patrick.net

tatupu70 says

Para–
OK– Here’s my take. The final days of the Bush presidency did see him change somewhat. It appears that Dick Cheney’s influence had waned and other advisors had gained more traction. So, I’ll agree that he probably did come up with a plan at the end of his 2nd term.
I won’t, however, give him much credit for it. He basically had to be led kicking and screaming to that decision…
I think it’s fair to say that the Bush administration failed in the Iraq war planning. And I also think it’s fair to say that the vast majority of the credit for the withdrawl goes to the current administration. If you want to give some small sliver to Bush, so be it.

I'm more interested in acknowledging facts and disputing blatant factual errors/ stereotypical propaganda than distributing credit for creation of the plan in the first place. Yes, it is fair to say that properly executing the plan (which would of course imply corrections if necessary) should go to Obama. Yes, it is fair to say that the Bush Admin developing a workable plan that Obama is largely following does not excuse earlier poor planning for the war or the war itself.

We may have some difference of opinion on some of the psychological analysis/opinion that you provide up front, but we largely agree your latter points. I take it at this point that we also agree that any claim that Bush had "no plan" and that Obama developed the plan to withdraw troops from Iraq is simply false?

marcus says

Let’s face it, you guys are sore losers and you exhibit terrible sportsmanship.

I was a big critic of Bush from early in his 2nd. term on and remain so. IMO, he was a fraudulent "conservative" that duped a lot of people (including me). Having said that, your above statement is comical. The left constantly attacked him as "Monkey Boy," the "Chimp," referred to him as "stupid," "deer in the headlights," etc. What was that? Good "sportsmanship?"

Troy says

No, this is the type of mentality that created the Scientific Revolution, the Enlightenment,

The "Enlightenment?" LOL ! Are you referring to the French Revolution? Everyone that refused to wear the Red Bonnet ended up getting their head lopped off. The "moral leader" and the "Voice of Virtue" Robespierre` railed against all "religion" i.e. Christianity. What few people refuse to recognize is that this wonderful leader of the French Revolution ultimately declared himself to be THE "Superior Being" which effectually began, in his mind, a new "religion." Robespierre` viewed himself to be a "god." Too bad his followers didn't bow at the altar he created for himself. He too lost his head to the glorious revolution. You can remove all Christian law and morality from society. The French proved this is possible as did the Bolsheviks, the Nazis, Maoists, etc. Don't be surprised when utter chaos and mass murder follows for all those that refuse to conform and bow to the beast that the state has created.

RayAmerica says

You can remove all Christian law and morality from society.

Seems to me that especially with religion, "morality" is determined arbitrarily. Nazis thought they were moral, and they killed homosexuals, along with jews and other groups, or sent them to concentration camps. Certainly we have done things that are morally questionable. DO we even talk about how many Iraqus died in this war, or "desert storm" before it ? Do we often consider the genocide of native americans ? Why didn't we let them stay, tolerate them, eventually mix with them, would that have been less moral ?

I'm not advocating Naziism or Maoism, and in fact I truly love America, but I don't have a blind eye to atrocities we have committed, even if we considered them justified.

So okay Ray, you think that giving in to Gay marriage is going to destroy our moral fabric ? Give me a break, the integrity of our moral fabric goes hand in hand with our staying as secular as possible. People like Mao and Hitler were like religious zealots they just took the "holier than thou" mentality to a higher level. And that is the mentality that always leads to the worst kinds of immorality.

RayAmerica says

he left constantly attacked him as “Monkey Boy,” the “Chimp,” referred to him as “stupid,” “deer in the headlights,”

Those were just observations, that anyone could see. A much older conservative friend of mine, was always bothered by the way he carried himself, you know the arms slightly bent like he was ready to "draw." G.W. was a guy who was not comfortable up on the stage, and it was painful to watch. He seemed to even intentionally play up the "they misunderestimated me" kind of things he would say. It worked for him somehow. Some people like feeling "hey this guy is a regular joe, I'd like to hang out with him, or go fishing with him."

