patrick.net

Nomograph says

The fact that you are forced to talk about indians and concentration camps

Actually I said that just to get a rise out of you. Your black and white way of thinking about winners and losers betrays your prejudice and lack of understanding. There is such a thing as a win win scenario but according to your dogma that just doesn't compute. In fact, society is built upon the win win scenario, the fact that our fabric of society periodically goes through strain and decay is because people like you think in black and white (winners and losers) rather than seeking the win win scenario.

A gold or silver standard is not a government sponsored wealth management program. The federal reserve IS a government sponsored wealth transfer program. That is the problem. A gold standard can be a win win scenario, the FED and its fiat regime is anything but. Do you really think that having a debt that is growing and can never be repaid is in everyone's best interest?

Nomograph says

Wintson?

Actually the name for people who are loyal party members like you is Winston.

Why are you afraid of sound money Winston? Actually I know you aren't but rather just like to be a pain in the ass. Are you a proctologist?

Winston says

play some video games

What games do you play? Are they approved by the ministry of truth Winston?

BTW I'm not upset, I'm having fun playing with your superiority complex. Your black and white thinking/blindspot is amusing.

Nomograph says

I am the Ministry of Truth, Winston. I control the schools, the health care system, and the financial system. I want to help you, so just sit back, relax, and let me do the thinking.

Wow you're like the wizard of Oz!

Nomograph says

Have a bowl of ice cream.

But I don't like ice cream. Can I have cake instead?

Nomograph says

and to each person I will issue a shiny gold ninth place trophy.

Ah shucks that sounds nice! Giving back some the money you stole through inflation and taxation. You are generous.

Nomograph says

Everyone’s a winner when Big Brother is in charge.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He is just a black and white thinker who has made it his goal in life to have someone else clean his toilet. Oh and if you clean toilets (even your own) you are a loser in his book of prejudice. He gives you a ninth place trophy like a star of david.

AdHominem says

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. He is just a black and white thinker who has made it his goal in life to have someone else clean his toilet. Oh and if you clean toilets (even your own) you are a loser in his book of prejudice. He gives you a ninth place trophy like a star of david.

Once again, I'm making a huge leap of an assumption here. But I'm guessing that Nomo didn't become a doctor so that someone else could clean his toilet. And, unless I'm missing something here, I doubt he has competitions amongst his 9 servants to see who cleans best so that he can give out ninth place trophies.

Also, I wasn't aware that they award a Star of David to the best toilet cleaners, although anyone is welcome to wear one and respect the meaning behind the symbol. What an offensive comment - but I've come to expect nothing less from you.

So - my kid was about 8 when we had a lovely conversation about why it was so important for him to know how to clean, and that he should practice by cleaning up his room. It wasn't filthy, just had crap spread everywhere with his "treasures" thrown about - and my point was that I shouldn't have to clean it for him (his point was that the room's appearance didn't bother him, so it was my problem - not his). I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there's no mom around to clean up after you? He said, "I'll get a wife."

I can't wait until he gets married and shall spring that tidbit of wisdom upon his lovely (I'm sure) yet unsuspecting bride. Either that, or he can pay me $$$ not to tell her. I'm gonna be rich!

elliemae says

I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there’s no mom around to clean up after you? He said, “I’ll get a wife.”

Shocking statement .... SHOCKING. Sounds very much like you are raising a very sexist kid with an attitude that is dangerous to women. Are you teaching this kid that a woman's role is to "scrub floors, cook meals and do laundry too?" Both of you should be sent to a Feminist Re-education camp at once. I find it amazing that a conservative like me has to point this out to you.

I pay people to clean my house. My wife doesn't work, but raising 3 kids is hard, and I'd rather spend $300 a month for someone to clean the place than to have a dirty home. There's really nothing wrong with paying someone else for their labor.

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there’s no mom around to clean up after you? He said, “I’ll get a wife.”

Shocking statement …. SHOCKING. Sounds very much like you are raising a very sexist kid with an attitude that is dangerous to women. Are you teaching this kid that a woman’s role is to “scrub floors, cook meals and do laundry too?” Both of you should be sent to a Feminist Re-education camp at once. I find it amazing that a conservative like me has to point this out to you.

