patrick.net

Abe ....
Now you've done it. You went and enumerated, in writing, for all to see, the tenets of radical Liberalism .... I mean Communism. Be prepared for a violent attack by all the nutcases as they’ve now been smoked out of their dark, creepy spider holes. All of these wackos will be throwing everything they have at you for exposing their platform for all to see.

Nomograph says

Dishonest Abe says

Good bye dummies

Does that mean you’re going away? Sweet.

Maybe there's a good "bye" on dummies, and he needs friends.

The logical conclusion would be if giving up some rights produces a better society, then giving all rights would produce a perfect society.

Real Monty Python logic there, Abe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr8DIg3oHFI#t=2m58s

Two funny things.

Thing #1: The Secret Socialists up in Alaska have stashed away $50,000 per person in the state-run Permanent Fund

Thing #2: The *Real* Socialists up in Norway have around *twice* that set aside for their socialized retirement fund.

I haven't been within 1000 miles of Norway but anyone slagging on Socialism really needs to tell me WTF they're doing wrong.

Honest Abe: (Gee, a few more years of liberal democratic “leadership” and we’ll be 100% of the way there. How many Czars do we already have, comrade?)

I don't know how many Czars there are, but I am sure there are too many. If I recall corectly, it was Republican President Nixon in about 1973 or 1974 that appointed the first Czar to head the Federal Energy Office which became the Energy Department. After that Carter appointed an inflation Czar and then President Regan appointed the Drug Czar and it's just kept going. I hate the Russian titles as well and I don't like that they inflate the government while increasing staff and sometimes making new departments. But, If I recall back that far it's the Republicans and President Nixon that started this Czar stuff.

Holy shit, now we're back to red scares?

1950 called, they want their bullshit fear mongering back.

Fun fact: china has lower tax rates than every western nation. Because when you own the businesses, you don't need to collect taxes.

The idea that taxes and communism go together is hilarious.

Really interesting. Thanks thunderlips.

I haven't thought about this authoritarian angle in quite a while, but I do recall a ways back when a friend of mine pointed out that another very conservative republican (Vietnam vet) friend was an authoritarian, meaning they had infinite trust in the authority of their leaders, even a comfort in that authority. It made sense, but I haven't thought about it so much since then. But the links (from thunderlips) within that link to the actual study, are very interesting.

The authoritarian idea is an intriguing way to frame this entire dangerous movement we now have, that is in it's infancy. Here are a couple of quotes, just to get people to check it out.

from sublink: http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/drbob/Comment%20on%20the%20Tea%20Party.pdf

5. A lack of critical thinking. Authoritarian followers have more trouble thinking logically than most people do. In particular, they tend to agree with sayings and slogans, even contradictory ones, because they have heard them a lot. Thus Tea Partiers reflexively, patriotically thump that the United States is the best country on earth, but as well that it is now an Obama dictatorship. They also have extra trouble applying logic to false reasoning when they like the conclusion. A ready example can be found in Tea Partiers‟ assertion that Obama is a socialist. They have heard this over and over again from Rush Limbaugh, etcetera, and “so it must be true.” But Obama has never advocated state ownership of an industry. He certainly did not advocate state ownership of health insurance, and eventually even backed away from the “public option” (that most Americans wanted) which would have let the government as well as private companies offer health insurance.

...

6. Our “biggest problem.” Authoritarian followers will readily believe that lots of things are our “biggest problem.” It can be drugs, the decline of religion, the breakdown of the family, you name it. Thus it was not hard to get Tea Partiers worked up about, of all things, a plan to improve health care to the levels found in other industrialized countries. Yet Tea Partiers believe the passage of the health care bill marks the end of liberty. But they could just as easily have been led to believe that climate change legislation, nuclear disarmament, gay marriage, or taking “In God we trust” off the money would sound the death knell for America. In earlier eras it could have been sex education, Sunday shopping, the 40-hour week, or a Catholic president that would lead to our doom.

...

