patrick.net

Abe--

Nice try. But that is the almost the exact opposite of the truth...

Nope. I've seen people write that a lot, there is not much evidence for it. We're about at 1929 levels of wealth distribution. It's hard to blame "paper money, created out of thin air" back then, being on the gold standard and all.

US dollar Monetary Base:

1920-01-01 6.043
1925-01-01 5.999
1929-01-01 6.068

And then after the gold standard was abandoned wealth distribution began to diminish, and the middle class grew.

When the purchasing power of paper money is decreasing, everyone's standard of living is declining. Capitalism and free enterprise have historically always benefitted the lower and middle income earners (America - the land of opportunity) but only when paper money issuance is curtailed. Most wealthy people become wealthy through ingenuity and supplying something of value to society. But because of this paper money dislocation, the average wage earner has not kept up.

The rich do get richer and the poor get poorer in a society that use's fiat money as opposed to a monetary unit that is tied to a standard measurement for its monetary value. A standard measurement of length ( 12 inches to the foot ) ensures everyone a measurement that cannot be altered and used to swindle or decieve people in transactions as time goes on. A fiat money system negates a standard of monetary value or worth. Any new money injected into the economy upsets and distorts the monetary standards that existed before the new issuance of money.

Clearly paper money and excessive government spending are the culprits in the destruction of the lower and middle wage earners standard of living and the resulting unequal distribution of wealth.

And the tooth fairy is trying to sell her castle made out of the teeth of all good boys and girls around the world. I hear that this stunning beauty is located in the beautiful "fortress" so I'm sure that investing in her castle will make you rich quick because real estate prices never go down in "the fortress."

Honest Abe says

Clearly paper money and excessive government spending are the culprits in the destruction of the lower and middle wage earners standard of living and the resulting unequal distribution of wealth.

No matter how many times you write it, it's still incorrect. Just look at this thread--there is a graph showing wealth inequality vs. time.

http://patrick.net/?p=378044

It's clear that a progressive tax structure is needed to prevent wealth inequality. As Mark noted, wealth inequality was very high in 1929, went down significantly until Reagan took office. And it's been rising ever since.

Why is it that everything has a uniform standard of measure EXCEPT paper money??? Please explain that.

tatupu70 says

It’s clear that a progressive tax structure is needed to prevent wealth inequality. As Mark noted, wealth inequality was very high in 1929, went down significantly until Reagan took office. And it’s been rising ever since.

Right. What we need desperately is to create a European style of socialism. Destroy the incentives of the people and you’ll get what most of Europe has become; a giant welfare state. PM Margaret Thatcher put it this way: "Socialism works very well until you run out of other people's money." That is precisely what is happening now in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Great Britain, etc. This virus will continue to spread to the rest of the continent and will have (just as it did in 1929) a direct effect on our own economy.

IMO, I think we are moving closer to Fascism. Benito Mussolini once said: "The first major step towards a Fascist state is the marriage between corporations and government." With all the money being literally given to the mega corporations, banks, Fannie & Freddie, etc. along with the added control by the government that money has bought, would you agree that we are moving in that direction?

RayAmerica says

Right. What we need desperately is to create a European style of socialism. Destroy the incentives of the people and you’ll get what most of Europe has become; a giant welfare state. PM Margaret Thatcher put it this way: “Socialism works very well until you run out of other people’s money.” That is precisely what is happening now in Greece, Spain, Portugal, Great Britain, etc. This virus will continue to spread to the rest of the continent and will have (just as it did in 1929) a direct effect on our own economy.

Who said anything about socialism? Is that your go to whenever someone says something you don't agree with? Just throw Socialism out there and hope it sticks?

I would like free market capitalism with a strongly progressive tax structure. That will prevent the major inequality of wealth that we are currently experiencing and will allow the economy to thrive.

It's so nice to be mentioned in almost every one of ellie "I never, ever insult anyone" mae's posts.

Thank you for the attention and for playing. You so fun.

