patrick.net

Troy says

nosf41 says

Natural born citizen is not the same as citizen at birth.

Uttterly wrong by your own cite:
“Anyone born on American soil whose parents are citizens of the United States is a “natural born citizen.” Anyone whose citizenship is acquired after birth as a result of naturalization is not a natural born citizen.”
By your own stupid cite Obama was either a natural born citizen or he became a naturalized citizen later.
Given his certificate of live birth was filed in the week after his birth in Hawaii, he was a US citizen at birth and thus not a naturalized citizen.
“it appears that the most logical inferences would indicate that the phrase “natural born Citizen” would mean a person who is entitled to U.S. citizenship “at birth”or” by birth” — Congressional Research Service, 2009
“All persons born in the allegiance of the King are natural-born subjects, and all persons born in the allegiance of the United States are natural-born citizens.” — United States v. Rhodes, 1866
Professor told you that there is a general agreement on the core of its meaning. Anyone born on American soil whose parents are citizens of the United States is a “natural born citizen”.
Great, you’ve just destroyed your own stupid argument.
Your own cite is just dealing with McCain’s own citizenship issues and spends a lot of words but goes nowhere.
James Madison, 1789:
“It is an established maxim, that birth is a criterion of allegiance. Birth, however, derives its force sometimes from place, and sometimes from parentage; but, in general place is the most certain criterion; it is what applies in the United States.”
“Suppose a person should be elected President who was native born, but of alien parents, could there be any reasonable doubt that he was eligible under the constitution? I think not. The position would be decisive in his favor that by the rule of the common law, in force when the constitution was adopted, he is a citizen.”
Lynch v. Clarke, 1844
The 14th Amendment trumps all legislation (and prior constitutional jurisprudence for that matter). It states:
“All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.”
If Obama was born in the United States, he was a natural born citizen. The judge in the 2009 upheld this.
Birthers have nothing but vague bullshit in response.

The US Naturalization Act from 1790 says the following:
"...And the children of citizens of the United States that may be born beyond Sea, or out of the limits of the United States, shall be considered as natural born Citizens..."

The law was changed 5 years later in 1795:
"...and the children of citizens of the United States, born out of the limits and jurisdiction of the United States, shall be considered as citizens of the United States..."

This example tells us that early Congress made a distinction between phrases "natural born Citizen" and citizen (at birth).

In addition, both laws say the following: "That the right of citizenship shall not descend to persons, whose fathers have never been resident of the United States"

The last sentence illustrates thinking of those early legislators: they would not consider a child born to an alien, non-resident, father either as a citizen or a natural born Citizen.

Obama's father was a foreign student who never intended to establish a residence in the US. He returned to Kenya as soon as he finished studies here.

MarkInSF says

This thread is still going?

It won't die. If you can't prove your point logically, with facts and stuff, it's always best to beat everyone into submission by repeating yourself ad nauseum. If they were in the room with us at a party, they'd be saying it loudly while standing over us (pounding the table like the mentally ill homless guy who talks to himself) until we work our way to the door and sneak out to Denny's.

I love chocolate.

nosf41 says

This example tells us that early Congress made a distinction between phrases “natural born Citizen” and citizen (at birth).

It may tell you and other wishful-thinkers that but there's no other jurisprudence that supports this. The alternative explanation is simply that they realized "natural born citizen" is a constitutional term of art (meant to exclude naturalized citizens from the Presidency) and Congress' job was limited to defining only citizenship -- who is and isn't a "natural born citizen" would, uh, naturally fall out from that.

The last sentence illustrates thinking of those early legislators: they would not consider a child born to an alien, non-resident, father either as a citizen or a natural born Citizen.

For people not born in the US, yes. Obama doesn't have this problem.

Nomograph says

It doesn’t matter if various arguments completely contradict each other, as long as they lead to the desired conclusion they will believe it.

You've forgotten the obvious: that Simcha claims to like chocolate. However, there's no quantifiable evidence to support his position. He purposefully didn't offer any additional information and I demand to know more about his position on this ever important issue. Does he purport to like dark chocolate, milk chocolate, white chocolate (which, according to Wikipedia, is "a confection of sugar, cocoa butter and milk solids with a pale yellow or ivory appearance..." - in other words, not really chocolate at all!). Does he claim to like have a propensity for chocolates - like See's or the super-expensive kinds like Godiva, or is he a store-bought candy bar kind of dude?