In my view, Clinton and Obama both seem more like guys that would be easy and fun to hang out with for me, in spite of the fact that I don't see myself nearly their intellectual equal.

marcus says

Seems to me that especially with religion, “morality” is determined arbitrarily. Nazis thought they were moral,

marcus says

People like Mao and Hitler were like religious zealots they just took the “holier than thou” mentality to a higher level.

Can you clarify? You argue that religion determines morality arbitrarily but then use examples of extreme secular/anti-religious regimes as examples of immorality. And then it seems that you are arguing that there is no difference between an anti-religious and a religious tyrant because the anti-religious one is like a "religious zealot... to a higher level."

marcus says

And that is the mentality that always leads to the worst kinds of immorality.

We must remain as secular as possible, or secular tyrants will lead us to the worst type of immorality? Immorality based on what standard?

marcus says

Those were just observations, that anyone could see.

Translation: Right-wing attacks against Democratic Presidents are hateful and are false. Left-wing attacks against Republican Presidents are not hateful because they are just observations and are true.

More evidence that "Last US combat brigade exits Iraq" .... repeat after me: War is Peace, Ignorance is Freedom ....

http://www.bangordailynews.com/story/Statewide/Troops-still-deploying-to-Mideast-from-BIA,152133

Paralithodes says

Translation: Right-wing attacks against Democratic Presidents are hateful and are false. Left-wing attacks against Republican Presidents are not hateful because they are just observations and are true.

No.

I meant that they were surface physical observations, that I heard from conservatives too. We're talking superficial stuff here. If you say that Obama has big ears, or draw cartoon with him that way, that's what I would call simply an observation.

If you have a poster of him, with a hitler mustache, that's getting more weird and hateful.

By the way, there was more hateful lampooning kind of stuff Bush (such as the poster of him with a halo) but it was not nearly as mainstream. For example there was a false whitehouse website that was pretty nasty ( and very funny) towards Bush.

Paralithodes says

Translation: Right-wing attacks against Democratic Presidents are hateful and are false. Left-wing attacks against Republican Presidents are not hateful because they are just observations and are true.

Well, you have to admit that Bush looks like a monkey though. Right?

Paralithodes says

Can you clarify? You argue that religion determines morality arbitrarily but then use examples of extreme secular/anti-religious regimes as examples of immorality.

I guess it's still controversial whether Hitler was religious or not. I was thinking more about the genesis of immoral actions, rather than the secular government that tolerated implementation of the decisions. Likewise here, we were a secular government that was willing to kill native Americans, but the people who made the decisions would go to church on Sunday and pray, and then be able to feel good about themselves.

My point was maybe not so clear, but I believe that it is a sort of spiritual craziness (as I said taking "holier than thou" to a whole other level), that enables a Hitler or a Mao to do the things they did. They believed it was for a "higher good" which is a little different, than following religious law. But then we are allowed to break our moral code, when it fits our purposes. We are all sinners after all. Repent, be saved.

marcus says

I guess it’s still controversial whether Hitler was religious or not.

The only “controversy” I’m aware of is that many Jews erroneously believe Hitler was a "Christian." That misunderstanding arises from the fact that many Jews have a misconception that all gentiles are "Christian." In reality, Hitler was an occultist (the antithesis of Christianity) as revealed by his membership in the occultist Thule Society. He was also a devoted follower of the secular philosophers Fredrich Nietzsche and Charles Darwin. Darwin's "Descent of Man" was the basis of Hitler's belief in eugenics along with Darwin's teaching that the stronger race should, through the evolutionary process, eliminate the weaker races, etc. Aside from the use of his occasional, disheveled references to religion in general, Hitler was by no means "religious" by even the remotest definition of anything that would be considered orthodox.

RayAmerica says

The “Enlightenment?” LOL ! Are you referring to the French Revolution?

