patrick.net

casandra says

oh, my 600 lb grandson has not worked since the age of 22 and that was many years ago. i figured his entitlements. free food, disability, free rent, discounted phone/car insurance/gas and electric/bus pass/medical, and figured in he pays no taxes. he lives like someone making 80 thousand a year before taxes. what a nice life.

You must be so proud?

marcus says

Actually, in my opinion free college with his proposal pays for itself. We're just talking about tuition at junior colleges. It's pretty hard to imagine that the cost of this would not come back to the government in the form of tax revenues later.

The reality is that it boils down to are you a good student or not? If not then it is a waste of money.

Secondly the stats on community college graduates are that only about 30% of them graduate with a 2 yr degree. And the income of those graduates is only marginally higher than high school graduates.

Opinions are as ubiquitous as assholes...

indigenous says

Secondly the stats on community college graduates are that only about 30% of them graduate with a 2 yr degree. And the income of those graduates is only marginally higher than high school graduates.

Do those stats include those that go on to complete four year degrees ?

Please supply your sources.

Call it Crazy says

I'd like to see you prove that!

I didn't say I could prove it. But there are countless studies we have all seen that say income levels correlate with how much education a person has.

And as I said, some of these kids are really getting up to where they have the equivalent of a decent high school education. Why not look up the statistics on incomes of people who completed high school versus those that haven't ?

humanity says

Do those stats include those that go on to complete four year degrees ?

Please supply your sources.

Don't know, if only 30% IIRC graduate then what percentage get through a 4yr school, 15%

The point is that O's idea of free community college is once again crap

At 2:54

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LS7yxuqGTU

Anyone ever wonder why 92 million Americans currently don't work despite help wanted signs everywhere?

carrieon says

Anyone ever wonder why 92 million Americans currently don't work despite help wanted signs everywhere?

Help wanted signs are where?

CL says

Anyone ever wonder why 92 million Americans currently don't work despite help wanted signs everywhere?

Help wanted signs are where?

Pretty much anywhere for the rare person today who will drive around, look and or ask.

I guess 34 years of tax cuts haven't trickled down yet.

Give it time.

I like the idea of free college, but they should just tax everyone except for me to pay for it, I'm special. Isn't that how it should work?

carrieon says

Anyone ever wonder why 92 million Americans currently don't work despite help wanted signs everywhere?

Minimum wage wanted help signs. Now when I was young, our generation was happy for any work we got. But I see new kids, they don't want to sweat or labor all that much. They see Mexicans work, and they think all manual work is demeaning unless you Mexican. Our culture got all messed up lately.

FortWayne says

Minimum wage wanted help signs. Now when I was young, our generation was happy for any work we got.

When I was young, you'd generally see folks with brownish skin digging the ditches while someone with light skin was overseeing them.

About those 92 million Americans, a hilarious claim. If there were that many "young people looking for work" I'd be aghast. But there aren't. Lots of people are not working because they are RETIRED. Or stay at home Moms, want to force them into the job market? I have a friend a bit older that can't lift anything of consequence anymore, his back is DONE for. The actual figure for unemployed people who are employable and seeking employment is much much lower.

FortWayne says

Now when I was young, our generation was happy for any work we got.

I'll bet you walked to school barefoot in the snow uphill both directions also.

lostand confused says

Blame the 1% for everything and slowly that attitude will grow to include any middle class who is successful and lives without a handout.

You're losing it man. Get a grip.

lostand confused says

It is inevitable. Blame the 1% for everything and slowly that attitude will grow to include any middle class who is successful and lives without a handout.

It's like when I started using slippery-slope arguments. Soon I was brushing and flossing less. Then I was stiffing people on the check at group restaurant outings. Then I became impolite. Which progressed, naturally, to double parking, and then petty theft. Then arson, which got boring, so I started doing rapes. Now I kill people and steal anything that isn't nailed down, and I fully intend to overthrow the government, start a land war on three continents (Asia is a must) and become the greatest mass murderer history has ever known!

And when that's settled, I'll move on to CENTRAL BANKING!

Bwahahahahaha!

marcus says

lostand confused says

Blame the 1% for everything and slowly that attitude will grow to include any middle class who is successful and lives without a handout.

