patrick.net

FortWayne says

Press has been lying so Trump is right.

And so have the Republicans & their media.
Iraq has WMD.
Every time a Rep/Con says liar,they must be looking into a mirror?
What happened to Rep/Con morals?

Fake news (=propaganda) has been the domain of right wing media for 100s of years in the US, and especially rampantly so from 1980 onward, with cable television, Fox Broadcasting and right -wing talk shows on AM radio. Fake News was perpetrated upon any Democratic Party candidate, president, representative and voter, along with loud fake complaints about the "liberal media".

This was standard operating procedure for so many years, and it was very effective. It was so effective that true progressive Democrats were all but silenced, and dared not speak their values. And the corporate-and-security War Democrats all went over too the other side, and started advocating war and "security" and tax cuts, to compete with the right. This started with BIll Clinton(*). This even continued after the 2008 Obama victory.

Then, however, in 2015, something unprecedented happened: The left wing started fighting back, including pointing out all the fake news created by Breitbart, Fox and so on. This pushback through the mainstream media was only allowed to happen because the right-wing establishment (=the wealthy) were losing control of their party and was at risk of getting Donald Trump as their candidate. But, the Trump grassroots wing then threw the fake news accusation back at their own establishment-wing rulers and the left wing.

Then the bluecollar section of the right wing (and their exploiters, like Breitbart), the unchallenged champions of fake news for so many years, starting accusing the left wing of fake news. And the accusation stuck, because of the Russia hacking/election hysteria. And some of the accusation were even true! Amazing.

(*) Have you ever wondered why Republicans were so rabid about Bill Clinton? Well, it was because Bill Clinton outdid the right wing in pandering to the wealthy! The Republicans suddenly had no reason to exist, because the wealthy could get what they wanted straight from the Democratic Party. This in effect took jobs and monetary contributions away from the Republican Party, which made the RP extremely irate.

Did the government try to take over the press in 1984, or was it already a done deal?

If Trump does control the press, than you can make this point. Until then, you just sound like a lefty alarmist who's one beer away from mowing down a group of baseball-playing senators.

How in the fuck did this become about Amazon and collecting sales taxes? I know they collect sales taxes on the orders I make. How does that have anything to do at all with the topic?

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

http://www.newson6.com/story/25325012/grove-realtor-charged-with-child-molestation

GROVE, Oklahoma - A mother of a Grove 17 year old said Smith took her son to work at the farm and tried to get him to perform sexual acts, but he refused. She said many Grove boys work at the farm, and she believes there are more victims.

OMG, my parents said my childhood dog went to a farm in Oklahoma. What has he done to Sparky?

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Or nailed to a cross butt forward and set on fire. They could warn children and provide a wholesome outlet for police who may otherwise prey on old people and small children.

Realtors, bankers, attorneys, Neo-Nazi Cannibals, Zyklon B Chemist, Pedophiles, Serial Killers, Rachel Maddow; all entities at around the same level of trustworthiness.

So you started off with the argument: "Donald Trump is controlling the media exactly like 1984 omg omg!"
Then when that argument got wtfpwned, you changed the subject multiple times and demanded answers to questions that were completely off topic.
Interspersed, of course, were your trademark comments calling all opponents idiots and lamenting the end of western civilization.

Sorry, but nobody wants to play your game when you change the rules like a bitch every time you are losing.

At some point in my life it dawned on me that nobody ever talked about what the conservatives wanted to conserve. After some further investigation I concluded:
Conservatives want to conserve the wealth of the wealthy and the poverty of the poor.

That's why they call themselves conservatives.

You will find no stronger conservationists than hunters and fisherman. I would guess 95%+ Republicans.

jazz_music says

WHY DON'T CONSERVATIVES WANT TO CONSERVE THE PLANET?

Because it's public property, not private property.

Pass a law stating that every acre of land lost to sea-level rising is replaced by confiscating an acre of land from the richest land owners, and then conservatives will care about climate change.

APOCALYPSEFUCKisShostikovitch says

Send him to Hell. It awaits all REALTORs!

And priests and cardinals, apparently. BTW, the Realtor(TM) is clearly an amateur at this racket. A real pro would have joined the priesthood. Customers pay cash in advance and offer up their own children for molestation, then try to collect imaginary suites on a cloud after they're dead.

curious2 says

And priests and cardinals, apparently. BTW, the Realtor(TM) is clearly an amateur at this racket. A real pro would have joined the priesthood. Customers pay cash in advance and offer up their own children for molestation, then try to collect imaginary suites on a cloud after they're dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/28/asia/cardinal-pell-australia/index.html
Cardinal George Pell, one of the most senior members of the Catholic Church, has been charged with multiple historical sexual assault offenses in his home country of Australia, police said Thursday.

