patrick.net

shrekgrinch says

Tenouncetrout says

Well a Birther (From the best I can tell) is anyone that willingly has open discourse about Obama’s Birth Certificate. Then technically everyone in this thread is a “Birther”.

A ‘birther’ is someone who believed that Obama was not born in the US or outside the US under conditions what would qualify him as a ‘natural born citizen’ as Congress had established in 1961.
But your point is well taken.

Well both aren't mutually exclusive.
Just because one asks to see some credentials, does not mean they "really" believe you are, or aren't a member of what ever it is those documents will dictate. But the fact still is, everyone in America is subject to credit checks, and identity checks. No one is immune from legally identifying them selves. If anyone has a problem with those asking for proof from anyone. Then that person really has a distorted view how things work, and are the ones with the problem, in this Democracy, in this America, we're all in our right to ask anyone for their ID. And yes that goes for Obama too.

Those that have a problem with that are the "Birthers"

errc says

Since when are landlords considered needy individuals?

Probably ever since homeowners were considered better citizens than renters, thus getting their mortgage interest deductions and tax credits.

errc says

Anyone else find it hilarious that it took 13 different government agencies to solve the case?

I don't find the criminal realtors and their lobbying power funny at all. They assrape the general public with impunity.

FunTime says

Some are suggesting that will happen from now on, but that system would have have met the demand brought by CDOs.

"...would NOT have met..." for those following.

FunTime says

I would certainly enjoy making tens of millions a year instead of just many thousands.

Actually, I'm not certain, but it sounded good to write.

shrekgrinch says

That’s right, folks…see how MarkInSF tried to pull a fast one on you all just now?

Nope--he just posted your quotes. If quoting you is a fast one, what does that say about your posts?

Funny thing about Obama. He's an incredibly smart man, and yet, he spent over $2 Million in legal fees in order to prevent the release of the certificate that he had all along. Any theories as to why?

The Donald said he spent over $2 Million in legal fees. Are you seriously willing to take on the Donald on this issue?

RayAmerica says

The Donald said he spent over $2 Million in legal fees. Are you seriously willing to take on the Donald on this issue?

Yeah, like he has any credibility. When asked about his investigation he said:

"We're looking into it very, very strongly. At a certain point in time I'll be revealing some interesting things," Trump said on CNN's American Morning.

Trump first claimed earlier this month he had sent investigators to Obama's home state in an effort to find out if the president was indeed born there, as he says he was and several media organization's independent investigations have confirmed.

"I have people that have been studying it and they cannot believe what they're finding," Trump told NBC then.
But Trump has since offered few details about the on-the-ground investigation and, in the interview with CNN Thursday, wouldn't specifically say if it had uncovered new details.

"You'll be very surprised," he said when asked by CNN's Ali Velshi if his investigators have found anything.

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2011/04/21/trump-says-hell-reveal-interesting-things-on-obama/

Uh, huh. He found something we'll be surprised about, that his people cannot believe they're finding? Do you think so Ray?

I think he's full of shit. I also think anybody that thinks Trump has any credibility on this is an idiot.

When asked about the surprising findings yesterday, after Obama released his "long form", he completely dodged the question (toward the end):

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2011/04/27/trump_takes_credit_for_obama_releasing_a_birth_certificate.html

RayAmerica says

Funny thing about Obama. He’s an incredibly smart man, and yet, he spent over $2 Million in legal fees in order to prevent the release of the certificate that he had all along. Any theories as to why?

No they don't get and don't want to, having a smug coy smart ass president, is just fine with this lot, and they don't see a problem with that what so ever. A man so petty, and shallow, that his press conference was upstaged by his grand entrance, and mention that he was in fact interrupting our next president's tirade over on the fox network.

The Drama Queen should have just showed BC, printed the fucking thing and mailed it to every registered republican voter, and it would have saved the tax payer, money. This bull shit has consumed to date.
The truth is Obama so desperately needs these diversions, to draw attention from his nepotism and his administration's ineptitude.