You're losing it man. Get a grip.

Says the one trick pony. Can't handle any criticism of the anointed one??

lostand confused says

Says the one trick pony. Can't handle any criticism of the anointed one??

Why is it that you think people who recognize wealth disparity as an issue facing our current society "hate the 1%"?

casandra says

don't know why you all criticize those that don't work, they are making more money than those that work. Now in california you even get 80 bucks a month for each kid under the age of 2 for diapers. you don't need money for anything anymore, plus you get a grip of cash for 250 dollar sneakers, movies, the best cell phones.

oh, my 600 lb grandson has not worked since the age of 22 and that was many years ago. i figured his entitlements. free food, disability, free rent, discounted phone/car insurance/gas and electric/bus pass/medical, and figured in he pays no taxes. he lives like someone making 80 thousand a year before taxes. what a nice life.

Poor baby. How unfortunate to be born with a thyroid condition

tatupu70 says

lostand confused says

Says the one trick pony. Can't handle any criticism of the anointed one??

Why is it that you think people who recognize wealth disparity as an issue facing our current society "hate the 1%"?

Hating the 1% has been a major theme in the far left of our country. That is going to spread-from 1% to the 40% is not a stretch. Especially when larger and larger chunks of the population get used to getting money for doing nothing. Just as some farms get money for not planting crops.

Getting money from rich folks to pay for bums or as Obozo is already doing -expanding the tax base to include middle income folks-people who have good insurance plans through work , medical devices and now his proposal to tax college plans - is not how you reduce income inequality.

Obozo is already negotiating the TPP and that will expand the wealth gap even further-by making our workers compete directly with the likes of Vietnam. He is being extremely dishonest-by projecting to be some messiah of the middle class-when all he is doing is serving his corporate masters and giving handouts to the poor by squeezing everybody else.

Inequality is already there-but this whole theme of the 1% has been around for too long. They are not the cause, but the symptom. When one can erect a factory in China/whatever hellhole , import goods with no barriers to entry and even get tax benefits for that-well factory owner will do just that. Once one does and undercuts the price-others will be forced to follow or shut down. The owners now are richer and the middle class former workers are now poorer-along with all the supporting industries/businesses. That is not something that the rich did-but the gubmnt -who is supposed to look out for all of us.

But there is Obozo signing in secret an even bigger free trade deal and in this case foreign corporations can sue local gubmnts for loss of revenue due to local laws-in a foreign tribunal. That is what the clown is negotiating and you think this won't add to income inequality, when we will be competing with hordes of Vietnamese workers. Nope-lets just raise taxes and give it to the bums/formerly productive workers. That will solve everything

carrieon says

CL says

Anyone ever wonder why 92 million Americans currently don't work despite help wanted signs everywhere?

Help wanted signs are where?

Pretty much anywhere for the rare person today who will drive around, look and or ask.

So we have surplus jobs in America that go unfilled? Because our benefits are so generous they won't take these good jobs?

Aren't you the same folks that say jobs are not being created, the ones that are are shitty, and the REAL unemployment numbers are much, much higher?

Call it Crazy says

Here's the TRUE view of Tat's socialist liberal utopia... If it was up to him, 100% of the population would be in the second column!!

No.

The politicians only need a simple majority to elect them. They also need the rest of us to pay off those voters.

Democrats and Republicans have that in common and just disagree over who gets the hand-outs and what minority gets squeezed.

43's middle-class tax cuts moved America's tax system from second place to most progressive (ratio of tax to income shares for the top earning decile) in the OECD 24 including Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, The Slovak Republic, Sweden, Switzerland, and The United Kingdom.

lostand confused says

Hating the 1% has been a major theme in the far left of our country.

See--that's where you're wrong. As others on here have pointed out, the 1% has many Dems in it. What the left hates is the current political policies that lead to increased wealth disparity.

lostand confused says

Inequality is already there-but this whole theme of the 1% has been around for too long.