RayAmerica says

It’s so nice to be mentioned in almost every one of ellie “I never, ever insult anyone” mae’s posts.

That's because you're the source of ridicule here. The posts were responding to you. You're welcome, by the way. But you're not playing the same game that we are, which is why you are losing.

This is fun.

With about 80% of Americans upset with politicians and the direction they are taking our country, its pretty clear who the "lunatic fringe" really is.

BTW, why is it that everything has a uniform standard of measure...except paper money? Anyone???

So the rich never got richer and the poor never got poorer before the invention of paper money. A simply amazing piece of history that I never knew before.

Abe .... Precisely why they want paper money so they can print as much (no standard) as they want to benefit from their hidden tax; inflation. Everyone's happy with that. The politicians, the private banksters of the Fed, etc.

Thanks Ray, you and I know that politicians perfer paper money to maintain deficit spending and to continue the fraud and deception that paper money provides.

Check this out: US Money Supply 1970 - $626 Billion, by 2008 it was up to $8.2 Trillion, a 1,216% increase. US Federal Spending 1970 - $870 Billion, by 2008 it was up to $2.8 Trillion, a 221% increase. Media income US Households 1970 - $38,851 and by 2008 it was up to $51,335, a 32% increase. Government spending and increased mone supplies have not been an effective solution to household betterment. It has done the exact opposite.

And no one from the lunatic fringe has enough intellectual courage to answer my lingering question - Why does everything have a uniform standard of measure - except paper money?

No, I'm not kidding. And you didn't answer the question. You asked a question instead of answering my persistent question. Your question started with "Why does... and ended with a question mark. That is a question, isn't it?

What makes this question so hard? Why does EVERYTHING have a uniform standard of measure... EXCEPT paper money ?

Thank you for your answer. However, it leads me to other questions. (1) Why on earth would a simple question about our nations paper currency be "a bit childish"? (2) Why should our currency have an arbitrary value? (3) Who benefits from having an arbitrary currency?

Thanks, Abe

Honest Abe says

Capitalism and free enterprise have historically always benefitted the lower and middle income earners (America - the land of opportunity) but only when paper money issuance is curtailed.

During the heyday of capitalism (~end of civil war up to the new deal / WWII), wealth was dramatically skewed towards high earners. America looked a lot like China and India do today, with virtually no middle class in between the sea of poverty and the tiny island of the wealthy.

Why are you making shit up? It is completely provable using any metric that more people have benefited (and by greater amounts) during the period after these things changed.

Honest Abe says

(2) Why should our currency have an arbitrary value?

Why shouldn't it? Most values are arbitrary. Do you know how long a meter is? How much mass is in a kilogram? All human inventions, all arbitrary values.

(3) Who benefits from having an arbitrary currency?

Clearly, just about everyone, primarily because it democratized access to credit.

You can certainly make the argument that indebtedness is a major problem today (it is), but you can't ignore the realities of the past either. Historically, people simply didn't have money, and most lived hand to mouth. It's not like in the 1800s everyone had tons of assets and were robust savers. I'd also argue that the economic problems of the late 1800s, early 1900s, and even the 1970s were all MUCH worse than anything that we are dealing with today.

As far as I can tell, most of the economic problems that the world has today are the result of too large of entitlement programs that were poorly designed to handle aging populations. If we had a "non arbitrary" (and please do explain how random amounts of gold or silver aren't arbitrary) currency, those problems wouldn't go away. The entitlement programs can be put back to a rational level (retiring at 55, or even 65 seems ridiculous with average life expectancy at or above 80 in most parts of the world for instance), though some people might not like it. Once you have the entitlement programs under control getting rid of the debt is a simple matter of a combination of currency devaluation and tax policy. In many cases fixing the long term structural problems of the entitlements alone may be adequate to avoid the need for devaluation or increased taxes entirely.

