patrick.net

Anyhow, when it's 2011, the unemployment rate is 17%, and the middle class has evaporated, then you will understand my point.

I have seen plenty of Mr. Million-in-debt, they all share the same blind optimism thinking the good days will always be here to stay.

Another blunder I see too often is buying before selling. Why would anyone be so optimistic that he thinks there will always be a fool in the market ready to take over his home at whatever he is asking for to cover the next mortgage? The simple rule that I was taught by my parents was, always sell first and then buy, even if it means you will have to rent for two months to make the schedule, because that way you will never be caught in a downturn, and you won't be stuck with two mortgages.

Fuzzy, the thing is, middle class has LONG evaporated, this crisis just makes it blatantly clear. There are already very few true middle class left (the former middle class are now known as the upper middle class or marginally rich). How many families can afford to have one working parent to carry the mortgage? How many families have enough savings to last 2 years of expenses? How many people approaching retirement age have enough nest eggs saved up? The evaporation of middle class was masked over in the last few years through their "asset appreciation" in terms of housing and stock price, once that is gone, the credit hole they are in, the ongoing negative cash flow they are enduring will just get acutely, painfully in their face. Today's American "middle class" are one or few paychecks away from defaulting on their financial obligations, and that was typical of working stiff less than a century ago.

This country is made up of a very small number of elite class, few middle upper class, mostly still-in-dream, self-proclaimed, self-disillusioned "middle class", and a substantial number of already hopeless already given-up underclass.

Obama's inauguration speech is just so Obama, you feel like you are taking an American literature class, but there are really no concrete action plans. None whatsoever. I am not really complaining, at least we've got a President who can speak eloquently as opposed to a mentally challenged shrub.

I also find it ominous that he is drawing so much from Lincoln's speech, not a good sign, for himself and his family to say the least. I understand why he thinks drawing a parallel to Lincoln will make sense, but if I were him, I would rather borrow a few encouraging words from Reagan's speech, at least Reagan lived till late 80s.

Yeah screw them! Asshole selling police supplies! They fucking deserve to starve!

It really becomes obvious how the ruling class stays in power when idiots like you open your mouth.

Classy!

Do you really think anyone in that article is going to starve? Or simply be forced to *gasp*; downsize their lifestyle?

Speaking of middle class, know what the median US household income is? About 50k (for now at least). Nobody in that article is 'middle class'. They are all rich people that bankrupted themselves pretending to be even richer people.

Fuck. Them. All.

Every single one of those people bought more house than they could afford. The end game of this deflationary debt-collapse is that real middle class folk (like myself) will be able to purchase affordable real-estate.

My life gets better. Theirs gets worse. Sucks to be them.

How many families can afford to have one working parent to carry the mortgage? How many families have enough savings to last 2 years of expenses? How many people approaching retirement age have enough nest eggs saved up?

This not necessarily a "middle class" concept. Plenty of modestly living blue collars have a paid-for home by age 45, with plenty of time to set up a modest retirement. Remember, even post bubble, one-third of US homes have no mortgage. It used to be one-half.

"Middle Class" used to be a Buick and a 1500 ft home. Every husbands favorite meal was meatloaf. Appetite for consumption did not exceed income. We will see this again when the attitudes change to value a paid for (albeit modest) house and car over luxury items with perpetual payments.

The end game of this deflationary debt-collapse is that real middle class folk (like myself) will be able to purchase affordable real-estate.

Amen!!

Blue collars will also benefit from lower housing costs. It may be a Clayton Home on a rural or small town lot, but it will be his. Or maybe a older home he bought cheap and fixed up over the years.

Reagan was 93 when he died.

FuzzyMath Says:
January 20th, 2009 at 5:52 pm
Anyhow, when it’s 2011, the unemployment rate is 17%, and the middle class has evaporated, then you will understand my point.

You had a point? lol.

seems like weve got a lot of false victimhood in the news lately…

Exactly.

These assholes will *still* lead a higher quality of life than me after bankruptcy and foreclosure.

You can't afford your 6k/month mortgage anymore? Boo-fucking-hoo. I *can* afford my 1k. Cry me a river.

not only will houses be more affordable, but jobs will return. We will no longer be fighting the current with regards to the outsourcing problem, because it will be just as cheap to have jobs here as in eg. India. Housing prices must fall.

And, I just heard that immigration is offering a green card to anyone that buys a million dollars or more in domestic real estate. Not only will domestic labor become affordable again; but all the worlds rich people will move here to take advantage of it!

I'm certainly not going to argue against the benefits of cheaper housing. But it's not really falling unless it falls relative to wages.