Simcha has mentioned his fondness of chocolate on at least two different threads, which leads me to wonder what he's hiding... Does he have a chocolate fetish and this is his way of telling the world about it? This man (or freak, depending upon what he does with the chocolate...) must come clean and provide us with more information.

Does he mean to tell us that Obama likes chocolate too? Is he in the know? Did Obama's parents like chocolate, and therefore any person who likes chocolate must prove his citizenship?

Too many questions and not enough answers. Simchaland, I demand that you defend yourself against the following with a yes or no answer:
Do you like chocolate more than you like your country and, if so, are you prepared to take a test (the long form) to prove your loyalty to the US of A?

Nomograph says

Birthers have a preconceived conclusion (e.g. that Obama is not eligible to be President) and will fall hook and line for ANY argument that leads to this conclusion.

Nomo, you are not giving Birthers enough credit.

The will fall hook line and SINKER, let's not be niggardly eh?

Can we get a mod to lock this thread?

It's clear that all the arguments have been presented.

It's continuing life serves no purpose.

frodo says

Can we get a mod to lock this thread?
It’s clear that all the arguments have been presented.
It’s continuing life serves no purpose.

So you don't care what kind of chocolate Simchaland, and by extension, Obama, might like? That's downright unAmerican.

This thread died long ago. Now we're just screwing around.

simchaland says

I love chocolate.

Good point.

Nomograph says

frodo says

It’s continuing life serves no purpose.

It serves to continually mock the Tea Party Birthers nutjobs like shreckgrinch, nosf41, and RayAMerica.
That alone is enough reason to keep it immortalized.

Ahh yes leave to Nomo to point out something I had not thought of.

You are indeed correct sir.

I rescind my request in light of this convincing perspective.

OK, yeah, Ill screw with them a little more.

Here is a line of discussion I have not seen pursued.

Suppose he wasn't born in America. Someone comes up with incontrovertible proof of this (Ahahahahahahaaaaaa Oh Ho ho hahahahahahah . . . harrumph. . . . . Snooort.) So anyway, I was saying that the entire population of the world, including Obama, agrees that he was not born on US soil.

Waddayougonnadoaboutit?

Impeach him? The way they impeached Clinton? ;) Imagine you do impeach him, and manage to get him to leave office; you get Biden for your troubles.

Stop being so short sighted. All of your wordplay cannot give credence to this absurd topic. Bow you friggen head and move on. There are other battles to be fought, birthers lost this one. Of course we all know that none of them have any intent beyond misdirection and provocation.

The foot soldiers who fight for this cause are tools. Tools and slaves.

Actually if it came out that President Obama lied about being a US citizen at birth, that is a prima-facie slam-dunk instant impeachment, and I would fully support it.

That's why I don't dismiss all this crap 100%. The birthers have every right to verify the Certification of Live Birth is not fraudulent.

Troy says

Actually if it came out that President Obama lied about being a US citizen at birth...

...he'd be a fucking child prodigy well beyond any other child, ever. Even my kids (who were the smartest and cutest kids in the entire world, with the possible exception of my future grandchildren) couldn't speak at birth.

frodo says

Someone comes up with incontrovertible proof of this (Ahahahahahahaaaaaa Oh Ho ho hahahahahahah . . . harrumph. . . . . Snooort.)

Stop right there, young man! Just by saying "Ahahahahahahaaaaaa Oh Ho ho hahahahahahah . . . harrumph. . . . . Snooort" you've provided incontrovertible proof that "Ahahahahahahaaaaaa Oh Ho ho hahahahahahah . . . harrumph. . . . . Snooort" exists, thereby completely nullifying your argument about the doubtfulness of the concept.

Meanwhile, Simchaland skirts the issue (sorry, didn't mean to call your manhood into question but "pants" the issue simply doesn't make sense, nor does "tighty-whities...") that I raised: What kind of chocolate?

bob2356 says

simchaland says

I love chocolate.

Good point.

Bob weighs in now - it's a conspiracy!