Wrong, wrong and wrong again. The purpose of having a defined standard of anything is, oh - I don't know...insignificant things such as trust, safety, honesty - things liberals can't stand.
Would anyone accept being charged for a "ten pound ham" only to find out it the true weight was 6.75 pounds ?? (No honesty). Or how would you feel if you were charged for 20 gallons of gas but only recieved 16 gallons? (No trust). Who the hell would put up with that ?????

There has to be a uniform standard of weights and measures or there is chaos, dishonesty and unsafe conditions - to name a few consequences. Imagine if there were no standards for the tolerances of aircraft engine parts - would YOU get on a plane with no defined engine standards??? (No safety). Well, would you?

All of your elaborate arguments do not stand the test of COMMON SENSE. Why is a "foot" 12 inches, all around the world, in non-metric countries? Why is a pound always16 ounces? What is the definition of an ounce? Without an exact definition there is nothing but chaos and confusion. And gold does not change in value- a one ounce gold coin could buy a good "suit of clothes" in ancient Rome. A one ounce gold coin today can buy a good "suit of clothes". This is a concept you paperbugs can't, or refuse to understand. Histroy is littered with examples where "paper money always returns to its intrinsic value - nothing". Histroy has also proven that gold has retained its value and desirablity for plus or minus 5,000 years.

As far as income gains, according to the US Labor Dept, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities- during the decade of the 1960's (1960-1969) the bottom 90% of the income earners in America enjoyed 65% of the US National Income Gains and the top 1% recieved 11% of the income gains. Conversly from 2002 to 2007, the bottom 90% of the income earners got just 10% of the US National Income Gains and the top 1% got about 65% of the income gains.

It is big wasteful government and undefined paper money that is dictating the horrible loss of income gains in the middle and lower class earners. This inequity was caused by an almost 1,000% increase in the money supply from 1960 to 2007 and a federal budget that went from $92 billion to $2.8 trillion. These increases are destructive. They have allowed an elite group of sleezy politicians, bankers and social engineers to create a dishonest and corrupt system over the past 50 years, a system with a dishonest, fraudulant currency of undefined paper money and a big government as the cornerstones of our social policy.

The bottom line is that sleezy politicians steal money from everyone by inflating paper currency - its happening to you, and you don't even know it.

You are right and I retract the statement "trust, honesty and safety - things liberals can't stand". However, I stand by everything else in my post above.

Abe

Honest Abe says

All of your elaborate arguments do not stand the test of COMMON SENSE. Why is a “foot” 12 inches, all around the world, in non-metric countries? Why is a pound always16 ounces? What is the definition of an ounce? Without an exact definition there is nothing but chaos and confusion.

But according to your logic, there is a definition. A dollar is 10 dimes, or 20 nickels, or even 100 pennies.

Honest Abe says

Why is a “foot” 12 inches, all around the world, in non-metric countries?

For your general fund of information the only non metric countries that exist outside of the United States are Burma and Liberia. Both of which use the metric system anyway, just it's not the official system of measurement. Oddly enough the metric system has been in US law since the Kasson Act of 1866. It's just been a little slow to catch on here.

Honest Abe says

a whole load of bullshit

Seriously Abe, what are you talking about? Your argument was that currency can't be "arbitrary", and then you use a COMPLETELY arbitrarily defined metric (pounds) to argue against it?

Perhaps you simply don't understand what the term "arbitrary" means.

It sounds like your real issue is that currency isn't defined in *fixed* terms, the way that units of weights and measures are, rather than it being "arbitrary".

Of course, you ignore that the whole reason that currency isn't fixed is because economies aren't fixed. One of our biggest problems with China today is that the value of their currency *is* fixed, and it does not reflect the actual state of their economy.

If gold and silver were the basis for our money, countries with lots of gold and silver (a completely random accident of history) would be the most wealthy, rather than countries that have the smartest scientists and most productive factories.

