patrick.net

"I have observed that the liberal agenda's invasive social policies foster economic irresponsibility, pathological dependency and social conflict." Quote from a doctor who has studied mental disorders for 40 years.

Are liberals out of their minds? Apparently the answer is YES. Perhaps thats why they refuse to acknowledge simple concepts like: If you drastically expand the money supply - price's increase. Constantly spending more money than you have will cause financial stress, ultimately bankrupcy. Debasing your own currency will lead to economic problems. Gold does have value. 2 + 2 = 4

Honest Abe says

2 + 2 = 4

Your math is wrong. In Oceania, 2 + 2 = 5. You wouldn't want to confuse Nomo now would you?

RayAmerica says

Almost the entire “healthcare” system we have is a rigged game. Instead of being involved in teaching people about prevention (not much money in that), our system simply repairs the abuse Americans inflict on their own bodies. I’ve seen studies that indicate that up to 70% of all disease and health problems are directly related to lifestyle, i.e. poor eating & drinking habits, lack of exercise, smoking, overweight, etc. The system the government is attempting to force all of us into does not address the problem of individuals abusing themselves, nor does it reward those that strive to live a healthy life. What’s wrong with this picture?

I work for a company which choose to address exactly that this year.
Simply put we no longer have a copay, but we have a deductible of 800 per year for employee only coverage. We do still pay a bi-weekly contribution, but 90% of it is also subsidized.
During the course of the year, we are given opportunities to learn and do something for our health: attend fitness seminars over 6weeks, do fitness challenges, visit the gym and track the fitness. Each activity successful completion is measured and if achieved you are set a side a certain dollar amount into account. For example 6 weeks counseling on better eating is $100 worth. All together you may earn $800 i.e. exact amount that covers the cost of your deductible.

The healthy most likely will do the programs and earn the money, but never use it. (They are transferable over years, but you lose them if you leave the company). Still a benefit, at minimum their health is better and they know more
The unhealthy ones, have an opportunity to recapture the cost of their care up to deductible. Rest if any outpocket needed they are paying for their earlier carelessness.

do I not like it? Yes I do not. I do not think the healthy ones got rewarded. I think we were all given similar opportunities.

I am sure company will use results somehow to say (we cannot tell you specifically who) but on average that many improved their health, hence premium for the company is less.

Funny though, If I was given real dollars, lets say $15 each time I am at the gym. I think I would be there more often. I would find time in a flash.

The modern liberal agenda with its welfare state, and invasive government regulations undermines the foundations of freedom, social order and adult cooperation. The socialist, collectivist agenda is founded on fundamental misconceptions of human nature and human freedom. It misconcieves the social nature of man. It misconcieves the development of adult competence and personal sovereigenty. It misconcieves the independent nature of how adults interact with each other in economic and social realms. These misconceptions result in policies destructive to freedom and social order.

Governments always declare their purposes to be the protection of the peoples rights and the maintainence social order. But even with the best INTENTIONS, government routinely violate the rights of society and disorganize the order they are assigned to protect. You might call that "The Law of Unintended Consequences".

The larger government becomes, the more government strips and eliminates peoples freedoms, disrupts social order, and causes economic havoc. All for "beneficial" reasons, and for the "common good". Just ask any of our numerous "Czar's" - they'll tell you, comrade. Now get back to work, others are depending on the fruits of your labor.

Honest Abe says

The modern liberal agenda with its welfare state, and invasive government regulations undermines the foundations of freedom, social order and adult cooperation. The socialist, collectivist agenda is founded on fundamental misconceptions of human nature and human freedom. It misconcieves the social nature of man. It misconcieves the development of adult competence and personal sovereigenty. It misconcieves the independent nature of how adults interact with each other in economic and social realms. These misconceptions result in policies destructive to freedom and social order.

No one is stopping you from leaving the country. In fact, we encourage it.

Wow, you bought a thesaurus? Good for you.

Now, let's work on sentence structure and the ability to formulate coherent thoughts.