Yea, rayray, I allowed him to get away with this and hired a housekeeper for him immediately. He's 25 now and I still pay for a housekeeper, female of course, until he can find a subservient twit of a woman with no goals. Trouble is that he continually dates women who are intelligent, vibrant self-thinkers who would never consider their only job to be cleaning up after him. Apparently he values the woman over the services that she would provide to him as a maid.

I thought we raised him better, and his father & I are very disappointed. Damn!

elliemae says

RayAmerica says

elliemae says

I asked him, what happens when you grow up and there’s no mom around to clean up after you? He said, “I’ll get a wife.”

Shocking statement …. SHOCKING. Sounds very much like you are raising a very sexist kid with an attitude that is dangerous to women. Are you teaching this kid that a woman’s role is to “scrub floors, cook meals and do laundry too?” Both of you should be sent to a Feminist Re-education camp at once. I find it amazing that a conservative like me has to point this out to you.

Yea, rayray, I allowed him to get away with this and hired a housekeeper for him immediately. He’s 25 now and I still pay for a housekeeper, female of course, until he can find a subservient twit of a woman with no goals. Trouble is that he continually dates women who are intelligent, vibrant self-thinkers who would never consider their only job to be cleaning up after him. Apparently he values the woman over the services that she would provide to him as a maid.
I thought we raised him better, and his father & I are very disappointed. Damn!

Wait, you only provide him with a maid? At 25 he should have concubines to satisfy all his needs. You're failing in your parental duties. Hire some concubines. What are you teaching him by letting him date such independent, intelligent, vibrant, and self-aware women? Sheesh!

simchaland says

Wait, you only provide him with a maid? At 25 he should have concubines to satisfy all his needs. You’re failing in your parental duties. Hire some concubines. What are you teaching him by letting him date such independent, intelligent, vibrant, and self-aware women? Sheesh!

In his defense, he requires her to wear a French maid's uniform with fishnet stockings and high spiked heals. In my defense, as a parent hoping to instill some values beyond shallow stereotypes, I hired a grandmother in her 50's with plenty of cellulite. His girlfriend(s) seldom feel threatened by her.
It's called a "happy medium."

So - exactly what is a "dollar"?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&rlz=1I7DMUS_en&defl=en&q=define:dollar&ei=kOe_S_HlGcL38AaQ8LXrCA&sa=X&oi=glossary_
definition&ct=title&ved=0CAYQkAE

"Dollar are a pop vocal duo from the UK, consisting of David Van Day and Thereza Bazar. The duo were successful in the late 1970s and 1980s.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dollar_(band)"

thanks for asking. :)

Nomograph says

Honest Abe says

So - exactly what is a “dollar”?

A dollar is a denomination of the currency we use to exchange goods and services. It’s sole purpose is to enable the exchange of goods and services.
You can buy gold with a keystroke in the free market. Free markets are volatile and have risks. Are you afraid of freedom, Abe?

I'll bet he yells at you & tells you how wrong you are, followed by accusing you of being a liberal elitist snob.

And the downside to defining a dollar as a specific amount of silver (or gold) would be ???

The Wizard of Oceana says

the perils of the free market.

I would love to hear how in your Orwellian false reality the Fed and its monopoly over money and interest rates is "the free market" Please do tell.

Also since you claim a gold standard would be a government run program as opposed to this Fed monopoly on "money", please explain how defining a dollar as a specific amount of gold or silver will cause an increase in the size and scope of government. Please do tell!

In fact how would requiring gold (or gold backed currency/account) for the payment of debts be any different than requiring Federal Reserve notes for the payment of debts? Please do tell!!!
Both the gold currency and Federal Reserve notes require that the government enforce a "standard." Under gold there would be ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE IN THE SIZE OR SCOPE OF GOVERNMENT (other than the fact that government could not have access to freely printed federal reserve notes and would be forced to limit spending to equal actual revenues rather than monetizing debt. This is a win win scenario, you know the kind of scenario the Wizard of Nomo's ideology rejects and therefore he doesn't understand).