Ten worthless dimes with the value (silver) removed from them make a dollar. Haha. One hundred pennies make a dollar. The metal in a penny is now far more "valuable" than the penny itself. Its now illegal to: (1) melt down a penny and (2) take more than $5.00 out of the country. Why do you defend these inconsistencies, fraud and deception? The real reason we have worthless paper money is so the politicians can inflate it to spend more than they take in. No one, however can "inflate" or create gold or silver out of thin air.

Paper money masks the inefficiencies of government waste and it's endless interference in the economy. Nieve people as well as lower and middle income earners watch prices going up and wages not keeping pace, and buy into the socialist arguments and political propaganda that more regulation, more taxes and more laws are whats needed to make things right.

By eliminating all the dislocations and waste from government intervention, and economic chaos caused by paper money, everyone would do better, private businesses and taxpayers. We will never have a stable economy until we have a stable and honest monetary system.

For many decades government interference and intervention has been relentlessy crushing and destroying the only source of wealth in this country - private businesses and the people they employ.

Which question are you referring to (that I don't understand)? Was it: "Someone is defending the laws against melting pennies and taking $5.00 out of the country"? Or your second question: "Who is it"? Because you only asked two questions.

"The most comprehensive study of the facts undertaken in recent times is that by the National Economic Committee on: The Concentration of Economic Power. The final report of the committee arrives at the conclusion there is little evidence that greater efficiency of large scale production is the cause of the disappearance of competition (and the concentration of wealth). It should be noted, moreover, that monopoly and the concentration of wealth is attained through collusive agreement and PROMOTED BY PUBLIC POLICIES". [The Road to Serfdom, F.A. Hayek - emphasis added by Honest Abe].

As usual, government is the root of Americas economic problems, not the solution.

simchaland says

This current mess has its roots in the 8 years of Bush and the 12 years of Reagan/Bush before that.

no, Clinton did f-all about our oil dependency and rising trade deficit with China.

Didn't help that he had a hostile Congress (to the extent of impeaching his ass for political points).

ca. 1995 China started to get plugged into the game and the international money machine started spinning dollars:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M3

Also didn't help that non-OPEC oil started ramping in 1993:

keeping oil prices down in the $20 range for the decade and preventing investment in alternatives.

This graph:

http://calculatedriskimages.blogspot.com/2010/05/percent-job-losses-during-recessions.html

shows that the 1990 and 2001 recessions were different than previous recessions -- our service economy is bigger and doesn't turn around as quickly.

AFAICT, the 2001 recession only really ended by our idiotic attempt to borrow our way to prosperity, which is why the present recession is so deep and wide.

21st century America really sucks at big-C Capitalism. Socialism too, for that matter.

Politicians invariably respond to crises, that in most cases they have created themselves by spawning new and burdensome government programs, and countless new laws, rules and regulations. These in turn generate more havoc and chaos, which inspire politicians to create even more "programs". The downward spiral repeats itself until the productive sectors of the economy collapse under the collective weight of taxes, regulations and other burdens imposed in the name of "fairness", or businesses simply move offshore. This stupidity continues until the free market screams "STOP" which is the beginning of another self-correcting recession.

The very people who regulate, control and manipulate businesses themselves are not business people. Which is precisely why central planning by government dimwits get it wrong all the time. Besides they have no skin in the game, so when things go wrong they don't care. They simply screw the taxpayer and move on to their next scheme.

What do you think is going to happen when a half a century of creeping socialism catches up to the US of A? Start with America not being AAA rated anymore. Then the dollar free-falling under the weight of mega-massive debt. Then Uncle Sam nationalizes every one's retirement account because they need your money more than you do. Then interest rates rise into double digits as a last ditch effort to restore faith, which could lead to civil unrest and widespread misery.

Big government and central planning, trying to micro-manage every aspect of peoples personal lives and business ventures can never be a "solution". Last time I checked, Utopia still doesn't exist, but I suppose it can - in your mind.