Thesaurus? Sentence structure? Haha, "any of these potentially severe states of mind can drastically disrupt an individuals ability to make rational decisions", or make logical conclusions for that matter. Liberals, like you, have no logic - only "feelings", which are disruptive to social order and freedom.

elliemae says

Now, let’s work on sentence structure and the ability to formulate coherent thoughts.

This is beginning to sound like a broken record. Do ever have anything else to contribute Ms. "I never ever insult anyone" elliemae?

Abe, Rayray, ya'll constantly attack anyone who disagrees with you and are incredibly rude. You certainly don't contribute to the conversation in a positive way.

Honest Abe says

Any of these potentially severe states of mind can drastically disrupt an individuals ability to make rational decisions, cope with the challenges of everyday life or make intelligent on-line posts.

RayAmerica says

Typical reply by the left when they can’t answer a simple question.

The answer to your question as to whether I ever have anything else to contribute is yes. Unfortunately, when it comes to answering your asinine comments there really isn't much else to say. I've said it before, and shall say it again, "Spirited discourse is encouraged. Mean-spirited discourse is not."

Your comments consistently fall into the latter category, and as such you shouldn't expect us not to fuck with you.

For all the avowed good intentions of liberals, socialists, elitists, intellectuals, democrats, tree huggers and do-gooders, the political reality is essentially sociopathic.

The cost of infantilization of people is a broad based crippling of their competetence. The adult children's dependent attachment to government comes at an enormous price. Much of this can be attributed to neurotic and other irrational mental processes as evidenced by envy, jealousy, feelings of inferiority, strivings for power, victimization, domination, revenge, infantile claims to entitlement, indulgence, or obsessive pursuit of contol and regulation.

Any of these potentially severe states of mind can drastically disrupt an individuals ability to make rational decisions, cope with the challenges of everyday life or make intelligent on-line posts.

I know you are, but what am I?

The more you post the same thing, the dumber you appear. You certainly don't "make intelligent on-line posts" when you lack the ability to say something, anything, of substance.

elliemae,

I realized a long time ago that there are certain people in this world who need to keep up their ideologies even in face of facts that contradict their opinions that they regard as "facts." I know it's irrational and even lacks intellectual honesty. These people exist even in my family. I've learned to detach for the most part, when it doesn't concern me directly. When their opinions based on their other opinions that they claim are "facts" which are simply just more opinions affect me directly, I take direct action.

I don't do this on Internet boards like this one, because most the the banter here is meaningless and tends to be for entertainment purposes only. It's not like anything from around here is going to make real change in the political/sociological landscape. Most people here, who come from a certain political persuasion, seem to be spouting off in anger about conspiracy theories of one kind or another whether their theories are based in facts or not.

I take most of what I read here with a huge grain of salt, or perhaps an entire 20 pound salt-lick.

Oh, and I've seen such nasty, illogical, irrational, uninspired, bigoted, and hate inspired rhetoric coming from some of the most prolific posters on the right here that I hesitate to post anything at all. Sometimes the level of discourse here makes me feel like I'd get more enlightenment coming from having a conversation with a turnip.

Hey, simchaland, if you really have read enough of the posts with an un-biased view, you would see that the nasty, illogical, irrational, uninspired, bigoted, and hate inspired rhetoric is not limited to left or right.

I almost forgot, I really, really hate turnips. I think they are dirty and dumb, and deserve their low spot in society.

MCM says

I almost forgot, I really, really hate turnips. I think they are dirty and dumb, and deserve their low spot in society.

Precisely my point, good man. At least you read my post.

If society honors freedom and the rights of individuals, the peoples choices will be shaped by the ideals of individual liberty, self-reliance, personal responsibility, voluntary cooperation and respect for the rights and sovereignty of others.

If, on the other hand, society honors the liberal agenda's principals of coercive collectivism, then the peoples choices will be shaped by ideals of entitlement, welfare dependency, state regulation and the socialization of the major categories of human action.

BTW, "Minds afflicted with severe disorders do not exercise free choice or free will in any ordinary sense of those terms". Dr Rosssiter - The Psychological Cause of Political Madness. In other words, liberals have brain damage.