7. Compartmentalized thinking. Authoritarian followers can have so many contradictory beliefs and “biggest problems” because their thinking is highly compartmentalized. Ideas exist independently of the other ideas in their head. Their thinking is so unintegrated because they have spent their lives copying what their authorities say, without examining whether the ideas fit together sensibly. And Tea Partiers say over and over that the Democrats are installing a dictatorship, but they demonstrate every time they demonstrate that Americans still have all the freedom of speech they ever had. And one notes the health care reforms bear a striking resemblance to Social Security and Medicare—which many of the protestors happily enjoy and would never give up. Tea Partiers argue that competition makes private enterprise do things more efficiently than the wasteful government can; but they don‟t want the insurance industry to have to compete against a public option in health care that might offer coverage at lower prices. And they complain bitterly that the government is ruining the economy by interfering in the free market system. But the recession was brought on precisely because the banks had been de-regulated, showing the only “invisible hand” at work then was the one sliding other people‟s money into its own pocket. Even Alan Greenspan eventually realized this (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/24/business/economy/24panel.html ). 4

Again, thanks Thunderlips.

abe says "The logical conclusion would be if giving up some rights produces a better society, then giving all rights would produce a perfect society."

This is an example of hyperbole. Which is exactly what Nomo uses to educate and "expose" the hyperbole.... more hyperbole. No one really believes Abe believes his statement about rights. But Nomo treats him like a child, probably due to a superiority complex.

And then to top it off he resorts to propaganda:

Nomograph says

Most wingnuts live in a black-or-white world, and are typically unable to grasp nuance, subtlety, and interplay.

Nomo lives in a black and white world where you are either an intelligent thoughtful person who believes that he thinks for himself (but really is just as near sighted as the next guy for the most part) or a foolish pawn led around by the winds of propaganda. Anyone who believes his propaganda is as foolish as NOMO claims "wingnuts" to be.

AdHominem says

Anyone who believes his propaganda is as foolish as NOMO claims “wingnuts” to be.

Wait a minute, I hear Nomo's propaganda to be basically: don't follow propaganda

Then you're saying I am a fool to follow that ?

So you are saying I am a fool if I don't follow the propaganda you like?

Dude, that's pretty messed up.

You can talk about my "failed logic" all you want but it doesn't change the fact that its you people who are the one's marching us down the path toward serfdom.

Its patriots like Adho, Bap, Ray and myself who are trying to prevent all of us, including the ignorant, from becoming slaves to the state.

BTW, failed logic is fiat money. Failed logic is trying to solve a debt and spending problem with more debt and more spending. Failed logic is the Ponzi scheme known as Social Security (AKA Socialized Insecurity). Failed logic is creating Government Sponsored Entities which privatize profit, but socialize losses. Failed logic is allowing an entity to have a monopoly in creating money and being allowed to price fix interest rates at the same time. Failed logic is allowing some animals to be treated "more equally" than other animals. Failed logic is promoting class warfare. Failed logic is having non-business people create laws to regulate businesses. Failed logic is ignoring the law of unintended consequences. Failed logic is rejecting "the invisible hand". Failed logic is denying "the rule of 72". Failed logic is ignoring the Constitution.

If I continue I'm going to have to charge "you people" for my time, you know, kinda like a union "worker" or a slimy attorney.

Oh noes the govenment is taking over oaur brainz!!!

Honest Abe says

Bap, Ray and myself who are trying to prevent all of us, including the ignorant, from becoming slaves to the state.

You have yet to explain to me how Norwegians with their rather well-developed state socialism are "slaves to the state".

Their per-capita GDP is higher than us and they have 10X per capita ($200,000) in the social pensioned fund invested in the global equity market (unlike ours which is a captured SWF).

Norwegians rank highest on happiness and civic development, have free everything, and pay relatively high taxes for all this.

You may think that high taxes are the deal-breaker, but I think this is an interesting test case of the theory that "all taxes come out of rents (and land values)". I do know that when Sweden lowered their property taxes, land values shot up there.

Failed logic is trying to solve a debt and spending problem with more debt and more spending.