What does money represent? To me it represents labor that I have done that I can now trade for something else that I really want. Say I make shoes, I have enough shoes... I want a boat. I sell my shoes then go buy the boat. What happens if while I was saving money to buy the boat the government went out and "printed" up a bunch of money and was buying a bunch of boats. Sure the boat maker is happy (first one to get the government money) but I'm screwed. Supply and demand dictates that as demand goes up and supply goes down prices will move up to balance things out. Now, if the government were constrained to how much gold it had it wouldn't be able to unfairly pay for those boats. It would need to either A) mine more gold which means labor or B) tax it's citizens. Which one would the government do first? Obviously it's not going to do any actual work/labor so it's going to tax. But wait, taxing is not very politically popular so it prints fiat money instead.... problem solved, for them. Mean while I'm still getting screwed saving for my boat because every dollar in my pocket is losing purchasing power. That's how fiat money is not and can not be backed by "goods and services."

It's actually within the power of each one of us to create money. Just write a check. When the check has been accepted by someone, it's money. They took it as payment. Then they cashed it, and the check was cancelled. Money destroyed, at least from your own point of view.

So for a moment, you created money by promising money. The money is the promise.

jkingeek, you're missing the supply side of the equation, how efficiently various economies produce the wealth that money buys.

Plus banks create more money that the government anyway so this fiat money argument is just bullsh--. Over the past 12 months the Fed has printed under $200B of money and given it to the government to spend, while printing another trillion and taking mortgage backed securities off the private sector's hands, to support lower mortgage rates and keep some liquidity in the system so home borrowers can have their loans funded.

Now, if the government were constrained to how much gold it had it wouldn’t be able to unfairly pay for those boats.

The government is not buying boats with the money it spends, it is pushing over six trillion dollars a year of transfer payments, wages, and purchase orders into the private economy.

Your understanding of how the economy works, and the government's place within it, is severely lacking. Being on a gold standard doesn't fix anything, banking is the bigger problem.

@Troy, Explain it to me then. Why won't the government/fed allow market forces to work both ways? Everyone seems so content with inflation but so uncomfortable with deflation. Yes economies can become efficient at production which should lead to deflation (supply/demand). Why is the government having to step in and buy mortgage backed securities in the first place? Who put all the money out there that created the bubble? Banks? Yes. Who gave the banks the cheap money? The FED. Who is the FED? Essentially the government, and to deny that is to expose your severe lacking of the economy.

jkingeek says

Who gave the banks the cheap money? The FED.

Banks do not normally receive money from the Fed. Their loans are funded from the money their depositors give them.

The Fed just mandates how many times the same dollar can be lent out before it is required to be held in cash reserve. Currently this multiple is 10X or thereabouts. The Fed also controls lending by setting certain interest rates that drive what rate banks will lend out to customers, which is a basic throttle/brake mechanism the Fed uses to control the system's lending.

Of the $10T or so in the global money supply:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/M2

the Fed has funneled only $800B of money creation through the Treasury. Here is a chart of this activity in the past decade:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/TREAST

(the dip is the Fed exchanging treasury debt with allegedly AAA rated securities the banks needed to offload)

Why won’t the government/fed allow market forces to work both ways?

Deflation sucks on the macro level. If prices are going down, it removes any incentive to consume if you can wait for lower prices later. But consumers are also producers, and if producers can't sell their stuff, they eventually stop becoming consumers.

This is known as a deflationary spiral.

Why is the government having to step in and buy mortgage backed securities in the first place?

Lower interest rates support higher home prices, and the banking system needs higher home prices since it lent out around FIVE TRILLION DOLLARS based on these (now-nonexistant) valuations.

Also, since we are basically in a deflationary spiral still the money creation was not inflationary.

Inflation works both ways: too much money creation and not enough production, or NO money creation and declining production.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/TCU

So in essence, the Fed, by dictating how much banks must hold on reserve they (the Fed) are not creating money, they're letting the banks create money to an extent (10X what they actually have)? I don't see the difference.

jkingeek says

So in essence, the Fed, by dictating how much banks must hold on reserve they (the Fed) are not creating money, they’re letting the banks create money to an extent (10X what they actually have)?