Honest Abe says

And the downside to defining a dollar as a specific amount of silver (or gold) would be ???

The downside is that the corporations and government won't have access to unlimited supplies of "money."

In other words, the "downside" is we would actually have a free market in currency.

Nomograph says

So why not just buy gold?

Owning a private hoard of gold probably won't do you any good if/when the dollar collapses. I would prefer not to see the day it collapses and the civil unrest or worse that will likely come with it. That is why I am calling for reform now, before the crisis fully manifests.

You still have not explained how the FED and its monopoly over money and interest rates is a "free market."

AdHominem says

You still have not explained how the FED and its monopoly over money and interest rates is a “free market.”

Are you defining the market as "the printing of currency"?

Of course there isn't a free market in currency printing. If we did, then anyone could print money in their basement....

Speaking of golden (silence being it, and all), how's the sore throat Nomo?

Trade ya - got another pen to clean out, full of dung. It'll clog the sinuses and the smell will linger for a day or two. Am I selling it to ya? How's about - it'll give you a sore back, arms, legs & neck. Even my eyelashes hurt from yesterday's go-round.

You'll get a bunch of inquisitive critters who are interested in what you're doing, hang around and try to steal your gloves or anything else you put down. This includes cute little birdies that are there to pick out the oats that weren't consumed in the first place. That'll be followed by cats, who want to eat the cute little birds, and who will hiss & howl at each other as they jockey for the best position. They'll also want to eat the cute little mice who have made a home in the aforementioned dung.

That'll be watched by the dogs - who "own" the cats and therefore don't usually chase them... but don't like commotion. Goats and horses watch all this with interest, and help out as best they can. This encourages neighborhood kids to come around, none of whom want to help but bring bb guns to shoot the cute little birds and mice who are uncovered. I'm cool with their shooting mice (guns pointed downward) but not the birds. And I make them help a little anyway, but have to give them pop or they'll get whiny.

This encourages their parents to stop by and watch, hang out with a beer and give constructive criticism. I love that part. It'll become like government work - 1 actual worker, 2 whiny assistants with different agendas, multiple interferences from outside influences who believe they have some ownership in the event, and a few supervisors.

The Wizard of Nomo says

But wait. You’ve been trying to convince everyone that gold is the only substance known to man that holds it’s value.

Gold and silver will hold value over the long term (decades). But its value is meaningless in the event of an accidental or orchestrated currency collapse and the chaos or worse that follows. In the event of a total breakdown (which is likely during a Federal Reserve note currency collapse) money will be the least of your concerns. That is the situation I would prefer to avoid. I would hate to see your toilet cleaner come over and clean you out (hint they won't be after your "money"), after beating you with a pipe wrench.

The Wizard Nomo says

free markets?

You claimed that people calling for a metal backed currency are afraid of the free market. That was YOU! I am still waiting to hear how in your Orwellian false reality forcing Americans to deal in Federal Reserve notes and the Fed's monopoly over currency and interest rates in the US is a "free market." Sounds more like totalitarianism in the real world.

Nomo - You're now a wizard. Congrats. That oughtta make you feel a little better today.

Nomograph says

Are you saying that gold prices are . . . unstable?

No, actually I am saying fiat currencies are unstable.

AdHominem says

You claimed that people calling for a metal backed currency are afraid of the free market.

If I'm forced to use a shiny metal as my currency, how is that a free market?

A better question is why did Roosevelt confiscate privately held gold coins in 1933?

I never said requiring any currency is a free market, you'll just have to believe Roosevelt and the Fed that gold currency is a free market. The Fed knows:

Gold and silver are hard currency, which cannot be debased except by fraud.

Fiat currencies are by nature a fraud and unstable.

That is why the Fed hates gold and silver. Commodity money exposes the fraud of their fiat Federal Reserve notes. Gold and silver reveal the results of their activity as lender of last resort and chief counterfeiter.