And we're the Birthers, ring that bell.

This morning I made a comment that ChrisLa said proved something about me, or maybe it proved something about unions? I was thinkng... one comment of opinion on a forum can't prove anything, right?
But then again...

ChrisLA says

Unlike you buddy, I’m making it well in the private sector, and my mathematics are far beyond your basic high school math. I don’t need to lose all my dignity and become a union man like someone utterly incapable of making it on their own.

wow

shrekgrinch says

Yes it does. Too bad your reading comprehension skills suck too much for you to find where it says the States have the authority to vet presidential, vice-presidential, senatorial and representative candidates to qualify them as the Constitution declares them that they have to be.

Which article and section would that be? Post the section.

2.4 million fraud. The fine is 1 million.

She can keep 1.4 million !

ChrisLA says

But all you are offering is an emotional bias, bias that unions are great, and corporations are evil

If I have a problem with unions being done away with, it doesn't mean I said they are great. There are pros and cons.

Likewise, I never said corporations are evil. But I believe that they have far too much influence over our government, and that they should pay more in taxes.

ChrisLA says

and my mathematics are far beyond your basic high school math

I wish that were true. We wouldn't be having this conversation. Your Math skills are probably comparable to your English skills reflected in "my mathematics are." The math I teach is from low level up to AP Calculus. Could you tell me about the high level Math you do?

ChrisLA says

Unlike you buddy, I’m making it well in the private sector, and my mathematics are far beyond your basic high school math. I don’t need to lose all my dignity and become a union man like someone utterly incapable of making it on their own.

1) I spent over 20 years in the private sector. The upside financially is less now,and I work way harder than ever before (WAY HARDER). But it's satisfying in a different way. I go home exhausted, with homework to do, but with a satisfaction that my job is more than just chasing money. Who knows, maybe I'm even making a small difference in some peoples lives.

2) I have great benefits and job security.

Instead of being so envious and fixated on #2, if you had a clue you would be envious of #1.

ChrisLA says

Education issues are union related, our education system is structured in such a way that quality education does not need to be provided as a teacher does not actually have to perform well. As long as they get paid for attendance, can’t be fired for not performing, and have a seniority rule education will keep on sucking.

You're so well informed, and objective.

A quote from Dianne Ravitch (an expert who used to be in the Bush admin) on "Waiting for Superman:"

But contrary to the myth that Guggenheim propounds about “amazing results,” even Geoffrey Canada’s schools have many students who are not proficient. On the 2010 state tests, 60 percent of the fourth-grade students in one of his charter schools were not proficient in reading, nor were 50 percent in the other. It should be noted—and Guggenheim didn’t note it—that Canada kicked out his entire first class of middle school students when they didn’t get good enough test scores to satisfy his board of trustees. This sad event was documented by Paul Tough in his laudatory account of Canada’s Harlem Children’s Zone, Whatever It Takes (2009). Contrary to Guggenheim’s mythology, even the best-funded charters, with the finest services, can’t completely negate the effects of poverty.

Guggenheim ignored other clues that might have gotten in the way of a good story. While blasting the teachers’ unions, he points to Finland as a nation whose educational system the US should emulate, not bothering to explain that it has a completely unionized teaching force. His documentary showers praise on testing and accountability, yet he does not acknowledge that Finland seldom tests its students. Any Finnish educator will say that Finland improved its public education system not by privatizing its schools or constantly testing its students, but by investing in the preparation, support, and retention of excellent teachers. It achieved its present eminence not by systematically firing 5–10 percent of its teachers, but by patiently building for the future. Finland has a national curriculum, which is not restricted to the basic skills of reading and math, but includes the arts, sciences, history, foreign languages, and other subjects that are essential to a good, rounded education. Finland also strengthened its social welfare programs for children and families. Guggenheim simply ignores the realities of the Finnish system.

