patrick.net

jojo says

Bill Clinton’s $80 Million Payday, or Why Politicians Don’t Care That Much About Reelection

Why would the pay him that much after he left office? The derivatives thing was superfluous as Glass Steagal didn't regulate derivatives anyway.

turtledove says

Where it went wrong is when we started treating corporations as people. And clearly, people who are funneling enormous donations through other channels as a way to provide more financial support than is allowed by law are part of the "cronies" and should be held accountable for the fraud they are committing

So criminals are "cronies"? The other rich folks are the smart ones?

I'm being serious here. I hear lots of people on pat.net throwing around the word crony but nobody can really tell me who they are or why they are categorized as such.

marcus says

God forbid, it might even mean that taxes should be higher (at least on upper increments of income). Gee, I wonder if there are any wealthy people, or very high income people that have a bias about progressive taxation ?

But the problem is that such things are proposed without any effort made to audit the particular budget. We've all heard the jokes about $300 wrenches and $1200 toilet seats. No credible effort is made to identify waste. The answer is always to just throw more money at it.

Now this is an anecdotal example, but it illustrates precisely what I'm talking about. For about a year, we worked in a high-needs area in North Carolina providing medical care. By high needs, I mean that 80% of the patients were on Medicaid. I couldn't believe how many people were on Medicaid who, under no circumstances, should be been. There were working professionals presenting NC Medicaid cards! It was crazy and, unfortunately, too prevalent.

Using this example, is it really so unreasonable to ask that NC Medicaid fix their gaping loopholes? Do they have no responsibility to the tax payers to make sure that the tax money is well spent. I'm not against Medicaid. I'm against unchecked abuse. I see that as waste, and as a stakeholder of the system, I have every right to demand that they fix problems instead of just asking for more money -- and pretending that the waste doesn't exist.

The sad thing I learned from that experience is that the very people who need the program are the ones least likely to know how to take advantage of it. I spent a lot of time helping patients fill out their Medicaid paperwork and gather the appropriate documents. I was happy to do it... To make someone less worried about how she was going to pay for her own medical care. But when I see a PhD biologist or an OBGyn present a Medicaid card, I get a little pissed that I'm paying into a system that has so little accountability.

Bellingham Bill says

where dozens of Japanese manufacturers became household words in the US due to their rather awesome products that we couldn't get enough of.

product dumping... selling products below the cost to manufacture to
drive out competition and capture market share ! it wasnt only the US, but Europe, South Ameria and other parts of Asia... THEY went after the whole Enchilada with the Works...

tatupu70 says

So criminals are "cronies"? The other rich folks are the smart ones?

I'm being serious here. I hear lots of people on pat.net throwing around the word crony but nobody can really tell me who they are or why they are categorized as such.

Here's how I see it. Crony means friend. Crony capitalists use their relationships (or friends) with other businesses and government officials to advance their agenda, even when that agenda is harmful to everyone else living in that economy. Crony capitalists use their influence with their friends to enrich themselves at the expense of almost everyone else. The cronies (friends) are all those who participate in this process of using regulation/legislation/unfair business practices (b2b) as a means for private profit.

turtledove says

Crony capitalists use their relationships (or friends) with other businesses and government officials to advance their agenda, even when that agenda is harmful to everyone else living in that economy. Crony capitalists use their influence with their friends to enrich themselves at the expense of almost everyone else

OK, fair enough. But again I'll say that that definition pretty much includes every wealthy person in the US.

turtledove says

By 1934, NRA codes covered over 500 industries, which accounted for nearly 80 percent of private, nonagricultural employment."

Wow I did not know FDR had metastasized into that much of the US economy. When NIRA was found unconstitutional, must have been when FDR threatened to pack the court.

It is laughable, the hubris required to think that anyone could think they could tell people what they need through micromanaging. I guess you get so much sunshine blown up your ass that you think you "know best", and have the same regard for people that you would for a fish?

Even at that he did not allow collective bargaining for public employees. But this did not stop Jerry Brown...

I went to school on that post.

SoftShell says

By this logic any country who has troops stationed anywhere other than there own cohntry regardless whether the host country approved it deserves to have three thousand of its citizens slaughtered and have multimillion dollar buildings toppled.

I take it you hated Zero Dark Thirty...