Of course--there will always be inequality. But not at the current ridiculously high levels. It hasn't been this high since the late 1920s--and we all know how that ended.

lostand confused says

They are not the cause, but the symptom. When one can erect a factory in China/whatever hellhole , import goods with no barriers to entry and even get tax benefits for that-well factory owner will do just that. Once one does and undercuts the price-others will be forced to follow or shut down. The owners now are richer and the middle class former workers are now poorer-along with all the supporting industries/businesses. That is not something that the rich did-but the gubmnt -who is supposed to look out for all of us.

Of course. That's why we have to elect more liberals. Free trade is a VERY Republican ideal. Not exclusively, obviously, but if you look at who votes against the free trade deals, it's usually liberals.

So, you're basically arguing Obama isn't liberal enough.

drew_eckhardt says

43's middle-class tax cuts moved America's tax system from second place to most progressive (ratio of tax to income shares for the top earning decile) in the OECD 24 including Australia, Austria, Belgium, Canada, The Czech Republic, Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Iceland, Ireland, Italy, Japan, Korea, Luxembourg, The Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Poland, The Slovak Republic, Sweden, Switzerland, and The United Kingdom.

That's a symptom of income/wealth inequality--not tax structure.

When 1% of the people have 30% of the money, obviously most of the taxes MUST come from those people. You can't bleed a turnip.

lostand confused says

Hating the 1% has been a major theme in the far left of our country. That is going to spread-from 1% to the 40% is not a stretch.

YEs it is. It's an absurd stretch. IT's totally nonsensical gibberish.

The very fact that you would say something as stupid as "the far left: (that's my favorite part) "hates" the 1%, shows how out of touch you are, and paints you as a right wing defender of the unfair preferential treatment the 1% feels entitled to.

I don't hate the 1%. I just think they should be taxed more, as do some 1%ers.

Look, I guess in your warped view of reality I'm far left. But newsflash: I do not like the idea of taxing all college savings accounts. I have a big problem with it. Opening the subject for discussion though ? I don't have a problem with that. And yes, the idea that this is a slippery slope, to even consider it ? Wtf man ? Is your name Koch ?

MAybe even a far right wing defender of the interests of super-rich and corpations such as yourself can see that it's just one more tax break for some. For example, the 1% folks. They already get tax breaks on real estate, and on IRAs and 401Ks or other vehicles for which they can sock money away lowering their taxable income and which grow in value tax free. And even on their other capital gains, they are not taxed nearly as high as income.

The 529 savings accounts not only grow tax free, but the gains are not taxed when spent on college. This is quite a deal, and not something I would want to see taken away from the middle class. But the truth is, that for some, this is just another place to put money and have it grow tax free.

Within rich communities, the people that are set for life, even if they don't work ? For those people they or their parents can afford to put enough away for a child at the time of the childs birth that it will grow to more than pay for a 50K per year college funding.

THat's not who the 529 benefits were even intended for. So I think discussing taxing that growth for people with a net worth above a certain level makes a lot of sense. Maybe they could put the cut off at 1.5 million in net worth above housing equty or above 3 million including housing equity.

It's worth discussing.

marcus says

Hating the 1% has been a major theme in the far left of our country. That is going to spread-from 1% to the 40% is not a stretch.

YEs it is. IT's totally nonsensical gibberish.

The very fact that you would say something as stupid as "the far left: (that's my favorite part) "hates" the 1%, show how out of touch you are, and paints you as a right wing defender of the unfair preferential treatment the 1% feels entitled to.

I don't hate the 1%. I just think they should be taxed more, as do some 1%ers.

LOL, who was talking about you? But if the badge fits -LOL

WEll, there is no far left in this country, to speak of. So yes, as a typical Obama hater, who makes outlandish statements implying he is far left, and who talk about a slippery slope of what we should fear the far left doing, of course I assume you also place me in that non existent grouping.

Only a right wing moron who soaks up every stupid bit of propaganda from the far right (which very much does exist) could buy in to the idea that there even is a far left in this country (to speak of).

marcus says

WEll, there is no far left in this country, to speak of

marcus says

Only a right wing moron who soaks up every stupid bit of propaganda from the far right (which very much does exist) could buy in to the idea that there even is a far left in this country (to speak of).

Would this be you marcus??

tatupu70 says

When 1% of the people have 30% of the money, obviously most of the taxes MUST come from those people. You can't bleed a turnip.