Honest Abe says

If, on the other hand, society honors the liberal agenda’s principals of coercive collectivism, then the peoples choices will be shaped by ideals of entitlement, welfare dependency, state regulation and the socialization of the major categories of human action.

Wow, that's not what I believe as a liberal at all. It's amazing that the right wing nutters say they know what liberals believe when, in fact, they are fighting straw men because they have absolutely no clue as to what liberals really believe.

As a Liberal, I believe in free thought, equality for all people, free expression, liberty (a cognate of the word "liberal"), the pursuit of happiness, our rights enshrined in the Bill of Rights and the Constitution, using government power wisely to create a level playing field where there exists greatest amount of opportunity all of our country's citizens, self-reliance so that one is in a position to help others if need be, personal and corporate responsibility, patriotic cooperation (everyone working toward the betterment of our country), respect for all people and their beliefs, cultures, religions, sexualities, or anything that is intrinsic to the diversity that makes our country great, the right of dissent, personal freedom of choice, a balance between the individual and society to bring about the greatest liberty, health, wealth, and happiness for the greatest number of people. And I understand that you can't always get what you want because in the real word, everything has limits.

And here is blurb from an article talking about a scientific study with actual facts showing that conservatism is a form of mental illness:

"Here are the facts. A meta-analysis culled from 88 samples in 12 countries, and with an N of 22,818, revealed that “several psychological variables predicted political conservatism.” Which variables exactly? In order of predictive power: Death anxiety, system instability, dogmatism/intolerance of ambiguity, closed-mindedness, low tolerance of uncertainty, high needs for order, structure, and closure, low integrative complexity, fear of threat and loss, and low self-esteem. The researchers conclude, a little chillingly, that “the core ideology of conservatism stresses resistance to change and a justification of inequality.”" From "Is Political Conservatism a Mild Form of Insanity?"

Oh and here is the source material for the article: "Political Conservatism as Motivated Social Cognition" by John T. Jost, Jack Glaser, Arie W. Kruglanski, & Frank J. Sulloway

Sim - YOU obviously believe what you stated. HOWEVER, coercive collectivism, entitlement mentality, welfare dependency, oppressive regulation, big bloated over-reaching government, "leveling the playing field", predatory efforts to manipulate, dominate, control and exploit, forcing the individual and society to bring about "the greatest amount of happiness to the greatest number of people" are traits and trademarks of liberals. Liberals apparently need an interventionist government, since only then can the masses be protected from a world that is fundamentally unsafe for them. Big government excuses people from the responsibility of themselves, and thrives on the dependency of people by encouraging them to remain childlike.

In other words, 99.5% of liberals are giving you a "bad name". Liberty means responsibility which is why liberals (but not you) dread it.

Sim - YOU obviously believe what you stated. HOWEVER, coercive collectivism, entitlement mentality, welfare dependency, oppressive regulation, big bloated over-reaching government, "leveling the playing field", predatory efforts to manipulate, dominate, control and exploit, forcing the individual and society to bring about "the greatest amount of happiness to the greatest number of people" are traits and trademarks of liberals. Liberals apparently need an interventionist government, since only then can the masses be protected from a world that is fundamentally unsafe for them. Big government excuses people from the responsibility of themselves, and thrives on the dependency of people by encouraging them to remain childlike.

In other words, 99.5% of liberals are giving you a "bad name". Liberty means responsibility which is why liberals (but not you) dread it.

And Abe brings out the strawman again. I like your persistance...

Honest Abe says

In other words, 99.5% of liberals are giving you a “bad name”. Liberty means responsibility which is why liberals (but not you) dread it.

No, fear is the driving force behind conservatism, didn't you read the study? (Oh, right, I forgot...)

Sim - you're darned right I'm afraid. I'm afraid of more inflation, more pork projects, more fraud, more waste, more corruption, more oppressive regulation, more looting of the 53% of Americans who pay taxes, more police state measures, more unnecessary war, more centralization of power, more socialism, more bailouts, more welfare, more "feel good" laws, more double standard laws, more thought crime laws, more unemployment, more deficit spending, more entitlements, more dependence on the government tit, more destruction of our currency, more destruction of our economy, and more destruction of our once great country.