By what logic? I said bin laden was provoked by US troops stationed in Saudi Arabia. Simple atatement. How you managed to jump to any country having troops in any other country is a deep mystery. Project much?

tatupu70 says

OK, fair enough. But again I'll say that that definition pretty much includes every wealthy person in the US.

Well, not really... It lacks the air of pushing legal limits. Cronies, for example, might use their government friends to legalize the transfer of wealth from government programs to a purpose unintended by the government program. Technically legal because they got their friends to make it so, but shady to any reasonable person.

Here I go with another anecdote. My uncle is a first generation Italian-American. After serving in the military, he was a construction worker building houses. When he had enough money, he bought two lots. He built one house on one lot and he and his family moved in. Then, he would build another house on the other lot. He would then sell both. This continued and his projects grew in scope over the years. It took him a long time, but by the time he was 50, he was a very rich guy.

Now he wasn't book smart. He didn't have friends in high places. I doubt he watches much news or pays too much attention to politics. But every line on his 80-year-old weather beaten face demonstrates the effort he put in to building what he has.

indigenous says

tatupu70 says

-I believe in looking at history with an open mind

When ever I hear this I know that this is the last thing you are doing.

tatupu70 says

You cannot look at history because it always disagrees with your religion. Therefore you pretend that it's specious and that all data is incorrect.

The complete opposite as you who think you are Looking when you look at graphs and arithmetic. This is where the bulk of your assertions come from, but they do not parallel reality.

tatupu70 says

You are very much like an ostrich with his head in the sand...

Projecting

Wow, a new record even for disingenuous, he found three different ways to say " I know you are, but what am I" all in one comment.

turtledove says

But the problem is that such things are proposed without any effort made to audit the particular budget. We've all heard the jokes about $300 wrenches and $1200 toilet seats. No credible effort is made to identify waste. The answer is always to just throw more money at it.

Really ? Those classic examples, are I think ways that the defense dept. hid the way some money was spent. Who knows. But you know that they have gotten after it.

You don't think governments have been belt tightening and finding ways to cut costs in the past 5 years ?

turtledove says

I'm not against Medicaid. I'm against unchecked abuse. I see that as waste, and as a stakeholder of the system, I have every right to demand that they fix problems instead of just asking for more money -- and pretending that the waste doesn't exist.

So is it like this ?

I'm all for government spending, if only it could be done right. But since it can't be done right, I'm against it ?

I appreciate wanting to fix things. But this isn't the attitude that republicans take. (you should read this thread - if you want to understand your party better http://patrick.net/?p=1239471).

Why don't we hear republicans saying lets work together to fix the flaws in Obamacare ? Instead they fight for regime change, saying it's enitrely evil. Because if they helped make it work, the enemy (commie democrats) might get some credit.

I digress, but your reasoning is typical. You're just looking for a reason to be against sufficient taxation.

Trust me, if upper increments of income were taxed half as high as they were in the 60s, all the powerful people would be watching eachother to make sure they didn't take advantage, and the kind of auditing and watching of spending you were talking about would occur.

THe way it is now though, we don't pay for our spending with taxes. We borrow. And the powerful don't begrudge the other guy from getting his cut, as long as they get theirs.

tatupu70 says

I'm being serious here. I hear lots of people on pat.net throwing around the word crony but nobody can really tell me who they are or why they are categorized as such.

No, it has been explained to you thousands of times, you just don't want to comprehend. What part of crony capitalism don't you get? Buffet's backdoor deals, the TBTF bailouts, nobody at JPM and GS prosecuted for clear fraud, Corzine losing half a billion in - by law untouchable - customer funds yet roaming free? The reo-to-rental program, the farmer's subsidies, the defense contractors shitting all over Iraq, the Fed printing money like no tomorrow and buying MBS, the fact that a hospital can charge $80000 for an antidote worth $750 on the free market without having to disclose the costs upfront and without anybody going to jail for usury? Undeclared wars, NSA spying? It was always bad, but the last two administrations have been trying to take the record and when this one is done in 2016 they will take the trophy of most corrupt administration from Dubya. Next time you keep asking that question for the umpteenth time, please refer to this thread.

turtledove says

He would then sell both. This continued and his projects grew in scope over the years. It took him a long time, but by the time he was 50, he was a very rich guy.