1% of the people only have 18.7% of the income and it's not enough to make the rest of our lives better.

Increasing their effective tax rate to 90% (total, not marginal) and redistributing the excess among the rest of us wouldn't give each of us an extra $300 a month.

$1,555,701M income circa 2011 * (.9 - .235 current effective rate) / (.99 * 310M total population) = $3370 annually / 12 months = $281.

To really have an impact you have to reach much farther like they do elsewhere.

In the UK everyone pays a 20% VAT. People with over $48K USD in taxable income pay a 40% marginal tax rate, with no break for married filing jointly.

drew_eckhardt says

1% of the people only have 18.7% of the income and it's not enough to make the rest of our lives better.

What you're missing is, that it isn't a simple matter of redistributing income. It's putting the breaks on a current system that rapidly increases the gap between the obscenely wealthy and the regular working folks.

And that in turn has multiple bad affects. One of the worst is that it increases the political dysfunction in this country, as it becomes harder and harder to define what's best for us all. How do we figure out what's best for us all, and get what's best for us all, when the levers of government are controlled by an entitled super rich minority and corporations ?

lostand confused says

Would this be you marcus??

Keep in mind, I said there is no far left. I didn't say there is no constituancy for a far left if it did exist. What Bernie Sanders ? Maybe a few others.

You're doing a good job of living down to my perception of your feeble intelligence.

marcus says

drew_eckhardt says

1% of the people only have 18.7% of the income and it's not enough to make the rest of our lives better.

What you're missing is, that it isn't a simple matter of redistributing income. It's putting the breaks on a current system that rapidly increases the gap between the obscenely wealthy and the grunt workers.

I'm not missing anything, just ignoring the political spin and looking at the actual arithmetic which does not add up.

There are too few "obscenely wealthy" and too many "grunt workers" for the wealthy's share to make a real difference.

To use the common vilified CEO example -

McDonald's CEO took home $9.5M in 2013 which is a lot compared to a minimum wage worker's earnings; although divided by McDonald's 440,000 employees it's $22 a year. With half-time workers that's at most $0.02 an hour, and a 0.2% raise from the US Federal minimum wage.

It just doesn't matter.

And that in turn has multiple bad affects. One of the worst is that it increases the political dysfunction in this country, as it becomes harder and harder to define what's best for us all. How do we figure out what's best for us all, and get what's best for us all, when the levers of government are controlled by an entitled super rich majority and corporations ?

Regardless of what income share they retain, the corporations and wealthy are going to control our government as long as we have first-past-the-post elections with geographic districts making it impossible to incrementally move away from the status quo.

marcus says

lostand confused says

Would this be you marcus??

Keep in mind, I said there is no far left. I didn't say there is no constituancy for a far left if it did exist. What Bernie Sanders ? Maybe a few others.

You're doing a good job of living down to my perception of your feeble intelligence.

I really feel sorry for the kids you teach. This is why teachers and professors should have no tenure. Kids need people who can challenge them and allow them to think-not one dimensional automatons like you. A broken record will work just fine.

There should be hate crimes laws against criticizing the wealthy - they deserve our sympathy and prayers.

drew_eckhardt says

1% of the people only have 18.7% of the income and it's not enough to make the rest of our lives better.

I was talking wealth, not income. And please post your source because many of them don't include passive income.

drew_eckhardt says

There are too few "obscenely wealthy" and too many "grunt workers" for the wealthy's share to make a real difference.

You don't need "many" when they are so incredibly wealthy. I'm not sure you grasp how much wealth the 1% really controls or you wouldn't make that statement.

drew_eckhardt says

McDonald's CEO took home $9.5M in 2013 which is a lot compared to a minimum wage worker's earnings; although divided by McDonald's 440,000 employees it's $22 a year. With half-time workers that's at most $0.02 an hour, and a 0.2% raise from the US Federal minimum wage.