I know alot of people getting pay cuts... forced vacations, 4 day work weeks, etc.

Perhaps by the end of it if wages rise quicker than inflation we'd be better off. But right now it looks like mostly a wash.

Investment in real estate in US guarantees green card

http://www.propertywisebulgaria.com/article/investment-in-real-estate-in-us-guarantees-green-card/id_3158/catid_29

Note: I have not verified this.

If its true; I think its a fantastic idea. While the rest of the world implodes; offer sanctuary for the wealthy living abroad to emigrate to the US. There will be plenty of unemployed Americans available to mow their lawns and watch their kids; so no need for illegal labor!

Anyhow, when it’s 2011, the unemployment rate is 17%, and the middle class has evaporated, then you will understand my point.

Let's make something nice and crystal clear (since you think I'm retarded).

There is no formal definition of middle class. For arguments sake; lets define it as anywhere from half to twice the median household income.

Based on the 2007 numbers of 50k per household; that gives us a range of 25k-100k (again, household numbers). At the 3X income-to-mortgage multiplier, that puts the *peak* mortgage for a middle-class family @ 300k.

You see anyone with a 300k or less mortgage in that sob-story article?

No.

They are not middle class. They are not upper-middle class. They are/were upper class people living beyond their means that are going to be forced into a middle-class lifestyle entirely due to their own poor choices. They deserve no quarter. Especially from a middle-class wage slave like myself.

The *true* middle class, on the other hand, is going to enjoy a higher quality of life as their dollars regain purchasing power.

TOB, that sounds right for a definition. lol

Bargain hunting dominates Bay Area home sales in December

http://www.dqnews.com/News/California/Bay-Area/RRBay090121.aspx

too wealthy to collect welfare, too poor to pay off politicians.

Perfect!

Investment in real estate in US guarantees green card

Won't work.

Wealthy people will not want to be considered a US Person for Tax Purpose. It is the worst deal in the world.

They can just retire to London or Monte Carlo with a much better tax plan.

I flinch every time someone compares BHO to FDR.

I am actually trying to like Obama and I do not want to link him to that.

The panic of 1837 lasted only a few years, thanks to MVB's Free Market policies. Because of the New Deal, the Great Depression lasted until the next world war.

Krugman says that the depression lasted well into the war because FDR was foolish enough to try and balance the budget in 1937.

In other words, the New Deal was not enough. Balancing the budget in 1937 killed the revovery. WW1 was the biggest public works project in modern history and was what pulled the US out of the depression.

Krugman is saying exactly the opposite of what Peter P is saying.

Defibw Great Depression. WW1 occured before the Great Depression that I think of. Are you thinking about the Panic of 1907?

*define darn my hands moved to the left just like America.

s/WW1/WW2/g

Well, we got out of the Panic of 1837 in a few short years without a new deal.

I don't know why History appears to idolize FDR. Who is Krugman anyway?

My bad, according to this book WW2 did not end the Great Depression...

... true prosperity only returned when Washington turned away from New Dealism following the election of the Eightieth Congress in 1946

http://www.amazon.com/Rethinking-Great-Depression-American-Ways/dp/1566634717

I am glad that BHO idolizes Abraham Lincoln, a Republican. :)

Another book of truth:

http://www.amazon.com/FDRs-Folly-Roosevelt-Prolonged-Depression/dp/140005477X/ref=pd_sim_b_2

FDR hampered the recovery.

The book is so popular that it is out of stock. People must be scared.

I have faith in BHO. I think he will not kill the economy like FDR did. He can actually walk!

(But I know he is not a Jacksonian Democrat. :( )

BTW, if there was no New Deal there would not be the Great Depression because it would just be a regular depression.

Wealthy people will not want to be considered a US Person for Tax Purpose. It is the worst deal in the world.

They can just retire to London or Monte Carlo with a much better tax plan.

You are thinking of billionaires.

Think millionaires with families. In unstable countries.

At this point I wish the government would nationalize the banks. At least I have some say when I go to vote on who runs it. Now they just steal money from us and give it away to the f*cked banksters.

If we can just wipe out the monopoly money, certainty will again return to the market and allow a recovery. I have lots of cash on the sidelines that I don't dare put at risk because the game is so rigged against the people with no power. Would you want to risk your money when the rules are different for the "elite" people?

Think millionaires with families. In unstable countries.

They can already come in by starting businesses and creating employment. Isn't that more productive?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EB-5_visa

Neutron,

Totally agree. Unlike Bush/Paulson, I think we can count on Obama/XYZ to insist on getting the proper valuation when buying common stock on behalf of the taxpayer.

The value gotten will be the real test of Obama.

