patrick.net

turtledove says

racism, sexism, or homophobia

Alas, I think equality is the wrong approach. The very essence of diversity is beautiful. In case of homosexuality, a conservative ought to embrace it out of the love for personal freedom and choice.

Peter P says

To end bigotry, we must stop talking about tolerance and start celebrating differences.

For me, celebrating differences makes sense for different cultures, for the other gender, for other age groups or professions, ideally even for differences of opinion (I'm not always good at that if I think the other opinion is based on ignorance or hate).

But tolerance is the right word for me regarding homosexuality. It's a sign of a problem of mine maybe, but tolerating,.. that is not objecting to their existence, or to their practices and believing that they have rights regarding marriage, and the right to not be discriminated against, is as far as I can go.

I'm not going to celebrate their gayness. But that's just me.

Peter P says

turtledove says

racism, sexism, or homophobia

Alas, I think equality is the wrong approach. The very essence of diversity is beautiful. In case of homosexuality, a conservative ought to embrace it out of the love for personal freedom and choice.

I guess when I think about equality, I don't think of it as suppressing others' differences. I think of it more as those differences don't matter with respect to how a person is treated within our society. I think that rewards, for example, should be based on performance. One's skin color, sex, or sexual orientation should have no bearing on the reward itself. Two people performing the exact same job should receive the same pay. Conversely, two people who aren't performing the same job shouldn't receive the same pay because it's politically incorrect to point out an objectively provable deficiency.

I too agree that racism, ignorance and so on are not exclusive to the right. As Turtledove mentioned I too was rather amazed at the trash being spewed by one of our resident left-wingers in last week's sexist posts. So it goes both ways.

Whether right or left, racism, sexism, homophobia and overall xenophobia is the worst human flaw. Its what has led to the majority of conflicts in the world.

I grew up in a very rural and homogenous area. Racism and xenophobia were fairly common. The reasons were the same as everywhere: Lack of exposure and experience with other cultures and people. Due to this lack of understanding the knee-jerk reaction is to simply reject the unknown and do so by making up bullshit about either a group of people or culture they know nothing about.

marcus says

I'm not going to celebrate their gayness. But that's just me.

That is fine too. I respect your opinion.

turtledove says

I guess when I think about equality, I don't think of it as suppressing others' differences. I think of it more as those differences don't matter with respect to how a person is treated within our society. I think that rewards, for example, should be based on performance. One's skin color, sex, or sexual orientation should have no bearing on the reward itself. Two people performing the exact same job should receive the same pay. Conversely, two people who aren't performing the same job shouldn't receive the same pay because it's politically incorrect to point out an objectively provable deficiency.

It is just that TOLERANCE has a negative connotation. CELEBRATION is more positive. It makes a difference in our mind.

edvard2 says

I grew up in a very rural and homogenous area. Racism and xenophobia were fairly common. The reasons were the same as everywhere: Lack of exposure and experience with other cultures and people.

Also, people TRY to be "moral" social animals. As a result, we are prone to group think.

If we become more selfish, there will be no place for prejudice. It will be either me, or not me.

turtledove says

Two people performing the exact same job should receive the same pay. C

That is in an utopian world. in the real world, there are other skills-kissing ass, willing to bob your head in endless meeting, pretending your boss' new idea is the next best thing to quantum physics etc etc. That person ought to receive more money-for willing to crush his soul that much. Then of course there are other situations-a young dude/dudette may perform an awesome job, but the senior good for nothing may outrank him etc etc. Which is why I am not in favor of mandates. The cream will always rise to the top-be that woman/man/gay/trangender/multiracial etc. back in the day-they could not-because laws specifically did not allow them to. Women could not even vote and blacks were property. Those things have changed -great. but mandating someone needs the same pay, just because they are a different gender-when people like meg Whitman have become billionaires on their own-that is just odd.

turtledove says

Two people performing the exact same job should receive the same pay.