This, I agree with. we need to seriously reduce the debt by cutting back spending and raising taxes. No brainer.

Failed logic is the Ponzi scheme known as Social Security (AKA Socialized Insecurity)

SSI is not a ponzi. The baby boomers self-funded their retirement by being overtaxed $1.5T over the past 25 years (and have another $1T of accrued interest on that).

Adjusting SSI for current post-boomer payees may require incredibly small increases in the payroll tax (we're talking dollars per week).

Failed logic is allowing an entity to have a monopoly in creating money and being allowed to price fix interest rates at the same time.

As if the pre-Fed 19th century proved the converse. Clown.

Failed logic is allowing some animals to be treated “more equally” than other animals.

Opaque reference.

Failed logic is promoting class warfare.

LOL. There's been a class warfare going on since 1980, and the middle class has lost.

Failed logic is having non-business people create laws to regulate businesses.

LOL. Glibertarianism at its finest.

Failed logic is ignoring the law of unintended consequences.

ZZzz.

Failed logic is rejecting “the invisible hand”

The Free Market Fairy exists largely in your mind Abe (or AdHom, I forget who I'm responding to, not like it matters).

Honest Abe says

Its patriots like Adho, Bap, Ray and myself who are trying to prevent all of us, including the ignorant, from becoming slaves to the state.

Wow--thanks. What exactly are you doing to prevent us from becoming slaves? Besides posting to a housing crash forum?

Ok, Kevin is in denial, Troy is in denial, Marcus is in denial, and Tatu is in denial (a common trait of lib's, tree huggers, socialists, communists and the like). You're all either ignorant of reality - you know - whats happening to America...or you approve, authorize and endorse the war on freedom.

You lefties would rather blindly cling to the belief that we ARE NOT losing our freedoms than to open your eyes to the reality that we ACTUALLY ARE. More government (and more regulation) are not the solution. More government is the problem. What needs to be regulated in America are the politicians at every level of government. "I'm from the government and I'm here to help" hahaha. If you believe that you'll believe anything.

MOMMY, I need help, I can't do it myself !!

Honest Abe says

Ok, Kevin is in denial, Troy is in denial, Marcus is in denial, and Tatu is in denial (a common trait of lib’s, tree huggers, socialists, communists and the like). You’re all either ignorant of reality - you know - whats happening to America…or you approve, authorize and endorse the war on freedom.
You lefties would rather blindly cling to the belief that we ARE NOT losing our freedoms than to open your eyes to the reality that we ACTUALLY ARE. More government (and more regulation) are not the solution. More government is the problem. What needs to be regulated in America are the politicians at every level of government. “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” hahaha. If you believe that you’ll believe anything.
MOMMY, I need help, I can’t do it myself !!

I must have missed where you talked about all that you are doing to help prevent us from being slaves. Could you share with us? I just want to make sure I properly thank you for all of your efforts.

Only if you pay me for my time. I'm tired of giving out information that is freely available to anyone with the ability to read and think. Do it yourself for a change. Grow up.

Honest Abe says

Only if you pay me for my time. I’m tired of giving out information that is freely available to anyone with the ability to read and think. Do it yourself for a change. Grow up.

Huh? You said:

Honest Abe says

Its patriots like Adho, Bap, Ray and myself who are trying to prevent all of us, including the ignorant, from becoming slaves to the state.

I was just wondering what the patriots are doing these days. (and don't tell me playing football this Sunday). You can't answer that simple question? I'm pretty sure it's not because you are too busy seeing how much you post here...

Honest Abe says

Its patriots like Adho, Bap, Ray and myself who are trying to prevent all of us, including the ignorant, from becoming slaves to the state.

tatupu70 says

Wow–thanks. What exactly are you doing to prevent us from becoming slaves? Besides posting to a housing crash forum?

Duh, tat! He's calling in the big dawgs:
Honest Abe says

MOMMY, I need help, I can’t do it myself !!

Beware of every old woman you meet. I work with oodles of them, and I'm running scared.

My freedom is so much more constrained than it was three years ago.