The only proper valution for the government to buy common stock is $0.00 per share. Not a penny more.

Peter P, I agree but that is not what we have. Would you rather take all the the whole pie or let them(banksters) keep it and take your money?

At this point I would just be happy to know all the bank shareholders were wiped out.

kewp Says:
Investment in real estate in US guarantees green card.

This is not new - the 'investor category' has been around for decades. The nominal amount to be invested is $1M, but it turns out that you can invest less than that up-front, if you can show job-creation as a result of your investment.

As for wealthy refugees coming here, I don't know if that will work. The US has usually been a destination for people who want to work a job, but not a very attractive domicile for the idle rich.

s/common stock/preferred stock/gi

Not good at the details today.

Actually even the millionaires in unstable countries are ditching the US as a destination, precisely because of global taxation. The US is the only country on earth that taxes its citizens and residents globally regardless of their current abode.

The private banking branches in Asia used to have the US as the top destination for the multi-millionaires from developing and unstable countries, since these branches offer passport acquisition as a part of the wealth management plan. US has been out of favor compared to Canada and Australia, which do not tax their citizens globally. Most of these rich people just want a passport as a backup, but they prefer living in places they are familiar with, and most importantly, where they have connections to continue raking in. After the financial crisis, there have been quite a few high profile rich Asians giving up their citizenship to cut their loss on taxes.

The US passport also requires 5-yr residency, which sucks for those who are here purely for the purpose passport acquisition. Canada and Australia are both 2 years shorter, and once you acquire the passports, you can go right back to your home country digging gold without paying the Aussie or Canadian government a cent. It is also much easier for these people to shield their asset from other countries than from the all-mighty IRS.

The current investor category has different investment thresholds for different states depending on their popularity. More compromising destinations like AL, AR has a threshold of only $500K. $1M is in fact not enough for California because your business plan will have to be more beefed up.

It is also not so easy, you will have to provide proof of 5 continuous years of employing at least 5-10 FT American citizens or PRs. One may end up putting in more than $1M as initially committed just to keep the business going.

I doubt if $1M housing investment will be enough, because idle investment immigration usually calls for a much higher $ amount than active investment immigration (entrepreneurship). I am more inclined to think that if there is such a thing, the threshold is likely to be at least 2 houses of $2M worth. The government wants to make sure that there is no easy way out for you, you have to buy investment houses, not just primary residence, putting your fund at a bigger risk to "buy" the US passport.

My point is that unrest abroad may entice foreign interests to move businesses here.

That is all.

At this point I wish the government would nationalize the banks. At least I have some say when I go to vote on who runs it. Now they just steal money from us and give it away to the f*cked banksters.

Given that our banking system is insolvent, this is an almost certainty.

However, should this come to pass, hyper-inflation will be a serious risk. There will no longer be any safeguards preventing heli-Ben from firing up the printing presses.

Chipmaker Maxim Integrated Products Inc. has announced the closing of a factory in Dallas, which will result in 172 job cuts.

Sunnyvale-based Maxim Integrated/Dallas Semiconductor notified the Texas Workforce Commission that the company has initiated a plant closing at its Dallas facility at 4401 S. Beltwood Pkwy. in Dallas.

The letter indicates that 167 employees on the manufacturing side will lose their jobs, in addition to five other employees who work in administrative or other positions.

Maxim Integrated purchased Dallas Semiconductor back in 2001.

In the layoff announcement, Maxim (NASDAQ:MXIM) tells the Workforce Commission that employees were notified on Jan. 19. The announcement says the first round of cuts will take place on or about March 20, with additional cuts to take place in June.

SAN CARLOS, California — Before the economic meltdown, Tesla Motors had ambitious plans to build an electric-car factory in Silicon Valley. But it has shifted gears, saying now that it will find an abandoned factory to help it win a low-cost federal loan.

The $450 million that Tesla hopes to get from government loan programs means it would go in the direction of "retrofitting existing buildings rather than constructing new ones," according to a report in the local San Jose Mercury News.

Tesla is in competition with other automakers for low-interest loans from the U.S. Department of Energy. That federal agency has funds available to develop so-called "brownfield" sites — factories that are no longer in use.

The AFP news service reported on Friday that Tesla is in "late stage" negotiations with another site for its Model S plant and expects to begin production in 2011 as originally planned.

The Model S is a five-passenger sedan run by a lithium-ion battery pack. The Model S is expected to be priced around $60,000.

Based on feedback from Patrick.net posters, we are deciding to postpone buying a home by 9 months. Will get back in the market on late October .... goodbye Kentwood Place ... goodbye Kristin Munday - (408) 973-1326