Did you actually attend school anywhere? If you really believe the age of enlightenment was Robespierre in the french revolution

RayAmerica says

Hitler was by no means “religious” by even the remotest definition of anything that would be considered orthodox

Okay, not orthodox. Maybe not religious as in practicing a particular religion. Obviously he was crazy, but he said he was "doing the will of god" and he may have believed it.

Good source on the question: http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1699/was-hitler-a-christian

When all is said and done, Krueger says that anecdotal evidence from those close to him near the end of his life suggests that he was a at least a deist, if not a theist. Krueger concludes: "So here's what evidence we have. There is a certain worldview, Nazism. Its leader, Hitler, professes on many occasions to be religious, and he often states that he's doing the will of god. The majority of his followers are openly religious.

bob2356 says

Did you actually attend school anywhere? If you really believe the age of enlightenment was Robespierre in the french revolution

I don't know where you went to school, but I refer you to Edmund Burke's "Reflections on the Revolution in France" in which he proves in great detail the negative influences of the Enlightenment philosophers on the revolution. I don't understand your reference to Robespierre. I suggest you read Otto Scott’s “Robespierre: The Voice of Virtue” for more study on his enormous influence and the role he played.

marcus says

he said he was “doing the will of god” and he may have believed it.

So did the crazies that flew planes into buildings on 9/11. Obviously, any religion that teaches such nonsense is unorthodox and completely false.

RayAmerica says

Obviously, any religion that teaches such nonsense is unorthodox and completely false.

Thanks for breaking that down for me.

You are so welcome. Anytime you need help with your homework lessons, just let me know.

tatupu70 says

Paralithodes says

Translation: Right-wing attacks against Democratic Presidents are hateful and are false. Left-wing attacks against Republican Presidents are not hateful because they are just observations and are true.

Well, you have to admit that Bush looks like a monkey though. Right?

Yes.

Troy says

We all have our own bigotries, I’m bigoted against money-grubbing Jews...

Do you mean like the Hassids in Brooklyn who run diamond or electronics stores? Or do you mean someone with "berg" in their last name, who looks like he might be Jewish, but may not be religious to any degree? Or is it just those who have horns?

RayAmerica says

bob2356 says

Did you actually attend school anywhere? If you really believe the age of enlightenment was Robespierre in the french revolution

I don’t know where you went to school, but I refer you to Edmund Burke’s “Reflections on the Revolution in France” in which he proves in great detail the negative influences of the Enlightenment philosophers on the revolution. I don’t understand your reference to Robespierre. I suggest you read Otto Scott’s “Robespierre: The Voice of Virtue” for more study on his enormous influence and the role he played.

Just curious, do you read your own posts as you type them. Your exact post was:RayAmerica says

The “Enlightenment?” LOL ! Are you referring to the French Revolution?

Which to me means you consider the enlightenment and the French revolution to be one and the same. Then you, not me, reference Robespierre and his reign of terror. Robespierre was a petty tyrant, not a great thinker. You seem to ignore the entire basis of the enlightenment which was to question the divine rights of kings to rule in collusion with the church NOT a repudiation of Christianity. You also totally ignore the causes of the French revolution which was an utterly destitute population starving to death being ruled by a very small, extremely wealthy, totally corrupt elite consisting of the kings court and the church.

Did you read the same Burke letter as I did or just the clip notes. Most of Burke's writing is protesting the confiscation of church lands and defending the role of the church in France. You left out the Burke SUPPORTED the American Revolution, also heavily influenced by the enlightenment philosophy.

Then you continue
RayAmerica says

You can remove all Christian law and morality from society. The French proved this is possible as did the Bolsheviks, the Nazis, Maoists, etc. Don’t be surprised when utter chaos and mass murder follows for all those that refuse to conform and bow to the beast that the state has created.

You are implying that utter chaos and mass murder never happened when the church was involved. The church's hands are literally dripping with the blood of those who refused to conform and bow to the beast the church created for the last 2000 years. Get a grip.