Every fiat currency has and eventually will collapse when the PtB push the limits of credibility too far. Fortunately gold as money cannot fail. That is why it has been used for millennia and remains today. Why do central banks and governments want any gold anyway if it is not a true currency? Why would Roosevelt confiscate Americans gold and then devalue their dollar?

WIZARD of NOMO: I am still waiting to hear how in your Orwellian false reality forcing Americans to deal in Federal Reserve notes and the Fed’s monopoly over currency and interest rates in the US is a “free market.” Sounds more like totalitarianism in the real world.

AdHominem says

A better question is why did Roosevelt confiscate privately held gold coins in 1933?

No, I like my question better. How about you answer that one?

As soon as The Wizard answers mine.AdHominem says

The Wizard of Nomo says

But wait. You’ve been trying to convince everyone that gold is the only substance known to man that holds it’s value.

Gold and silver will hold value over the long term (decades). But its value is meaningless in the event of an accidental or orchestrated currency collapse and the chaos or worse that follows. In the event of a total breakdown (which is likely during a Federal Reserve note currency collapse) money will be the least of your concerns. That is the situation I would prefer to avoid. I would hate to see your toilet cleaner come over and clean you out (hint they won’t be after your “money”), after beating you with a pipe wrench.
The Wizard Nomo says

free markets?

You claimed that people calling for a metal backed currency are afraid of the free market. That was YOU! I am still waiting to hear how in your Orwellian false reality forcing Americans to deal in Federal Reserve notes and the Fed’s monopoly over currency and interest rates in the US is a “free market.” Sounds more like totalitarianism in the real world.

Fact: there has never been a time in all of recorded history when gold or silver has been considered worthless.

Fact: over 300 fiat currencies in history have failed and collapsed.

Precious metals have intrinsic value that, throughout history, has been recognized the world over. Fiat paper money has value only in the minds of those that are willing to accept its promissory "value."

RayAmerica says

Fact: there has never been a time in all of recorded history when gold or silver has been considered worthless

That's not true. The dinosaurs did not value gold at all.

When De Gaulle showed up at the gold window to demand payment for his U.S. dollars in 1971, Nixon responded by closing the gold window. Why? Because he feared a run in the exchange of dollars to gold from the world market, exposing the fact that the U.S. currency was only partially supported by gold. Our currency back then was similar to how fractional reserve banking operates today. Only a very small fraction of gold existed to back the dollar. Now we have zero support, only a promise and the printing press that is ready to run 24/7 to "pay" off the huge debt obligations with currency that continues to lose value. How long do you think the financiers of the world will go along with this fraud? The day of reckoning is coming for the U.S. dollar and it is going to be unimaginably ugly.

tatupu70 says

That’s not true. The dinosaurs did not value gold at all.

You really should take this show on the road and get paid for it.

RayAmerica says

Fact: there has never been a time in all of recorded history when gold or silver has been considered worthless.

Ignoring dinosaurs for now, my problem with gold is that it does actually swing wildly in buying power. I was just looking at the graph of the buying power of gold in Ron Paul's book "End The Fed" and it looks like gold varies by a factor of ten in what it can buy. I think that's mostly because gold gets bid up too high during times of uncertainty.

So while gold does not fall to zero, you can still lose your shirt if you're fully invested in gold, and it's near the high end of its historical range.

RayAmerica says

How long do you think the financiers of the world will go along with this fraud?

If the financiers of the world are in on the scheme and benefitting from it, why would they ever want it to end?

RayAmerica says

You really should take this show on the road and get paid for it.

Sorry--bad jokes aside, my question has always been what is the so called intrinsic value of gold? Why do you think gold has some innate value?? Historically, people have valued it because it's pretty and makes good jewelry and adornments. Is that how we want to decide what to use as a currency?

Vicente says

If the financiers of the world are in on the scheme and benefitting from it, why would they ever want it to end?

