says

First time home buyers do not usually pay cash for houses. Boomers buying a median house in 1980 would have paid 15% interest that cost nearly 3x then median income. That's a much higher percentage of median income than the current 4% interest on a house that is nearly 4x median income. 15% mortgage on a $150k (3x median income) house would be like $2000/mo, whereas today 4% 30yr mortgage on a $200k house (today's median price) is $1000/mo.

Man I was there! There was a phone call placed by Beamer, and it was what it was. No body back then balked and asked... "Well wait a minute, hows comes he's using a phone on a flyin machine, whens theys aint evens goings to invent thems untils 2006?"
Just how stupid do you think Cavemen were back 2001, before the smart phone was invented?

lostand confused says

The guys climb in to dumpsters to take a nap???

An Obama voter no doubt.
Hey if you're happy and you know it clap your hands!

Sirs:

In your arguments please distinguish between current deficit and long term debt.

bgamall4 says

Call it Crazy says

No one denies that Obama inherited a load of crap from Bush,

People deny it all the time.

You know we elected a Leader not a fucking cry baby.

How well do you think you would fare, if you spent 90% of your time at your job, bitching about all of your problems being the last guys fault. OK, that might cut it for the first few months, but eventually Your boss would expect you to exhibit some of those problem solving skills you went to great lengths to illustrate during the interview process.

Did he not run on the "Change" platform?

I'm still waiting for him to quit whining and start Changing things.

You guys are either crappy history students or chronic liars.
History has shown, these things can turn on a dime under the right management.

Just look at the years of Republican abuse on the poor and middle class Clinton erased in just a few short years. This Mother fuckers is not only "NOT" trying to make things better, he's intentionally giving us what we get. Stop pretending it's Bush up there signing away on all of this disasterous legislation that even makes you guys weep tears of betrayal.

But your will to stick back to the right, is much stronger, than you feelings of being thrown under the bus by a guy you invested so much energy in promoting as the President that would be the next "Theodore Marin F. Lincoln". So instead you misplace his misdeeds onto Bush.

Nice touch, I wish I could blame other people for my foolishness.

CaptainShuddup says

Nice touch, I wish I could blame other people for my foolishness.

Isn't that what you do? Blame Obama?

tatupu70 says

Isn't that what you do? Blame Obama?

I would Blame YOU! If you were President.

You Civics class reject!

tatupu70 says

Isn't that what you do? Blame Obama?

Yes, every chance he gets. He knows in his heart of hearts everything must be Obama's fault. It's all he can think of. He eats, sleeps, and dreams of how Obama is ruining this country.

As much of a problem as I have with Obama, this clown has succeeded in convincing me that Obama is actually a pretty good president, because Fox and Captain spend so much energy looking for evidence of how terrible he is, and all they can come up with is indirect and or transparent BS.

I'm not kidding, I would have a far less favorable impression of Obama if the Captain hadn't failed so miserably in convincing me otherwise.

spydah_hh says

bob2356 says

There has been debt since 1790.

Incorrect. In 1835 Andrew Jackson was the first and only U.S. President to pay off the national debt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson#Federal_debt

Ok there has been debt since 1790 except the year 1885. Better. Does it change the context all that much?

humanity says

Yes, every chance he gets. He knows in his heart of hearts everything must be Obama's fault. It's all he can think of. He eats, sleeps, and dreams of how Obama is ruining this country.

Yes and perhaps some who act as such would have more clout if it weren't for the fact that the very second Obama was elected they basically acted and behaved exactly the same as they do now- which it wouldn't have mattered whether Obama or another Democrat was elected. So long as a Republican is in the office- no matter how bad of a president they are- they are pleased as punch. The second a Democrat gets elected, all common sense gets thrown to the wind and they are blinded by ideology. We should be pleased that luckily this type of attitude only exists in a very small percentage of the population and they make no real difference in regards to who wins elections.

Yea the same thing happened with Soylent Green, tometo tomato, it all eats good.

hrhjuliet says

the fact remains, the prices are too high.

That is true, but the solution? In some cities they can (and do) do infill. The results haven't impressed me (they did some of this up in Portland) but it is a 'solution'. However in the SFBA, where (in many cases) homes have already been built literally touching each other (if not sharing a common wall), I don't think that is a solution. You have a large segment of people who want to live there (for whatever number of reasons) and a finite number of dwellings. Your solution? In the free market a limited supply (dwellings) and a large demand will cause the price to climb. You said (in an earlier post) that we should build more houses. However, there is a limited amount of land. Someone who works and WANTS to live in SF may not be happy if the nearest house is in Sacramento. The solution? I sure don't have the answer, not ONLY do I NOT want the GOVERNMENT to set prices; but even if they did there would not be enough supply. Oh, I know, we can build lots and lots of skyscraper apartments in SF. Yeah, that will go over big.

What I don't like is that it is what it is, and people whine about how it is. They don't do anything (for the most part) to change it, they just say 'I don't have mine and I want it'. Isn't that the case for lots of stuff? I'd love to drive a Lexus, but finances and reality is that it fiscally sound for me to be driving my 14 year old, 200,000 miles on it Camry.

Reality says

The percentiles have nothing to do with the mean.

Right and I'm arguing that if the percentiles were established according to the mean it would better inform the conversation of "Can a person work their way into x percent?" I saw some great articles on "upward mobility in the U.S." a few months back but haven't taken time to dig them up. Summary:Upward mobility is more rare in the United States than a lot of other countries despite the stellar reputation.

If Taco Bell can't serve Man, their costs will rise and they will pass it on to the consumer.

I am not paying higher prices for food just because of some government bureaucrats.

mmmarvel says

However, there is a limited amount of land.

That's not the problem.