I think we're talking about different kinds of rich there. But even so, I would wager that he had occasion to push the limits with the local inspectors back in his day...

marcus says

Wow, a new record even for disingenuous, he found three different ways to say " I know you are, but what am I" all in one comment.

That is what you got out of that, good thing you work for the government, you sure as fuck could not get a job in the private sector.

mell says

No, it has been explained to you thousands of times, you just don't want to comprehend

No--I understand what you think. But your reasoning is flawed. Every law that passes has some winners and some losers. Just because a law passes that benefits you, doesn't mean you are the reason it passed or that something nefarious was involved. What if I simply accurately predicted how things would turn out because I understand how/why congressmen think and vote and planned accordingly. How can you tell the difference??
mell says

Corzine losing half a billion in - by law untouchable - customer funds yet roaming free? The reo-to-rental program, the farmer's subsidies, the defense contractors shitting all over Iraq, the Fed printing money like no tomorrow and buying MBS, the fact that a hospital can charge $80000 for an antidote worth $750 on the free market without having to disclose the costs upfront and without anybody going to jail for usury? Undeclared wars, NSA spying?

So now anything you disagree with is "cronyism?" That's about what I thought.

tatupu70 says

Every law that passes has some winners and some losers.

If you opened a money management business tomorrow and then "lost" your clients monies you would be in jail in no time. This is a law. What happened under this administration was not only a set of unfortunate new laws and regulations boosting crony capitalism, what also happened was selective abandonment of the rule of law. There is no excuse for this and if Dems and Repubs weren't the same this administration would have been impeached years ago as would have been W. This is why I think the current quagmire in the Republican party could have them realize that they cannot win without resurrecting Libertarian principles and break with the establishment. They actually have a much better chance of reformation due to their current incongruent state than the Democrats who have almost "solidified" in their corruptive policies.

mell says

If you opened a money management business tomorrow and then "lost" your clients monies you would be in jail in no time.

What the hell are you talking about. It's not against the law to lose clients money. Where the eff did you get that idea???

mell says

What happened under this administration was not only a set of unfortunate new laws and regulations boosting crony capitalism, what also happened was selective abandonment of the rule of law.

Wow--it never ceases to amaze me how many armchair quarterbacks there are here. You THINK that fraud was committed. I probably agree. But all that matters is what you can prove in a court of law. And you don't know that.

I'm assuming that's what you are referencing--no criminal action against Wall St. What other abandonment was there?

tatupu70 says

mell says

If you opened a money management business tomorrow and then "lost" your clients monies you would be in jail in no time.

What the hell are you talking about. It's not against the law to lose clients money. Where the eff did you get that idea???

Better educate yourself, it is illegal to use segregated customer accounts for corporate purposes (in this case to cover the companies investment losses and looming bankruptcy), and that's what happened. The fact that he is not in jail is grounds for impeachment. But then again, he is/was a big time Obama campaign supporter. Any questions?

mell says

Better educate yourself, it is illegal to use segregated customer accounts for corporate purposes (in this case to cover the companies investment losses and looming bankruptcy), and that's what happened

Maybe--but that's not what you said.

mell says

The fact that he is not in jail is grounds for impeachment. But then again, he is/was a big time Obama campaign supporter. Any questions?

Sure--can you share the proof that he broke the law. And that his connection to Obama is/was the reason he wasn't prosecuted?

Any answers?

tatupu70 says

mell says

The fact that he is not in jail is grounds for impeachment. But then again, he is/was a big time Obama campaign supporter. Any questions?

Sure--can you share the proof that he broke the law. And that his connection to Obama is/was the reason he wasn't prosecuted?

Any answers?

Absolutely - there is an email stating Corzine directing that transfer. The only defense he had was pleading "da fif" and saying that it was not customer money. But the money was missing (and not traceable to investment losses), that's a fact and if you had done that you'd be sent to jail for a long long time. That is on par with W pardoning scooter "treason" libby on his last day (though one could argue that at least libby was prosecuted and convicted and then pardoned which is fucked up but unfortunately not against the law).

mell says

Absolutely - there is an email stating Corzine directing that transfer

link? And not to a long story detailing the circumstantial evidence against Corzine-please link to the damning email.