What I don't understand is, why are the Birthers pussyfooting around with this LAWYER nonsense.

They want the man out of office ASAP, there are long-established and cheap ways to achieve that. Steer an irresistible intern into the office, or have one of his opponents challenge him to a duel, or heck just BLOW HIS BRAINS OUT with a sniper rifle. Some Teabagger at a recent town hall sounded like he was putting out feelers for the right candidate for that job:

http://athenscms.com/blogs/2487/

APOCALYPSEFUCK says

I saw a picture of the Kenyan Interloper drinking water - PROOF POSITIVE that he is a hybridized plant designed to look like a human, developed by extraterrestrials.
This is EXACTLY what happened in an episode of the Dick Van Dyke show in which Rob found out that Laura was an alien!
PROOF at LAST!

Endoftheworldprocreator has a point - Lucy Arnaz was the Vitameatavegamin girl, and the next thing you know Dezi was gone... MTM got her own new show which was much more popular than the Hope Lange/Dick Van Dyke show... and Jerry Van Dyke's mother was a car until he got a coaching job... It all leads to the obvious:

Obama is part of a sitcom - there will be a sequel starring Michelle and her new husband, Bam Margera - it'll be called Bam's house. Crazy goings on will happen, with Michelle holding down the fort while Bam and his crew run amuck in Washington. Sasha & Melia become goth... this, while Barak traces his roots on a teevee show and finds out that he's really Dutch-Irish with a heavy tan.

Excuse me, I've got to take my meds now.

Shrekgrinch has company. One of the 2012 Presidential hopefuls has come out to say he believes Obama was born in Kenya!

Huck-a-bee. Huck-a-bee. Huck-a-bee.

The Republican primary debates are going to be a hoot as these fools stammer around talking about inane differences between birth certificates and magic long forms as the President gives speaches addressing the foreign policy of the nation.

I wonder who's going to look more Presidential? Hmmmm...

Anyone else just skim past all of nosf41's 18th century jibber jabber and legalese posts? He puts a lot of thought and work into the Birther conspiracy and I feel guilty for not educating myself on the minutiae he clearly cares so much about.

Then I remember Abraham Lincoln had no birth certificate, no certificate of live birth, no long form, no short form, no medium form, no proof of natural born citizenship, no proof of citizenship via birth, no citizenship papers, and no record at all of his entry into the world within the borders of the United States.

From the Southern Gentleman's Slavery Gazette in 1862:

Tis a sorrowful Day in the Republic as We, peoples Free and White, Ponder the ineligibility of the President of the United States. Master Lincoln continues to fail to provide the Lengthy scribe Journal proving his Birth in our Fair Republic! I dare Say this Man may Not be a Man atall, But a Clever slave baby Who crept Silently into the Lincoln families Log Cabin Under the cover of A Dark and Clouded Moon!

Poor Troy is the only guy willing to get into the weeds with this stuff.

Ditto, no patience for the long screeds.

Whole swaths of generations of Americans had little proof of their birth or life history, beyond notes scribbled in the blank pages of the Family Bible, and maybe some headstones.

SoCal Renter says

Anyone else just skim past all of nosf41’s 18th century jibber jabber and legalese posts? He puts a lot of thought and work into the Birther conspiracy and I feel guilty for not educating myself on the minutiae he clearly cares so much about.
Then I remember Abraham Lincoln had no birth certificate, no certificate of live birth, no long form, no short form, no medium form, no proof of natural born citizenship, no proof of citizenship via birth, no citizenship papers, and no record at all of his entry into the world within the borders of the United States.
From the Southern Gentleman’s Slavery Gazette in 1862:

Tis a sorrowful Day in the Republic as We, peoples Free and White, Ponder the ineligibility of the President of the United States. Master Lincoln continues to fail to provide the Lengthy scribe Journal proving his Birth in our Fair Republic! I dare Say this Man may Not be a Man atall, But a Clever slave baby Who crept Silently into the Lincoln families Log Cabin Under the cover of A Dark and Clouded Moon!

Poor Troy is the only guy willing to get into the weeds with this stuff.