Guilty of fraud and I bet all she got was a 3 month suspension with the NAR and after that, she must meet some education requirements to stay in the clan.

klarek says

Probably ever since homeowners were considered better citizens than renters

In my experience homeowners make better neighbors than renters. I'm pretty sure I was a better citizen (in terms of taking care of the property, being involved in the neighborhood) when I was an owner compared to when I was a renter.

It's an off-topic point, but I responded to it because I know that many poo-poo the idea that a neighborhood of homeowners is better to live in than a neighborhood of renters...and I guess I just don't have that experience or belief. Do I think that homeowners (better citizens or not) should be given tax incentives...probably not. But I do think that, in general, they make for a better, more stable community. I may not be aware of my assumptions and biases, but it seems obvious to me.

I must say, I do feel sorry for you Chris.

ChrisLA says

Education issues are union related, our education system is structured in such a way that quality education does not need to be provided as a teacher does not actually have to perform well. As long as they get paid for attendance, can’t be fired for not performing, and have a seniority rule education will keep on sucking.

Let me get this straight. You figure most people that go in to teaching, do so because they are looking for a job where they can under-perform without getting fired?

In your world the only things that motivate people are money and the fear of being fired. What is it anyway, in the fact that unions can work, that scares you so? Is it like tiny seeds of socialism or communism that you feel need to be stamped out?

By the way this "can’t be fired for not performing," is a lie and nothing more than right wing propaganda.

(edited)

marcus says

In your world the only things that motivate people are money and the fear of being fired

Fear and greed are the biggest motivators in life, if not only. Granted some go into teaching profession because they really want to teach, I do understand that and not every decision we make are based on greed and fear. However, I am very skeptical that union elite is so altruistic and fair by the standards that this nation was founded upon.

Just consider seniority rule for a minute. How does it keep better teachers around? It's a dated standard created to keep the oligarchy sitting at the top from ever being let go, while removing anyone below. And I think that is wrong, because it is structured like some soviet socialistic pyramid crap throwing the hard working out while preserving the elite.

swebb says

Do I think that homeowners (better citizens or not) should be given tax incentives…probably not. But I do think that, in general, they make for a better, more stable community. I may not be aware of my assumptions and biases, but it seems obvious to me.

I'm sure a lot of people think the same thing about immigrants and ethnic minorities. Prejudices do not justify discrimination.

This renter-versus-owner class division is just another NAR propaganda item to make homeowners feel superior. It is not tangible or credible, but it is self-perpetuating.

"Why does person X get special tax reductions while person Y does not?"

"X is a better individual. This will incentivize Y to be like X."

"That sounds like social engineering. What does Y need to do to become like X?"

"Y needs to enslave himself to a 30-year debt obligation. Then he gets the same benefits as X, and is automatically a better person."

"How exactly does that make Y a better person?"

"He'll mow his lawn more often, have more money since the govt is bribing him, and will enjoy the self-perception of being in a higher class than person Z."

ChrisLA says

Fear and greed are the biggest motivators in life, if not only.

That is ridiculous. Why do I spend time trying to improve my golf game? I'm definitely never going to make any money playing (save the $5 skins)... And fear doesn't seem to be appropriate.

So, which is it?

ChrisLA says

Fear and greed are the biggest motivators in life, if not only.

Speak for yourself buddy. Most people's daily lives are not those of a manic-depressive sociopath.

ChrisLA says

Fear and greed are the biggest motivators in life

Sorry to hear those are your main motivators. That does not sound emotionally healthy. For a lot of folks, if not most, they are highly motivated by a doing things that give them a sense self-worth and importance, being a valued member of a group, and recognitions from others.

shrekgrinch says

tatupu70 says

Nope–he just posted your quotes. If quoting you is a fast one, what does that say about your posts

Out of context, yeah…I can see how you defend that, Tatoo. That’s all your side has left anymore.
bob2356 says

Which article and section would that be? Post the section.