The free market can sort this out. But we must all learn to love ourselves above all else. Gender biases came from people trying to do the "right" things.

"I just read the posts and comment. When someone says " Unfortunately, it doesn't seem limited to political affiliation", I interpret that to mean that they wish it was limited to political affiliation. Omitting the word "unfortunately" would have given the sentence a completely different meaning to me..Maybe I'm ignorant and need some help with english interpretation."

It would be easier if we could say that all bigots can be found under a particular affiliation, but as we've both pointed out, it doesn't work that way. I will try to be more clear in the future.

turtledove says

It would be easier if we could say that all bigots can be found under a particular affiliation, but as we've both pointed out, it doesn't work that way. I will try to be more clear in the future.

Bigots will be bigots, just like boys will be boys.

Also, labels are to be blamed.

"Once you label me you negate me."

-- Søren Kierkegaard

Peter P says

turtledove says

It would be easier if we could say that all bigots can be found under a particular affiliation, but as we've both pointed out, it doesn't work that way. I will try to be more clear in the future.

Bigots will be bigots, just like boys will be boys.

Also, labels are to be blamed.

"Once you label me you negate me."

-- Søren Kierkegaard

Kirkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a true masterpiece.

mell says

Kirkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a true masterpiece.

I like both Kirkegaard and Nietzsche. Very different, yet very similar.

It would be interesting if the two actually met.

Peter P says

turtledove says

Two people performing the exact same job should receive the same pay.

The free market can sort this out. But we must all learn to love ourselves above all else. Gender biases came from people trying to do the "right" things.

I have been in business 20 years, the amount of pay gap I have observed is exactly ZERO, across races and genders. And that's because it doesn't exist.

Peter P says

mell says

Kirkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a true masterpiece.

I like both Kirkegaard and Nietzsche. Very different, yet very similar.

It would be interesting if the two actually met.

Me too, both favorites. I like Epikur as well, a more recent would be Peter Sloterdijk.

mell says

I have been in business 20 years, the amount of pay gap I have observed is exactly ZERO, across races and genders. And that;s because it doesn't exist.

A lot of the perceived gaps come from comparisons across occupational/functional groups.

mell says

Peter P says

mell says

Kirkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a true masterpiece.

I like both Kirkegaard and Nietzsche. Very different, yet very similar.

It would be interesting if the two actually met.

Me too, both favorites. I like Epikur as well, a more recent would be Peter Sloterdijk.

Now I just pay attention to Nassim Taleb.

As some might guess I have strong feelings about this and I am certain it came from my personal experiences. Like I said I came from a rural area where xenophobia was more prominent. I'm not saying EVERYONE there were totally intolerant bigots. But it was definitely noticeable. I also had little experience with anyone else other than white, scotch-irish Southerners.

After moving first to the east coast and then to California I met people from all over. I worked with a guy who was gay and we became good friends as we still are to this day. I worked my first job at a lumber yard with Hispanics. In tech I work with people literally from everywhere.

My experience has shown me that we're all basically trying to do the same thing. Are there differences? Yes. But so what. We're also all different as well.

But after having those experiences I've had, whenever I hear people making anti-gay or racist or otherwise comments of that nature I feel sorry for them. They're only doing themselves a disservice by limiting their understanding of their world. That's a shame.

Peter P says

mell says

Peter P says

mell says

Kirkegaard's Fear and Trembling is a true masterpiece.

I like both Kirkegaard and Nietzsche. Very different, yet very similar.

It would be interesting if the two actually met.

Me too, both favorites. I like Epikur as well, a more recent would be Peter Sloterdijk.

Now I just pay attention to Nassim Taleb.

Yes, have been following Taleb for quite a while. Antifragile is on my list, have only read certain chapters so far. Great mind.

edvard2 says

But after having those experiences I've had, whenever I hear people making anti-gay or racist or otherwise comments of that nature I feel sorry for them. They're only doing themselves a disservice by limiting their understanding of their world. That's a shame.

