patrick.net

Hmmm, poppy fields? The occupation could pay for itself.

Though, I suppose that's what they said about Iraq too.

You're awful fond of the campaign for liberty site. Do you post there too?

Even progressives like myself are wondering how we can still be in Iraq, Afghanistan.

I highly recommend Ron Paul's End the Fed and The Revolution: A Manifesto. And this is coming from a Pinko Commie or whatever Rush is calling us Portlanders these days. It definitely gives you a new perspective.

And with things going the way they are in the banking reforms, healthcare and wars, I think the Libertarian Party has a leg to stand on come 2012 if the powers that be allow the candidates to debate. Is Ron Paul running, Peter Schiff?

Don't let the media pick our candidates.

If Obama can get us out of Afghanistan by 2012 I'd actually be pretty impressed. I never believed for a second that we'd be out of there before the end of his first term.

This isn't a situation where you can literally just leave overnight. Unwinding military bases, getting troops out, and not getting shot in the back while you leave makes the process take a lot longer than would be ideal.

If someone had a credible way to pull out overnight, I'd support it completely.

And, no, I won't vote for Obama in 2012 unless we're completely done with at least one of these wars.

We will have military bases in Afghanistan and Iraq when we are done. Kind of like how we still have bases in Germany, Italy and Japan and how long has it been since WWII? A few years ago I remember reading about the 14 'permanent' bases already in Iraq not sure what the status of those are now.

Even if we do wind up with permanent bases in Iraq or Afghanistan, it will be nothing like japan or germany.

In those countries the wars were with governments. When the governments were defeated, the wars stopped. We were able to help rebuild and then leave.

The problem in Iraq and Afghanistan is that we're not fighting governments. There's no leader who can surrender to "end" the war (and, thus, there's no real way to win). Any bases left will simply be constant targets of attacks.

Kevin says

We were able to help rebuild and then leave.

I wish that were true. Japan, Korea, Germany, you name it we are still there.

Kevin, seriously look into the bases built in Iraq. We are in the dark about this side of the war, too. We aren't going anywhere. Gotta keep those barrels of oil trading in US dollars, god forbid they get traded in EUROS;O)

First, Bush was a terrible president. But Obama is even worse, IMO. Promising to be an agent of change, he kept Bush's Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, and inspite of the rhetoric, he's kept the same failed policies in place. Now he is expanding this war in a country that is known to be the "Graveyard of Armies" and for good reason. The recent history lesson is what happened there to the Red Army. If you are in favor of this latest expansion and support Obama on this, honestly ask yourself this question: Do I believe in this war so much that I would be willing to sacrifice the life of one of my own kids for it? If not YOUR kid, why someone else's? Lives are being lost there .... real people with mothers and fathers back home .... the question is FOR WHAT ??

@Ray

I wish Obama had done things a little differently too, but we have to keep in mind that it took us 8 years to get into this mess. Unfortunately, it's going to take more than 8 months to get out of it. Like Kevin said--you can't destroy a country then just pack up and leave. We broke it, so now we have to fix it up to a point where it can survive on its own. Otherwise you end up destabilizing the whole region and inviting the undesirables back to take over...

No one wants war, but sometimes it's needed. Freedom isn't free.
As an Army Retiree, I am ready to serve as needed and have volunteered as such.

Volunteer Status

"Who want's War?"

Good question...

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/12/08/iraq.explosions/index.html

Latest explosion five car bomber in a row bomb minister buildings.
Can anyone make sense of this, why any opposition in Iraq, would create a ruckus when we are just weeks from pulling out?

I mean it would seem to me, any remnants of Husein's regime, would gladly be chauffeurs to the air port and even handle the luggage for them, with a smile and a spring in their step while they are at it.

Where's that scratch audio recording of Ben Luaden this would be the queue for his ghost to give a world message, on some mystery cassette long about now. Funny we get these tapes, but can't get squat out of the delivery guy. Yeah right, we did invent Water boarding did we not? Come on Obama if you are going to continue the Bush doctrine, then you gotta play it to the letter brotha!

jvolstad says

No one wants war

This is incorrect. Most people want war, as long as they aren't the ones paying or harmed in it. People are generally too stupid to foresee being on the losing side of a war until it's way too late. War is profitable. War is meaning. War is drama. War is the crucible of our civilization. It's also a crock.

, but sometimes it’s needed. Freedom isn’t free.

"Sometimes" indeed. I knew going in that the asymmetric nature of modern civil wars was going to make armed intervention in Afghanistan and Iraq very costly, both to us and the natives.

Kosovo, Restore Hope, Desert Storm, Just Cause, Urgent Fury, SE Asia, Korea, WW2, Banana Wars, WW1, Spanish-America War.

"Freedom isn't free" is the kind of thinking, or lack thereof, that gets you into a lot of stupid situations.

While I'm not an isolationist, only with WWs 1 & 2 in that list were the independence and prerogatives of the USA threatened, tenuously at best. We should help friends, but not fight for them. This is a dangerous world -- when attacked, we should act to punish the agents of the attack, but only the WWs required our warfighters to enter the fray. Everything else were wars of choice.

War gives people something to fight for. Those in power use the notion of “a good war” to promote patriotism and distract the masses from the fact that an overly powerful government is the BIGGEST threat the people. If you are focused on fighting a foreign war you won’t notice that the biggest threat to your freedom and prosperity is the government you are fighting for. This strategy worked for the Soviets until they went bankrupt (If I’m not mistaken its involvement in Afghanistan helped push the Soviet Union to the brink). Wonder if we will learn the lesson before our Union crumbles too.

I find it very strange that in the past eight years we have successfully located and killed
dozens of "high level" Taliban and al Qeada commanders with Predator drones and Hellfire missiles, yet we have been somehow unable to locate the three most important
targets, Osama bin Laden, Ayman al Zawahiri, and Mullah Mohammed Omar.
Why are the top three "leaders" always invisible to our technology when all the others are often
tracked down in a few months after being appointed as top al Qaeda commanders?
It's like a bad Star Trek episode where the bit player in the red shirt always gets killed
in the first five minutes of the show but the stars never get hurt.
It seems reasonable to believe that there could be a deliberate attempt not to
capture or kill this triumvirate which keeps alive the justification for endless war in Afghanistan.

I don't hear anybody hollering for war. Is Obama escalating it because we want it, or the people who own him want it?

And WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE? If this was not a democrat congress and whitehouse the libs would be hitting the streets with a vengeance.

War Is What we do as a nation always has always will. he is The President in This reality.

His Nobel Speech explained this as perfectly as words can.

Nomograph says

A better question to ask yourself is why root for our enemy to win?

And who would that be?

and 7 of them under obama!!
BenCarsonForPrez!

tatupu70 says

I wish Obama had done things a little differently too, but we have to keep in mind that it took us 8 years to get into this mess

Done! says

"Who want's War?"

Holy SHIT! Done! is back?

My mistake. This is just a really old thread I never read.

I'm disappointed i only got 1 fish to bite...
This strategy will be put on hold for further review...

Dan8267 says

My mistake. This is just a really old thread I never read.