I already did: “Epic Fail: Arizona Gov Vetoes Birther Bill”
Not only do many people on here have a severe reading comprehension problem…but they just don’t plain read, either.

There is no citation from the constitution in "epic fail". WTF are you babbling about? Repost it if it's there, you know how to cut and paste. How come every time the "many people here" ask you to backup some BS you spout with actual facts the only response you can ever come up with is that they have a severe reading comprehension problem?

shrekgrinch says

This has nothing to do with the…or ANY…constitution, Mr. Clueless.

Oh, nice.

According to you the Constitution "says the States have the authority to vet presidential, vice-presidential, senatorial and representative candidates to qualify them as the Constitution declares them that they have to be", bob2356 asks you where, and then you declare this has nothing to do with the Constitution!

I thought your Carter even-odd gas rationing post was funny, but I think I like this one even better.

marcus says

This morning I made a comment that ChrisLa said proved something about me, or maybe it proved something about unions? I was thinkng… one comment of opinion on a forum can’t prove anything, right?
But then again…
ChrisLA says

Unlike you buddy, I’m making it well in the private sector, and my mathematics are far beyond your basic high school math. I don’t need to lose all my dignity and become a union man like someone utterly incapable of making it on their own.

wow

Like whut Marcus said... wow.

I do realize that Marcus is able to defend himself (and did so quite eloquently in a subsequent email). However, I'd like to throw in a comment, or two...

Marcus has stated over & over that he is a teacher. He is passionate about his profession and defends his choice to leave the private sector and spend his days teaching math to high school students.

Ain't no lost dignity in that - in fact, he's to be admired. He's certainly not doing it for the money... and that he belongs to a union is secondary to his chosen profession. I doubt that anyone attending college with the goal of being a teacher says to himself, "When I graduate I'll get to join a union!" It's part of the package.

While I'm on the fence about unions, having had both good & bad experiences with them, I have no problem with Marcus joining a union and don't think any less of him.

I realize that you (Chris) and Marcus are having a discussion - but it's a free-for-all because it's not an exchange of private messages. So I'm popping in here and saying that your toe was just over the line on that one. Attack Marcus' grammar (sometimes it's lacking), attack his positions on issues - but please don't attack his choice of profession as somehow lacking because he's not in the private sector...

...ain't many teachers in the private sector, Chris. Unless you feel like quitting your job and taking his for a test drive, please don't disparage his choices. We need more qualified teachers, not less.

And I'm not sure what this has to do with Trump, Obama's birth certificate or the price of tea in China. This thread is wierd.

Personally I don't care where he was born. What I don't like about him is his blind desire to soak those who make money and redistribute wealth.

That whole "lets raise taxes" on the arbitrary 250,000 bracket did not sit well with me. Because it will be like the 70's, one day inflation will catch up and everyone will be paying high taxes while the tax brackets will not be adjusted for it. I'm already paying 40~% in taxes. No way I'm voting for paying 3% more to the government that will spend it on their closest friends and ask for more later. (In Washington DC desires for other peoples money by lobbyists are limitless)

Obamas entire appeal to the masses by saying "I'll take 3% more from those who make bit more money and [supposedly] give it to you." was disgusting.

shrekgrinch says

bob2356 says

There is no citation from the constitution in “epic fail”. WTF are you babbling about? Repost it if it’s there, you know how to cut and paste.

OMG…you STILL have no clue. I mean, really.
This has nothing to do with the…or ANY…constitution, Mr. Clueless.
bob2356 says

is that they have a severe reading comprehension problem?

Uh…because they DO…and YOU just proved it…a perfect example!

Since you can't even begin to remember what you were talking about you should really consider joining an Alzheimer's support group. It's ok to forget where you put the keys, it's when you don't remember what the keys are for that you have a problem.

Maybe you should consider the possibility that if "everyone" seems to have a reading comprehension problem with your writing, especially since "everyone" can understand the rest of the posters, you might actually be the problem.

robertoaribas says

which probably means alot of immigration, something the very same right wing idiotic zealots are dead set against] to get out of this mess.