Well said.

mell says

Yes, have been following Taleb for quite a while. Antifragile is on my list, have only read certain chapters so far. Great mind.

Have you read The Bed of Procrustes? It is a gem. Should not take you more than one hour. But you will read it over and over again.

turtledove says

One's skin color, sex, or sexual orientation should have no bearing on the reward itself.

It works like that until the left starts using sexual orientation, or skin color as basis for special treatment while pandering in elections.

FortWayne says

turtledove says

One's skin color, sex, or sexual orientation should have no bearing on the reward itself.

It works like that until the left stops using sexual orientation, or skin color as basis for special treatment.

Yes, they think collectives actions should be used to right collective wrongs. Like it's going to work.

Bigotry will end when we treat individuals as individuals.

Peter P says

Yes, they think collectives actions should be used to right collective wrongs. Like it's going to work.

Bigotry will end when we treat individuals as individuals.

Left likes to play the race card, they overplayed it so much that people like you bought into it and think everyone around is a total racist out to get everyone who is not white.

You people get suckered pretty easily. Self loathing white liberals are the funniest group of all.

FortWayne says

Left likes to play the race card, they overplayed it so much that people like you bought into it and think everyone around is a total racist out to get everyone who is not white.

Everyone likes to play vicim, not just the left. Humans like the feeling of righteousness. In some case this even detracts their quest for self-interest. This is the sad part.

Peter P says

Everyone likes to play vicim, not just the left. Humans like the feeling of righteousness. In some case this even detracts their quest for self-interest. This is the sad part.

I agree with everything you said except the first word.

komputodo says

I agree with everything you said except the first word.

Fine, I am prone to exaggeration.

komputodo says

That is true..I think we all seek shelter, food, decent health and someone to love.

But when you made friends with the hispanics and your gay friend, were your friendships strong enough that you guys could kid each other about your differences?

Did we kid each other? Oh hell yeah we did. But there's a big difference between kidding and simply being outright mean.

FortWayne says

Left likes to play the race card, they overplayed it so much that people like you bought into it and think everyone around is a total racist out to get everyone who is not white.

You people get suckered pretty easily. Self loathing white liberals are the funniest group of all.

What does "race card" have to do with any of this? Simply put, I don't care if someone is a right or left leaning fringy loon: If Anyone- regardless of political stripe- makes some jackass comment then I'm going to call them out on it. Simple as that.

with that mean lookin balloon face you wouldn't celebrate a bi-annual nocturnal emission...

marcus says

I'm not going to celebrate their gayness. But that's just me.

I do that at night when the beangas expands my waist a couple inches to a 38...

Strategist says

You can put people on ignore. How about putting selected threads on "ignore" too.

@Patrick

Peter P says

A lot of the perceived gaps come from comparisons across occupational/functional groups.

I've seen the opposite proven. That is, men in women-dominated fields still receive more for the same job.

edvard2 says

What does "race card" have to do with any of this? Simply put, I don't care if someone is a right or left leaning fringy loon: If Anyone- regardless of political stripe- makes some jackass comment then I'm going to call them out on it. Simple as that.

Try this out of the world leftist rant from Dan earlier in this thread. He is making his own code language now even. What will the left make up next?

Dan8267 says

By the way, thug is now code for "nigger". It's the socially acceptable way of saying that while trying not to appear racist. I guess the conservatives didn't think we could break their code.

CL says

I've seen the opposite proven. That is, men in women-dominated fields still receive more for the same job.

I have never seen a man do well as a waiter at Hooters. Was that too sexist?

turtledove says

It would be easier if we could say that all bigots can be found under a particular affiliation

The one thing I tire of is the notion of "a pox on both your houses". This is a subtle rhetorical trick that people do when faced with the reality that the party or ideology they have adhered to is flawed.