Don't the personal cards that proclaim Lincoln's mother is no longer with child and therefore ready to resume working as a shopgirl count for something? Have we become so jaded that we don't count the whittling Lincoln's father wrote on the cabin walls as a proclamation of live birth?

Jeesh, youse guys...

elliemae says
Don’t the personal cards that proclaim Lincoln’s mother is no longer with child and therefore ready to resume working as a shopgirl count for something? Have we become so jaded that we don’t count the whittling Lincoln’s father wrote on the cabin walls as a proclamation of live birth?
Jeesh, youse guys…

Forgeries by Lincoln's operatives. Anyone can simply put out a fake newspaper birth announcement or a fake personal card. A southern slave catching expert in 1862 examined the whittlings on the cabin walls and reported that the crude marks were clearly made by a devious slave child.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence that Lincoln was not eligible to be President of the United States. When the rest of the Tea Party finally gets into Congress, they will be able to rectify this situation and show that the South actually won the Civil War because all of Lincoln's decisions were illegal.

SoCal Renter says

There is a tremendous amount of evidence that Lincoln was not eligible to be President of the United States. When the rest of the Tea Party finally gets into Congress, they will be able to rectify this situation and show that the South actually won the Civil War because all of Lincoln’s decisions were illegal.

I would faithfully submit that George Washington wasn't eligible to run as president because he wasn't born in the United States of America! He was born February 22, 1732, yet the USofA became a country in 1776. His entire presidency (which began in 1789) should be stricken from the record, and every piece of legislation including the Bill of Rights (1791) is no longer valid.

...and every presidency until that of Martin Van Buren, who was born in 1782, doesn't count either. Then, we took a step backward with Wm Henry Harrison who was born a full three years before the USA was born. So his presidency doesn't count either.

It's a fucking conspiracy at the highest levels, why can't youse guys see that?

Tenouncetrout says

I find it Ironic, I’ve heard every side to this story 10 ways to Sunday, and have yet to hear the commandeered and Chief, officially say or do anything on the subject. That’s messed up for a guy that is supposed to be a leader, and talked about “bipartisanship’ early on. This isn’t some frivolous document in dispute here, it’s the BC of the President of the United States. By now, there should be an official page at the Whitehouse website specially dedicated to an official birth certificate.

Did George W. Bush have an official White House page specially dedicated to HIS birth certificate? Has ANY president had such a page?

shrekgrinch says

The only thing I have seen is a ’short form’ cert that by Hawaiian state law only means that Hawaii has the real, long form one or an out of state/out of country one filed.

Well, I looked through this whole disaster of a thread, and I do not see anywhere that you have provided any evidence for this statement. What is your proof that the certificate provided is a "short form" and that Hawaiian law says what you claim? Also, what is your evidence that this form is not valid proof of birth?

gameisrigged says

What is your proof that the certificate provided is a “short form” and that Hawaiian law says what you claim? Also, what is your evidence that this form is not valid proof of birth?

The difference is between "Certification of Live Birth" and "Certificate of Live Birth".

The former is the "short form" and is just a print out of data kept in the state's records.

It's also what the Obama campaign publicized back in 2008, and is all that the State of Hawaii is releasing to anyone who requests their birth certificate, since it is sufficient for the purposes of being a "birth certificate".

A "Certificate of Live Birth" is a photocopy of the original birth certificate as originally filed.

That Obama hasn't released that does allow the conspiracy theorists some room to charge fraud or whatever.

Troy says

The difference is between “Certification of Live Birth” and “Certificate of Live Birth”.
The former is the “short form” and is just a print out of data kept in the state’s records.
It’s also what the Obama campaign publicized back in 2008, and is all that the State of Hawaii is releasing to anyone who requests their birth certificate, since it is sufficient for the purposes of being a “birth certificate”.
A “Certificate of Live Birth” is a photocopy of the original birth certificate as originally filed.

You have simply re-stated the assertion. I asked for evidence that it is true, not just for the bald assertion to be repeated. I understand the CLAIM that is being made, but I do not see any reason that I ought to believe said claim.

Merely SAYING a thing does not make it true.

So again, I am asking him:

What is your proof that the certificate provided is a “short form” and that Hawaiian law says what you claim? Also, what is your evidence that this form is not valid proof of birth?

gameisrigged says

You have simply re-stated the assertion. I asked for evidence that it is true, not just for the bald assertion to be repeated...Also, what is your evidence that this form is not valid proof of birth?