The financiers I'm referring to are those that expect the U.S. dollar to maintain its value due to fiscal responsibility by the federal government. We are spending at an incredible pace and the big money players of the world know it. We have only four basic options available to pay down our debt: 1) dramatically cut government spending and balance the budget, 2) dramatically raise taxes, 3) continue to borrow enormous sums from foreign sources (currently $3 + Billion per day), 4) monetize our debt via the printing press. I would argue that #1 & #2 will not happen due to the political suicide it would require by our self serving politicians. #3 is more palpable politically because most voters cannot comprehend that their government is basically broke and forced to borrow in order to function. #4 is the most likely scenario because it is the most acceptable to voters that do not have the capacity to understand inflationary economics, i.e. debasing of the currency. When Nixon closed the gold window in 1971, the government literally held its breath, not knowing how the world would react. We have abused our currency since that time and, although we are currently experiencing deflation in some sectors and inflation in others (along with high unemployment, i.e. stagflation), the day is absolutely coming when the excessive amounts of fiat money will finally push inflation into at least the double digits. When the big money players begin to unload their U.S. dollars, we will be forced to raise interest rates in order to attract investments in the dollar. With the economy already weakened while enjoying historically low interest rates, what do you think will happen when interest rates are forced higher?

tatupu70 says

Sorry–bad jokes aside, my question has always been what is the so called intrinsic value of gold? Why do you think gold has some innate value??

Gold has a history of value, whereas fiat currency has a history of eventual failure. Gold is relatively scarce due to the difficulties related to mining, making it limited in its supply. Throughout history, including antiquity, gold has always been in demand and low in supply. Whereas, the supply of fiat money can easily be expanded via the printing press. For example: printing a million dollar note takes the same effort as does printing a single dollar bill. Politicians know this, and love the flexibility this gives them in literally "buying" votes with their fiat currency purchased social programs. The voters are temporarily fooled by inflation in the early stages because they are deceived into thinking that they themselves are becoming wealthier because their assets appear to be "increasing" in value. What is actually happening is inflationary forces are diminishing the value of the dollar while seemingly increasing the value of assets related to it. The real estate bubble is a perfect example of an excessive amount of money chasing too few properties, driving the prices abnormally high. Gold, because it is limited in supply, cannot be utilized in this manner, precisely why the politicians hate it.

Prior to becoming the “Maestro” of the Fed, Greenspan understood these principles and wrote about them. Here’s an example of what he believed before he became the most reckless Fed chairman in history:

“Deficit spending is simply a scheme for the ‘hidden’ confiscation of wealth. Gold stands in the way of this insidious process. It stands as a protector of property rights.”

Pretty amazing quote by the man that expanded the fiat money supply more than any Fed chairman in history!

RayAmerica says

Gold has a history of value, whereas fiat currency has a history of eventual failure. Gold is relatively scarce due to the difficulties related to mining, making it limited in its supply. Throughout history, including antiquity, gold has always been in demand and low in supply.

So--if I understand your answer correctly--you like gold because throughout history people have liked to make jewelry out of it. That makes it a good currency? Oh, and it's relatively scarce too. What if people's tastes changed and we no longer wanted to make jewelry out of gold? Would gold still have value then? After all, there are lots of scarce materials that don't have great value.

Why not diamonds? It at least is far more portable than gold.

AdHominem says

Gold and silver are hard currency, which cannot be debased except by fraud.

Simply not true. You just pull the coins out of circulation and remint them. Ever since coinage was invented governments have been debasing their hard currencies. You need to read more history. Here is a brief article on the subject.
http://www.campaignforliberty.com/blog.php?view=6085
For anyone with a more scholarly bent here is a pretty well researched article on debasements http://www.google.co.nz/#hl=en&q=history+of+currency+debasements&meta=&aq=f&aqi=g2&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=bb66be834872d4aa

So your continued reference to "sound currency" doesn't make much sense. Very few hard currencies survived all that long either. Coins were constantly be reminted. Financial collapses happened regularly under gold/silver standards. The great depression happened when most of the world was on the gold standard including the US.

I'm not per se defending fiat currency, but pointing out the the gold standard is far from a panacea.

bob2356 says

oins were constantly be reminted.

That is so true. This is why a dollar must be defined as a specific amount and purity of metal. You may remember me saying that earlier?