Millions of others are also concerned about these things, apparently you aren't one of them.

You must not be concerned either. That says a lot about your mentality.

'YES, everythings going GREAT...if you're a SOCIALIST.

Honest Abe says

You must not be concerned either. That says a lot about your mentality.
‘YES, everythings going GREAT…if you’re a SOCIALIST.

Actually the level of inequality is historically high right now. There is a very small group of super rich and then a large base of people barely making ends meet. That is the opposite of socialism and is the unfortunate result of too much free market and too little regulation.

Honest Abe says

Sim - you’re darned right I’m afraid. I’m afraid of more inflation, more pork projects, more fraud, more waste, more corruption, more oppressive regulation, more looting of the 53% of Americans who pay taxes, more police state measures, more unnecessary war, more centralization of power, more socialism, more bailouts, more welfare, more “feel good” laws, more double standard laws, more thought crime laws, more unemployment, more deficit spending, more entitlements, more dependence on the government tit, more destruction of our currency, more destruction of our economy, and more destruction of our once great country.
Millions of others are also concerned about these things, apparently you aren’t one of them.

Wow. You are certainly make fear an equal opportunity thing. Half your fears are from what happened during 8 years of the conservative Bush administration and half are from the current liberal Obama administration. You must live in a dark room deep below the earth.

Let's see, the liberals give us:
more inflation, more pork projects, more fraud, more waste, more corruption, more oppressive regulation, more looting of the 53% of Americans who pay taxes, more socialism, more bailouts, more welfare, more “feel good” laws, more unemployment, more deficit spending, more entitlements, more dependence on the government tit, more destruction of our currency

But wait we get from the conservatives:
more inflation, more pork projects, more fraud, more waste, more corruption, more police state measures, more unnecessary war, more centralization of power, more double standard laws, more thought crime laws, more unemployment, more deficit spending, more entitlements, more destruction of our currency

It does suck to be you.

No-Mo, I haven't created anything dark for myself what so ever. Politicians of both parties (primary democrats and R.I.N.O.'s) are the one's who are dismantling and destroying our once great country.

Bob 2468 - Aren't you concerned with the direction of our country either??? In a recent survey 80% of Americans said they were unhappy with government and "simply do not trust the government". Gee- that would make YOU the minority opinion, wouldn't it?

Tatupu - the only entity that needs MORE regulation is GOVERNMENT.

BTW, I love the personal attacks (I live in a dark place, it sucks to be me, etc.) hahaha. It means I've struck a nerve, and I'm right on track.

Liberalism is poison, freedom is nourishment - pick one.

MCM says

I almost forgot, I really, really hate turnips. I think they are dirty and dumb, and deserve their low spot in society.

You've gone too far! Turnips deserve love too!

Knock knock.
Who's there?
Turnip.
Turnip who?
Turnip the heat - it's cold in here!

I learned today that there are turnip jokes available on the interweb.

Honest Abe says

Liberalism is poison

Again, who appointed you as an expert on what Liberalism means?

Fears that are based in irrational bias and mis-interpretations of reality are phobias. If phobias interfere significantly with a person's daily functioning, they become mental disorders. It's food for thought.

By the way, Webster's defines "Liberal" as:

Main Entry: lib·er·al
Pronunciation: \ˈli-b(ə-)rəl\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin liberalis suitable for a freeman, generous, from liber free; perhaps akin to Old English lēodan to grow, Greek eleutheros free
Date: 14th century
1 a : of, relating to, or based on the liberal arts (liberal education) archaic : of or befitting a man of free birth
2 a : marked by generosity : openhanded (liberal giver) b : given or provided in a generous and openhanded way (liberal meal) c : ample, full
3 : obsolete : lacking moral restraint : licentious (Simcha's comment: This obsolete definition is the one that conservatives seem to blow up into THE definition of Liberal)
4 : not literal or strict : loose (a liberal translation)
5 : broad-minded; especially : not bound by authoritarianism, orthodoxy, or traditional forms
6 a : of, favoring, or based upon the principles of liberalism b capitalized : of or constituting a political party advocating or associated with the principles of political liberalism; especially : of or constituting a political party in the United Kingdom associated with ideals of individual especially economic freedom, greater individual participation in government, and constitutional, political, and administrative reforms designed to secure these objectives