Game, you crack me up. What Troy said is as easy to verify as the fact that the legal drinking age in California is 21. And BTW, look again. He did not even assert that it was not valid proof.

gameisrigged says

What is your proof that the certificate provided is a “short form”

Dude, if you look at it:

http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate

you can see the "birth certificate" Obama released is just a laser print-out ("Certification of Live Birth"), assumedly from the State of Hawaii, since they haven't said otherwise.

What the birthers want to see is what was filled out and filed with the state back in '61.

It turns out the Nordyke twins were born in the same hospital one day away from Obama's birth, and the mother has shown the press what the "long form" "Certificate of Live Birth" looks like:

As for the supposition that the "long form" / "vault copy" / "Certificate of Live Birth" will show something like Obama having been born in Kenya, Canada, or that his original birth father wasn't really Obama Sr. is just a fishing expedition the right wants to go on.

Though if Obama was in fact born overseas there would be an interesting Constitutional issue, since by the law that existed in 1961 Obama's mother had not spent enough time in the US to qualify Obama for US citizenship at birth (no mother under the age of 19 would, and Stanley was still 18 when giving birth to Obama jr).

A later law passed in 1987 retroactively fixed this (much like a later law fixed any issue with McCain not being a US citizen at birth, having been born overseas), but it is an interesting constitutional issue as to whether Congress has the power to pass laws that grant retroactive natural-born citizenship.

That one could easily go either way. I can argue both sides of that question pretty easily.

I'm curious, tho. If the requirements are that the president must have been born in the US, were there provisions for the first few who (by definition) weren't born in the US?

elliemae says

were there provisions for the first few who (by definition) weren’t born in the US?

yes, anyone holding US citizenship at the ratification was also explicitly eligible for POTUS.

MarkInSF says

Game, you crack me up. What Troy said is as easy to verify as the fact that the legal drinking age in California is 21. And BTW, look again. He did not even assert that it was not valid proof.

You crack ME up.

For the third time, What I asked SHREKGRINCH was:

What is your proof that the certificate provided is a “short form” and that Hawaiian law says what you claim? Also, what is your evidence that this form is not valid proof of birth?

Didn't ask Troy; didn't ask you.

MarkInSF says

What Troy said is as easy to verify as the fact that the legal drinking age in California is 21. And BTW, look again. He did not even assert that it was not valid proof.

Perhaps what I asked is easy to verify; perhaps it is not. I read the whole thread, and nobody has proven the answer to my questions.

And YOU look again. My questions were not addressed to Troy, so what Troy did or did not assert is irrelevant, as I was not talking to him.

Troy says

gameisrigged says

What is your proof that the certificate provided is a “short form”

Dude, if you look at it:
http://fightthesmears.com/articles/5/birthcertificate
you can see the “birth certificate” Obama released is just a laser print-out (”Certification of Live Birth”), assumedly from the State of Hawaii, since they haven’t said otherwise.
What the birthers want to see is what was filled out and filed with the state back in ‘61.
It turns out the Nordyke twins were born in the same hospital one day away from Obama’s birth, and the mother has shown the press what the “long form” “Certificate of Live Birth” looks like:

As for the supposition that the “long form” / “vault copy” / “Certificate of Live Birth” will show something like Obama having been born in Kenya, Canada, or that his original birth father wasn’t really Obama Sr. is just a fishing expedition the right wants to go on.

Well that's a start. I see there may be two different kinds of forms, but I don't see any evidence that Hawaiian law considers one more valid than the other, or that one is called "short" and the other "long"..... dude.

It's clear the intent of "citizen" is that the person owe primary allegiance to THIS country and be looking out for it's interests. That Tories could not easily just sweep an election and make King George the president, thus turning the fledgeling USA back into a colony. It's a common misconception that everyone in the US was on board with this Revolution thing. I feel satisfied that Obama owes his allegiance to this country and is acting in what he believes will best serve it. Birtherism is just sour grapes from people who spend FAR too much time armchair lawyering in the false belief that if they argue long & loud enough they can convince us the Earth is flat.

gameisrigged says

And YOU look again. My questions were not addressed to Troy, so what Troy did or did not assert is irrelevant, as I was not talking to him.