Strategist says

curious2 says

And priests and cardinals, apparently. BTW, the Realtor(TM) is clearly an amateur at this racket. A real pro would have joined the priesthood. Customers pay cash in advance and offer up their own children for molestation, then try to collect imaginary suites on a cloud after they're dead.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/28/asia/cardinal-pell-australia/index.html

Cardinal George Pell, one of the most senior members of the Catholic Church, has been charged with multiple historical sexual assault offenses in his home country of Australia, police said Thursday.

No religious leader is ever capable of molesting anyone. How can a man of God ever do such a thing. It's the fucking liberals who spread such horrible rumors.

Poe's Law

Strategist says

No religious leader is ever capable of molesting anyone. How can a man of God ever do such a thing

Well then there was a certain Prophet of a certain religion..

Fucking White Male says

You will find no stronger conservationists than hunters and fisherman. I would guess 95%+ Republicans.

This.

Yeah this thread is just more Me=good, you=bad nonsense.

Ex: Why don't democrats care about murder? Why don't democrats care about rape culture?
Why don't democrats care about poor people? Why don't democrats care about our environment? Why don't democrats care about war?

See that?! Just like chutes and ladders, anyone w a 6 year old intellect can play this game.

Presidential!

His communication is what got him elected AND simultaneously exposed the fake news media for what they are. You have to respect brilliance when you see it.

You can get all pissy about this if you want. Its pure wasted energy that further drives rational people away from respecting your judgement. (In short, Trump is trolling you brilliantly.)

Yup there's your guy that has Russian Prostitutes piss on his face.
Dissinvited someone that tried to invite themselves because he's grossed out by other people's body fluids.

Once again Noam Chomsky is correct. The conservative right is stupid as shit and was fooled by propaganda from big oil, coal, and gas. This is why the conservative right views climate change as a political and cultural issue instead of as a national and economic security issue that is established scientific fact. This is sheer stupidity on the part of the right, and what makes them unforgivably and hopelessly stupid is their unwillingness to admit this truth.

jazz_music says

except for our beloved capitalists

In what economic system do you find a lack of selfishness? The further you get from free markets, the greater the wealth disparity, the greater the poverty rates, and the less freedom the average person has for personal decision making.

How about you compare the pollution levels of capitalistic vs socialistic countries? Then come back and tell me how well the environment is doing N Korea, China, Venezuela, or the old USSR.

I like this, not Ivory tower Obama. I thought you lefties would have figured it out by now-I need a public servant not a demigod sitting atop a mountain speaking in latin.

Dan8267 says

that is established scientific fact.

What exactly are the facts that you feel are established? Climate change has indeed been politicized. In fact, most of the disagreement stems from the political reactions to global warming.

Although, I rarely see anyone discuss the facts in an intellectually honest way. Even in this video, Noam rolls through about 3 huge assumptions, then goes on to create a strawman that boils down to "those who dont agree w me are ignorant." The funniest part to me was hearing him piss on the opinion of mere meteorologists, when Noam himself is a goddamned linguist. HAHA.

As long as the establishment uses global warming as an excuse to tax the average person in favor of the rich and ruling classes, this conversation is doomed to failure.

Don't dish out if you can't take it back. Lefties-I can say what I want-he said something back to me-the end of western civilization is here-stop-or don't till 2020.

CBOEtrader says

His communication is what got him elected AND simultaneously exposed the fake news media for what they are. You have to respect brilliance when you see it.

You can get all pissy about this if you want. Its pure wasted energy that further drives rational people away from respecting your judgement. (In short, Trump is trolling you brilliantly.)

It took you until 2016 Donald Trump, to see the media for what they are?

Where have you been the past few decades?

Glad to see the Right wingnuts try to defend a 5 time DRAFT DODGING COWARD.

look here's the fucking deal. If Donald Trump does anything, it's a win. So shut the fuck up stupid liberals. Us Republicans are finally in charge for once, so we're gonna fix the mess yous created, so help us God. I prefer to speak in the plural form of I, we speak for us.

Trump was winning when he bellowed on about the wall for over a year and then given the chance to do something about it, being the great negotiator and businessman we is, we balked on the wall for more important things like Obamacare repeal and replace, because we been going on about that ever since back before it even was a thing. SUCK MY DICK. Winning

CBOEtrader says

His communication is what got him elected AND simultaneously exposed the fake news media for what they are. You have to respect brilliance when you see it.

You can get all pissy about this if you want. Its pure wasted energy that further drives rational people away from respecting your judgement. (In short, Trump is trolling you brilliantly.)

Tenpoundbass says

Yup there's your guy that has Russian Prostitutes piss on his face.

Dissinvited someone that tried to invite themselves because he's grossed out by other people's body fluids.

lostand confused says

I like this, not Ivory tower Obama. I thought you lefties would have figured it out by now-I need a public servant not a demigod sitting atop a mountain speaking in latin.