— lib·er·al·ly \-b(ə-)rə-lē\ adverb

— lib·er·al·ness noun

synonyms: liberal, generous, bountiful, munificent mean giving or given freely and unstintingly. Liberal suggests openhandedness in the giver and largeness in the thing or amount given (a teacher liberal with her praise). Generous stresses warmhearted readiness to give more than size or importance of the gift (a generous offer of help). Bountiful suggests lavish, unremitting giving or providing (children spoiled by bountiful presents). Munificent suggests a scale of giving appropriate to lords or princes (a munificent foundation grant).

Sim - that would be great if it were true. In reality liberals persistently attempt to expand and extend governments intrusion into everyone's lives. Their social engineering "experiments" have created a whiney, crybaby, dependent, nanny state mentality. Due to oppressive over-regulation, they have caused a melt-down in the economic, financial and business systems in America. They are the champions of predatory business interference, a weak money system, burdensome social policies and the destructive , negative, unintended consequences that accompany them.

With the illusion of "helping" the poor and downtrodden, liberals are leading the country on the road to serfdom. Liberal policies seem like a good idea at first, primarily because they "feel good", at least at the outset. Liberal policies increase the people's dependence on government which further drag America deeper into debt.

The path we've embarked upon, in the name of good, is a familiar one. The unspeakable horrors of Nazism, Stalinism and Maoism were simply the end result of a long evolution of ideas such as liberalism, socialism, communism and fascism leading to the consolidation of power in a central government in the name of "social justice".

Liberalism? NO THANK YOU !!!

Here, I did the work for you... From Webster's again...

Main Entry: pho·bia
Pronunciation: \ˈfō-bē-ə\
Function: noun
Etymology: -phobia
Date: 1786
: an exaggerated usually inexplicable and illogical fear of a particular object, class of objects, or situation

Again, you attempt to define Liberals based on your own irrational fears and propaganda left over from the 80's. When you have facts to offer, let me know. Remember though, I don't define facts as facts = opinion + propaganda like some conservatives around here. I know that a fact is something that is objectively real.

Hahaha, perhaps you haven't noticed whats going on in America. I personally wouldn't call record unemployment, massive underemployment, inflation, the destruction of the dollar, massive tax-payer funded bailouts, the nationalization of private business's, an unending series of wars and "off the chart" fiscal irresponsibility exaggerated, inexplicable or illogical fear. Its reality - 80% of Americans are upset by it - and you call it exaggerated - hahaha.

Honest Abe says

Hahaha, perhaps you haven’t noticed whats going on in America. I personally wouldn’t call record unemployment, massive underemployment, inflation, the destruction of the dollar, massive tax-payer funded bailouts, the nationalization of private business’s, an unending series of wars and “off the chart” fiscal irresponsibility exaggerated, inexplicable or illogical fear. Its reality - 80% of Americans are upset by it - and you call it exaggerated - hahaha.

No, I blame the real culprits who created this mess by being educated about the real history and facts around how we got here. Let me tell you, it sure wasn't Liberalism that got us here.

simchaland says

Wow, that’s not what I believe as a liberal at all. It’s amazing that the right wing nutters say they know what liberals believe when, in fact, they are fighting straw men because they have absolutely no clue as to what liberals really believe.

Do you really not see the hypocracy of your own statement? You claim to know more about the anti-Obama, anti-government types better than they know themselves.

The funniest part of your whole soap-box post is that you fail to understand how the political term "liberal" has been demolished to not meaning much of anything. The actual definition is much closer to the libertarian usage than to the more common democratic "liberal" usage of the term.

From wikipedia, "Sir William Harcourt, a prominent Liberal politician in the Victorian era, said this about liberalism in 1872:

"A crowd waits outside Leeds Town Hall to see them elect a liberal party candidate during the 1880 general elections.