By "immigration" are you referring to legal or illegal?

and the economy will have to grow. [which probably means alot of immigration

? I disagree with this. We have to put the people we already have here to work, not bring new workers in.

Wow, these guys never give up. Now Karl Denninger, who used to get some play on the pat.net front page has taken up the Afterbirther cause:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eOfYwYyS_c

yeah, KD is off the deep end on this one.

To be scientific he needs to get another copy of a known good birth certificate before spouting off like that.

Though some of the numbers do look suspicious in the official scan. We don't know the path this scan took, clearly it's some weird copy from a book or something. The original bc's were probably microfiched when the system went digital and the actual original paper copy probably no longer exists.

ChrisLA says

straw-man much?

Chris--I suggest reading the following:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

I don't think you understand what a straw man argument is...

I find that article containing some element of truth, however a one sided and conflates conservatism with birthism and other random traits making this article innacurate, although intentions may have been good it is difficult to see much past the bashing of Republicans and attributing them with traits that are present elsewhere.

To me the last 10 years have been more of an identity crisis for America. Political narrative out in attempt to form a certain national identity created an idiosyncratic approach to facts by both sides. A policy was turned into a symbol of nationalism, making intelligent debate practically impossible. Supported ideas became welcomed and accepted by a side and simply dismissed when in disagreement. This over years has created a misconstrued reality. Policy is often no longer based on the merit, but on its symbolism, the triumph of ideology and demagoguery.

When the ultra left constantly bashes private enterprise with ideology that unions and healthcare for the poor are a symbol of great society, when ultra right demagogues that we are at war with the muslims because of our core values and not our over expanded military, thats when we get ourselves into deep shit.

Meanwhile, today was Orly's day in court again, to refocus your party on what it cares about most.

Man, she looks really serious this time. Got all her ducks in a row, like nothing's going to stop her! She's even got a fresh fraudulent birth certificate, with all kinds of suspicious "layers" to bring to the bench.

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-birthers-20110503,0,3922827.story

Go Orly!

shrekgrinch says

As for statements signed by Hawaiian officials — all Democratic operatives since Hawaii is a one-party state — it made perfect sense for non-Democrats to not exactly take their word for it.

Wrong again. At least verify your facts before you spout them.

shrekgrinch says

Bush caused 9/11! Bush is responsible for EVERYTHING wrong with this country! Bush is hiding Bin Laden in some cell to bring out during an October Surprise! Cheney had Halliburton get a contract laying roads in Iraq that uses the bones of Iraqi children as filler in the concrete to save money!

Or how about my personal favorite of the WHACKIEST kind of shit that ever came out of the mouth of a Democrat, ladies and gentlemen I present to you….Peggy Joseph!

What the hell? i've never even heard of most of this.

Republicans the the other hand, what was it? Like 40% don't think Obama was born in the United States?

You can't comare 40% to a couple lunatic fringe individuals, and expect to be taken seriously.

The More Obama adheres the Bush doctrine, the more you guys Love him.
Who you calling Republican?

I bet the price is about in line with rent now. Any idea what that house would rent for?

shrekgrinch says

Hell, Hawaii is more of a one-party Dem state even more than New Jersey is

I lived in NJ when it had a republican gov and statehouse. Where you even aware that NJ currently has a Repub gov. How could that be in a one party dem state? Do you ever look at any kind of facts or simply live in your own alternate reality?

shrekgrinch says

And what did you think of Peggy Joseph? That’s totally real

Who cares? I don't. She's just a lone nut. And somehow you think my being unaware of her "proves that you live in some alternate world that is not related to reality"

Seriously?

Like I said, you can't compare that to 40% of Republicans believing Obama wasn't born in the United States to this.

Show me that 40% of Democrats believe Obama is going to pay for their gas, and then you've got something. But right now all you're doing is making a completely absurd argument.