The left spends day and night focusing on him negatively, I don't see why he is wrong in defending himself.

jazz_music says

without ever clicking on the link provided in the OP:

An info-graphic is not science. Have you ever done complex modeling? We humans have been notoriously bad at properly applying complex models to predictions and real life risk management. Do you remember 2008? The housing market is many, many, many less complex than these climate models. THE ONLY intellectually honest approach would be to give a RANGE of possibilities w estimates of % chances for each incremental piece of the range.

Even then, you still haven't answered my question. What do you feel are the established facts? If all you are saying is "people fuck up the planet", then we agree. Thats the easy part.

The hard part is deciding what to do about it. This second part is the where politicized nonsense takes over and we get crap deals like the Paris Accords.

CBOEtrader says

What exactly are the facts that you feel are established?

None because I don't feel. I know. I could relist all the climate change facts and the references. You can also do a Google search of "climate change site:patrick.net" and see the various threads and comments I wrote on it. Repeating this information is pointless.

The real question is what the hell would it take for you to publicly accept that man-made climate change is real, is important, and must be addressed in policy? I suspect your position is entirely based on what you believe you personal financial interests are. And the fact is, if you haven't realized that climate change is already negatively impacting the economy and thus, at least indirectly, your material quality of life, then I doubt any facts will make you realize this.

If you understand anything about business, then you should realize that a problem become exponentially more expensive to solve the longer you let it fester. There will be no miracle technology to cheaply solve climate change. There is nothing in the entire history of technological advancement that would suggest a miracle technology would ever be created to solve the problem of climate change, nonetheless one that is just right around the corner.

Letting climate change and pollution run unchecked is just bad business management. Unfortunately, if the costs are officially recorded in the ledgers, the bean counters pretend those costs don't even exist. This is sheer stupidity.

CBOEtrader says

jazz_music says

without ever clicking on the link provided in the OP:

An info-graphic is not science. Have you ever done complex modeling?

NASA has done this, and this is their field.

Show deniers an infographic, and they say it's an oversimplification. How them the data behind the graphic, and they say it's too complicated to understand. Image if we treated other problems like this. Imagine if we did nothing about terrorism because it's too complicated. Imagine if we let the whole banking system collapse because it's too complicated to manage.

Hey, I've done the whole "we're in the same tribe thing".

Dan8267 says

If you understand anything about business, then you should realize that a problem become exponentially more expensive to solve the longer you let it fester.

Dan8267 says

Letting climate change and pollution run unchecked is just bad business management.

Dan8267 says

as a national and economic security issue

But there comes a point where all the patronizing doesn't make a difference and you have to shame someone and lower his social status for promoting debunked lies or doing something that threatens the nation or entire species. Otherwise those tribal instincts will cause our species to end just like 95% of all species have gone extinct.

Humanities survival is not guaranteed. It never has been. Foolishness can no longer be tolerated. We simply cannot afford to make a single extinction-level mistake.

jazz_music says

Now that there is no such thing as job security, EVERYONE'S life really does depend on conforming to the dominant tribal identifications

Actually, class, not race or gender or orientation, is the tribalism of the 21st century. The rich white guy is more likely to hang out with a rich Indian or Chinese guy than a white STEM worker or a white coal miner or a white middle-tier manager. Class is everything in the 21st century.

They want to conserve the social and religious structure of the 1950s. They long ago stopped caring about conserving the environment. They sometimes say that they care about the 'real' environmental problems, but they tend to disregard the problems that environmental scientists identify as important.

Yeah, I liked that quote by justme.

Anyone who says, "Temperatures [or water levels] will rise" X, are wrong. That is not a scientific conclusion. Science is based on odds and reason. It is not about absolutes. There is almost no such thing.

Dan8267 says

None because I don't feel. I know.

This is how I know your opinion in BS. No scientist would EVER say he KNOWS something as complex as climate change model predictions. A scientist would be able to very clearly state what he knows for certain, as well as what he expects based on data. He would furthermore give standard deviations from his expectation, as well as point out the larger assumptions upon which he is basing that expectation.

No scientist would ever state "I KNOW". "I KNOW" is something a megalomaniac programmer who is desperate to prove himself smart would say.

CBOEtrader says

This is how I know your opinion in BS. No scientist would EVER say he KNOWS something as complex as climate change model predictions.

https://climate.nasa.gov/evidence/

Climate change: How do we know?

Scientific evidence for warming of the climate system is unequivocal.

The evidence for rapid climate change is compelling: Sea level rise, Global temperature rise, Warming oceans, Shrinking ice sheets, Declining Arctic sea ice, Glacial retreat, Extreme events, Ocean acidification, Decreased snow cover

Reality just completely contradicted your statement that "No scientist would EVER say he KNOWS something as complex as climate change model predictions". Are you willing to admit that you were wrong?