Tell me about the innate christian goodness of the events of:
Constantine
Charlemagne
the cathars
salem witch trials and the Puritans religious police state
knights templar and clement the V
teutonic order
rwanda
holocost
the first crusade atrocity in germany
the third crusade in acre
Pope Innocent III "kill them all, god will know his own"
spanish inquisition
Protestant Inquisition in the 1500's
slaughter of the Huguenots in the 1500's
slaughter of the Anabaptists
Oliver Cromwell
Bogdan Chmielnicki the Cossack Cromwell
The Thirty Years' War.
the bishop of Gdansk
Bucharest 1801
russian pogroms
sudan 1960's
ireland forever

Paralithodes says

You are implying that utter chaos and mass murder never happened when the church was involved. The church’s hands are literally dripping with the blood of those who refused to conform and bow to the beast the church created

Nice attempt to try to change what I said. I never referenced the "church" which, for the most part, has been corrupted by mankind throughout history. The list that you provided in your post has nothing in common whatsoever with what Christ and the Apostles taught in the New Testament. If you think it does, please show me where it is.

bob2356 says

Which to me means you consider the enlightenment and the French revolution to be one and the same.

The French Revolution was the embodiment of enlightenment, secular thinking.

bob2356 says

Then you, not me, reference Robespierre and his reign of terror. Robespierre was a petty tyrant, not a great thinker.

You can attempt to diminish Robespierre’s role in the Revolution, but historical facts differ from your understanding. He was in fact recognized as the moral voice of the Revolution and believed that to be the case himself. That's why he morphed into believing he was the embodiment of a new religion with himself being the "Superior Being."

bob2356 says

ireland forever

Well that's a new twist on an old saying. Usually Éirinn go Brách sounds more optimistic, but you just mean they'll fight forever.

Anyway, both sides are nominally Christian in that fight. It's more about who's the landlord and who's the tenant, and how it got to be that way.

RayAmerica says

Nice attempt to try to change what I said. I never referenced the “church” which, for the most part, has been corrupted by mankind throughout history

No you said "christian law and morality". So christian law and morality has nothing to do with "church"? interesting idea. kind of like immaculate conception but for morality. As a biblical scholar you should certainly know the teachings of Jesus was very secular. Jesus never declared any laws, only espoused principles. The christian laws came from the church. So which is it that you are referring to, the teachings of Jesus or the laws of the church?

RayAmerica says

That’s why he morphed into believing he was the embodiment of a new religion with himself being the “Superior Being.”

Bullshit, he morphed into a totalitarian tyrant, just one of a long list going back to the dawn of history, trying to use enlightenment ideas to justify it. The American revolution was also the embodiment of enlightenment, secular thinking and the losers didn't get killed in mass. Why not?

The historical facts are that the French revolution in some form, probably a lot less murderous would have happened with or without Robspierre. The system was at an end point, like the czars, like colonialism, like the greek city states, like the roman empire, like every failed system throughout history. It had reached its natural end point in history where the advances in civilization made the existing political structure obsolete, combined with the majority of people being very oppressed and no longer willing to support a very corrupt group of very wealthy leaders. This has gone on throughout history in both the christian and non christian worlds. If you choose to view these events through your conservative lens (Burke is widely considered the father of modern conservatism) as a christian vs secular argument then that's your option. I personally reject it.

RayAmerica says

Paralithodes says

You are implying that utter chaos and mass murder never happened when the church was involved. The church’s hands are literally dripping with the blood of those who refused to conform and bow to the beast the church created

Nice attempt to try to change what I said. I never referenced the “church” which, for the most part, has been corrupted by mankind throughout history. The list that you provided in your post has nothing in common whatsoever with what Christ and the Apostles taught in the New Testament. If you think it does, please show me where it is.

Not sure what happened here but you attribute that quote to me. It's not mine.

asleywtsn3 says

Christen laws and morality are very good and high level thing to understand for a common public. The high educated people only can only understand such things.

How to recognize spam, by elliemae.

1) poor spelling
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3) posted in response to another post, yet has nothing in common with the first
4) includes link to website that has nothing to do with the post
5) appears to have been written by someone whose primary language certainly isn't english