If there be any party which is more pledged than another to resist a policy of restrictive legislation, having for its object social coercion, that party is the Liberal party. (Cheers.) But liberty does not consist in making others do what you think right, (Hear, hear.) The difference between a free Government and a Government which is not free is principally this—that a Government which is not free interferes with everything it can, and a free Government interferes with nothing except what it must. A despotic Government tries to make everybody do what it wishes; a Liberal Government tries, as far as the safety of society will permit, to allow everybody to do as he wishes. It has been the tradition of the Liberal party consistently to maintain the doctrine of individual liberty. It is because they have done so that England is the place where people can do more what they please than in any other country in the world...It is this practice of allowing one set of people to dictate to another set of people what they shall do, what they shall think, what they shall drink, when they shall go to bed, what they shall buy, and where they shall buy it, what wages they shall get and how they shall spend them, against which the Liberal party have always protested."

Sounds like the UK liberal party used to have a lot in common with the Tea Partiers. Are liberals racist as well?

Um yeah, right... No, "Liberal" became a dirty word when Liberals allowed Ronnie Raygun to creatively define what "Liberal" meant with vapid Republican propaganda. Since then conservatives have been fighting a caricatured "Liberal" straw man. Sorry, you conservos don't get to define Liberalism. We Liberals get to define Liberalism for ourselves. You can try to confuse the general public with your rhetoric, propaganda, and other BS, but you can't confuse we Liberals. We know what we stand for and why. Do you?

simchaland says

Sorry, you conservos don’t get to define Liberalism. We Liberals get to define Liberalism for ourselves. You can try to confuse the general public with your rhetoric, propaganda, and other BS, but you can’t confuse we Liberals. We know what we stand for and why. Do you?

And therein lies the rub. Someone I've never met believes that he knows more than I do about my belief system. Sometimes I disagree with our President, sometimes I vehemently disagree with our President, and sometimes I agree with him. I have many facets to my being, and it bothers me that people make judgements about how I must feel on issues.

Only a simple minded person would label another and attempt to tell them what their views must be. It's sad that it's come to this, but indicative of what's happening in our country as a whole. I have a mind of my own and am confident that I can think for myself.

elliemae says

simchaland says
Sorry, you conservos don’t get to define Liberalism. We Liberals get to define Liberalism for ourselves. You can try to confuse the general public with your rhetoric, propaganda, and other BS, but you can’t confuse we Liberals. We know what we stand for and why. Do you?
And therein lies the rub. Someone I’ve never met believes that he knows more than I do about my belief system.

Who/what are you talking about? You are using a lot of pronouns whilst pouncing on Simcha's strawman.elliemae says

I have many facets to my being, and it bothers me that people make judgements about how I must feel on issues.

I am assuming you are waxing philosophically, since, you know, NO ONE MENTIONED YOU OR YOUR THOUGHTS. elliemae says

Only a simple minded person would label another and attempt to tell them what their views must be. It’s sad that it’s come to this, but indicative of what’s happening in our country as a whole. I have a mind of my own and am confident that I can think for myself.

I can only conclude that you are either arguing with yourself, with Simchaland, or are simply babling. Look, it's a nice speech, but it loses its effect when you are talking to yourself.

CBOEtrader says

I am assuming you are waxing philosophically, since, you know, NO ONE MENTIONED YOU OR YOUR THOUGHTS.

Why are you yelling at me?

CBOEtrader says

I can only conclude that you are... simply babling.

I must admit that I've been described as a babe - but it's been a few years since I've been young enough to be a "babling." I guess I don't show my age, and I'm flattered that you noticed.

Thank you.

elliemae says

Why are you yelling at me?

dunno. internet socializing turrets?

elliemae says

I must admit that I’ve been described as a babe - but it’s been a few years since I’ve been young enough to be a “babling.” I guess I don’t show my age, and I’m flattered that you noticed.

Ok, you got me to laugh on that one.

Thanks. Don't forget to try the veal. G'night everybody!