No, actually, banks can only lend out 90% of what deposits they have, but the end result is bank loans becoming bank deposits, and the 90% lend-out results in a 10X money multiplier.

I don’t see the difference.

That's because you're soaking in it (the difference).

Part of the innovation of the go-go 1920s was the rise of consumer credit. Buy now pay later. But, alas, consumer credit isn't that big a deal compared to the real money-creators, which is commercial and private real estate lending.

Here's some more charts:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/REVOLNS?cid=101

vs:

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/TOTBKCR?cid=101

vs.

http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/series/REALLN?cid=100

Land ownership is THE central economic sector, everything revolves around it. Land boom/bust cycles have been going on for hundreds of years -- Daniel Boone busted himself out in land speculation, as did the richest man in 18th century America -- Robert Morris, and these two American heroes didn't need the Fed to get themselves into trouble.

We can both agree that the present financial system is largely a scam, a big money pump to support skimming off of the actual productive members of society. The Federal Reserve was an attempt by The System to impose some extra/quasi-governmental technocratic regulation on the credit and monetary system, to get the benefits of a fiat-based money supply without the attendant political risk of printing our way to prosperity.

The system utterly, abjectly, and disastrously failed in the 2003-2006 timeframe. My personal suspicion is that the Powers That Be were willing to throw any switch and pull any lever to avoid a repeat of a one-term Bush presidency (and once they were on the tiger in 2003-2004 they dared not get off). Justices Roberts and Alito are sitting in some very expensive chairs.

Well said. Yes the financial system is largely a scam. btw I know the government isn't buying boats and I don't make shoes either. :)

Actually the government DOES buy boats... and planes, and trucks and cars, etc, etc, etc. Government also competes with private businesses for office space, land, construction...virtually everything - and it drives up the cost of everything while doing so (supply vs. demand).

In addition to consuming, oh - I don't know - 40%, maybe 45% of the countries GDP, the government produces nothing and contibutes NOTHING to our economy.

Do we need government? Yes. Do we need big, massive, bloated, corrupt government attempting to solve everyone's problems, micro-manage everyones personal behavior, and over-regulate every aspect of private industry? NO - NO - NO. Thats the road to socialism and ultimately to the destruction of our nation.

Honest Abe says

Do we need big, massive, bloated, corrupt government attempting to solve everyone’s proble

Maybe the big bloated government is beginning to learn they can't solve all the problems out there. Example: they've turned to Hollyweird to "plug the hole." That seems like a step in the right direction. LOL

Abe Babe and Rayray, please stop using our roads, schools, police, firemen/women, paramedics, airports, trains, buses, and US Dollars. Since you both want to continue to live in denial and subscribe to the weird fantasy that government doesn't produce or contribute anything to our economy you should both avoid these things because they may snap you out of your bizarre fantasyland quickly if you were to use them.

And I'm sure you must both be against "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," for the right of anyone to marry whomever they wish regardless of gender or sex, against repealing Roe v. Wade, and against forcing schools to teach "Intelligent Design" (a.k.a. Christian Biblical Creationism) since you both believe that goverment should stay away from telling us what to do in our personal lives. I'll expect to see you both to be at Gay Pride at the end of the month.

The key to a healthy economy is when people who are consuming something are also producing something of value back into the economy. This is why socialism and welfare states destroy economies. Too may people eating the corn and too few people planting it - results in a lot of hunger for everyone.

Massive government mismanagement has finally awakened the guy on the street (the new angry American) to see that he has been lied to, deceived and taken in by the absurd promises of sleazy, pandering politicians.

The sad thing about socialism is that if there honest money systems, low taxes, and very limited "safety-net" programs, most of the population would be far better off and not need the shackles and bondage of so called "government help".

Honest Abe says

This is why socialism and welfare states destroy economies. Too may people eating the corn and too few people planting it - results in a lot of hunger for everyone.

And I always figured Socialism didn't work because there was no incentive to increase productivity... Turns out they just don't plant enough corn. Who knew.