But...but...but you WERE talking to him. You're throwing your thoughts & ideas out there into the atmosphere and they're landing on this forum. You do understand that you're not having a personal conversation with anyone - right?

If you'd like to have a personal conversation with someone, I would suggest you click on "befriend" and once that person accepts, you'll exchange emails. At that point, you'll be having a personal conversation. But right now, your comments are up for grabs.

FYI.

...or you could call each other, go out for coffee dates, and continue this asinine conversation about Obama's birth certificate. I'm sure that'd be a blast.

Vicente says

Birtherism is just sour grapes from people who spend FAR too much time armchair lawyering in the false belief it matters.

It's also a form of character assassination, a direct attack on his "American" cred.

Huckabee, who has a pretty decent chance of being president in two years, recently baldly asserted that Obama was raised in Kenya (that whole Obama being influenced by third-world "anti-colonial" radicalism).

The problem isn't that the right is utterly detached from reality, the problem is that 30-40% of the electorate are buying into this alternate reality.

I'm actually structuring my life to GTFO of here should Huckabee, Palin, or any other conservative nut happen to take the Presidency, since I think there's a good chance the Dems are going to lose the Senate too.

I tried Chinese for a year, maybe I should study Swedish or Norwegian instead. The Scandinavians are really fluent in English of course but it doesn't hurt to know the language of your host country.

Or maybe mother England might work. Wish Japan had its economic act together, they'd be a no-brainer to return to for me. (Back in 1992 I *thought* I was leaving a failing economy for a stronger one, but I was a wee bit off on that)

gameisrigged says

but I don’t see any evidence that Hawaiian law considers one more valid than the other, or that one is called “short” and the other “long”….. dude.

Just trying to help everyone here, ya know?

"Short" vs "long" forms are not controversial, here is what wikipedia was saying about them on Feb 10, 2007, the day Obama announced his candidacy:

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Birth_certificate&oldid=107176929#Types_of_certification

As for Hawaiian law, they only give out the short form now so the short form is good enough for getting a US passport etc.

I think other state's attempts to require a "long form" birth certificate to register for President or VP will fail, but we'll see.

The birthers smell fire here and want to see what Obama's long form says. It could possibly have material facts that Obama has hidden or misrepresented. Paydirt would be him not actually being born in Hawaii at all, or being able to construe what's on the form as indicating that (eg no attending doctor signature).

Hawaii did in fact in the past request those desiring to prove aborigine Hawaiian ancestry to submit their "long form" not "short form" birth certificate. This doesn't make the long form more "valid", but like I said above, the more information the birthers have the more they can construe it into questions about Obama's history.

elliemae says

But…but…but you WERE talking to him. You’re throwing your thoughts & ideas out there into the atmosphere and they’re landing on this forum. You do understand that you’re not having a personal conversation with anyone - right?

Uh, no dear. If I ask SHREKGRINCH the following question:

"What is your evidence that this form is not valid proof of birth?"

That does not mean I am claiming TROY said it isn't valid proof.

You do get that if I say something about a particular person and mention him by name, it doesn't apply to everyone. They're free to answer, but what I say about someone else doesn't transfer to them. God, PLEASE tell me you understand that....

BTW, is there some reason why everyone here feels compelled to defend Shrekgrinch? A few posts back you were mercilessly attacking him.

Do you perhaps just thrive on conflict, no matter which side you have to take to cause it?

Troy says

gameisrigged says

but I don’t see any evidence that Hawaiian law considers one more valid than the other, or that one is called “short” and the other “long”….. dude.

Just trying to help everyone here, ya know?

Yeah, maybe you shouldn't.

gameisrigged says

BTW, is there some reason why everyone here feels compelled to defend Shrekgrinch?

answering questions of fact isn't "defending" someone, it's raising the level of discourse.

You should look into that, chum.

Troy says

gameisrigged says

BTW, is there some reason why everyone here feels compelled to defend Shrekgrinch?

answering questions of fact isn’t “defending” someone, it’s raising the level of discourse.
You should look into that, chum.

Bullshit.