Fascism is a rightwing ideology. Nazis, no matter what conservatives say, is a conservative ideology. Mein Kampf explicitly condemned liberals, and fascism explicitly is anti-communist, anti-egalitarian, pro-business and jingoistic.

Communists, Catholics and others have historically aligned to fight AGAINST racism, sexism and other injustices. They protest together. They fought side-by-side for civil rights in the 60s. It is better to be born black in Cuba than in most of America. Blacks have a higher literacy rate in Cuba than in the US. These philosophies were also condemned by the fascists and Nazis.

Are these commonalities a coincidence?

There are douches on both sides, no question. But I think the temptation is to say "everyone does it!", which has the same effect "we report, you decide" does. Equivocation is insidious and prevents us from seeing clearly, and acting accordingly.

FortWayne says

Try this out of the world leftist rant from Dan earlier in this thread. He is making his own code language now even. What will the left make up next?

You seem rather good at avoiding answering questions directed at you and you also fail at staying on topic. It seems to me your biggest concern is making sure to throw out a few random supposed insults against the left.

So let's try this again and this time try and answer the question. Specifically I asked you what "Race card" has to do with this subject? We were talking about racism, sexism, homophobia and xenophobia in general and as seen, many people here were talking about the fact that no, those sorts of negative attitudes aren't expressly voiced just by the right but the left as well.

As also mentioned there has been a rash of racist, sexist, xenophobic posts made on this site which NOBODY asked for. Its really that fucking simple: That sort of trash has no place anywhere.

CL says

Fascism is a rightwing ideology. Nazis, no matter what conservatives say, is a conservative ideology. Mein Kampf explicitly condemned liberals, and fascism explicitly is anti-communist, anti-egalitarian, pro-business and jingoistic.

Couldn't disagree more. Some of the bloodiest regimes and movements were labeled "socialist" or "communists", and the Nazis were formally "left", but in reality neither left nor right. And if you look to Stalin, there were no notable differences between what you would call far-right and far-left. I would actually make the pitch that the original liberal movement came from the upper to upper middle-class, and thus rooted out of a "conservative" bourgeoisie. Kurt Schumacher got it right with his famous quote describing communists as red-painted Nazis.

edvard2 says

So let's try this again and this time try and answer the question. Specifically I asked you what "Race card" has to do with this subject?

Go reread what I posted again, and you'll have your answer. And it was done by someone on the left, your comrade Dan.

FortWayne says

I have never seen a man do well as a waiter at Hooters. Was that too sexist?

I would wager you've never seen a male waiter at Hooters. In any case, all you illustrated was that a workplace dependent on the objectification of WOMEN will, in fact, objectify women. I've never seen a female Chippendale, either, although I'll admit I haven't looked for either anomaly.

But, if the rightwing argument is that women simply choose low paying professions, then with the disparity even in "their house"? Hmmm?

Do you not believe that people in power, whether here in white, male Christiandom, or in the top castes in India, etc. don't intend to maintain their privilege, directly or indirectly? That there is no hiring bias?

Imagine a world where Black Jewish Gay people dominated the country's power structure. Fortwayne gets paid less. He must have not negotiated properly, I reckon.

FortWayne says

Go reread what I posted again, and you'll have your answer. And it was done by someone on the left, your comrade Dan.

Do you understand how a conversation works? I asked you a question last night. You did not answer the question. What Dan said has nothing to do with what I asked. So answer the question.

FortWayne says

Try this out of the world leftist rant from Dan earlier in this thread. He is making his own code language now even. What will the left make up next?

Dan8267 says

By the way, thug is now code for "nigger". It's the socially acceptable way of saying that while trying not to appear racist. I guess the conservatives didn't think we could break their code.

Really, I'm making shit up? Well, not according to Google's autocomplete.

Or Time Magazine

Care to rescind your statement, or would you prefer to double down on stupidity?

By the way, only right-wing nutjobs call me a leftist. Also, only left-wing nutjobs call me right-wing.