Funny you should mention Mr. Thompson-he took a pay cut of 4.5MM last year. And how much did he pay in taxes on that $9.5MM? In any event, do the same analysis using all the top executives and you'll get a different result.

lostand confused says

I really feel sorry for the kids you teach

Another sorry ass excuse for a republican asshole who says he feels sorry for the kids I teach. So, that's the best way you can think to express your hatred for me, and what a low level excuse for a human you are ? Why ? Simply because I have a hard time dealing with this kind of disgusting slippery slope nonsense ?

marcus says

lostand confused says

Hating the 1% has been a major theme in the far left of our country. That is going to spread-from 1% to the 40% is not a stretch.

What ? You didn't think your asshole credentials had been validated yet ? OR you feared that there were still people on this forum that thought you had an IQ over 85 ?

I teach Mathematics. Mathematics is about logic and truth (given certain primitive axioms, and definitions we accept). You want to suggest that I'm not capable of helping students progress with their Math or point them towards interesting insights, just because I"m not an extremist right wing asshole ?

If I make a mistake with my teaching, it could be a simple arithmetic mistake, or an error writing down one thing wrong, but that would show itself quickly. And it's Math. I don't hold on to being wrong with Math. I can't. In fact, when it happens, I have to set an example of being wrong gracefully. It's usually over a silly error. But sometimes over something bigger, like making incorrect assumptions or taking a less than optimal or elegant approach to a problem that students want me to do. I have to admit I'm wrong very quickly when I am. And it happens occasionally, usually over silly sort of syntactical mistakes. But in those situations, I'm only modeling for kids what it is to do Mathematics. Occasionally one is barking up the wrong tree and it's okay to be wrong. That's part of problem solving. As long as one figures that out and finds a correct, or in some cases just nicer approach.

(I"m talking about high level (AP) courses - not Algebra, or Geometry)

In Math, just like in my previous life as a trader in the pits in Chicago, I have to admit when I'm wrong. One can't afford to let their ego attached when they are wrong, because that would just make it worse. Besides, as a matter of pride, I always want students to know that I found a nicer way to show them. OR in the case of trading, there's money on the lines. One can not afford the luxury of allowing their pride or ego attach them to a wrong position.

A more likely mistake I can make, with my teaching, large classes, with compressed pacing plans relative to every thing I am supposed to cover, is that I don't do a good enough job of getting students involved in discovering things, and problem solving practices, and talking to each other, explaining things to each other, because I'm too rushed, driven to keep the pace I have to follow to cover everything. But these are the trials and tribulations of being a teacher.

You assholes who want to say you feel sorry for my students ? That's the ultimate expression of hatred and inhumanity you can throw at me. Sadly you don't understand that. But you understand it well enough to almost know the degree to which it's hitting below the belt. I will assume that you either don't fully comprehend what it's like to have a job that is service to others, or that you do know, and are envious.

Rather than saying any more of what I want to say, I'll just say this. Fuck you. And welcome to ignore. Have fun spouting all your right wing bullshit. I hope your getting paid well by the Koch brothers. Not that that makes you any less of a scumbag.

In my opinion, these would be the two biggest benefits of higher taxes on the rich and corporations. Nobody has explianed to me why this is wrong.

1) With more skin in the game (taxes paid) the powerful, who usually have substantial wealth, have more incentive to fight corruption. In other words if some other rich interest is seeking government largess, they will want to fight it, rather than simply saying "it's cool, as long as I get taken care of too."

When all the rich powerful folks are paying low taxes, they are perfectly happy to see borrow and spend policies that enrich them and their friends.
With higher taxes, the entire model is turned upsde down. It's one of the reasons things worked so well back in 1955 - 198?.

2) The other thing is slightly higher corporate rates, that all corporation actually have to pay, makes spending on pretax items such as employees and research less costly. This actually encourages corporations to invest here in themselves and or other AMerican companies.

I will grant you that I'm not a corporate finance or accounting person, so I might be a little naive about #2, but if so, I have yet to hear a legitimate argument as to why, other than "we can't have higher taxes and compete well with the rest of the world." But I'm only suggesting a small inrease, and that corposations actually pay their taxes.

marcus says

I understand your point about redistribution of all the income of the rich not solving anything, relative to the wealth of the rest of us.

Actually, his point is incorrect. There is plenty of wealth.

marcus says

Another sorry ass excuse for a republican asshole who says he feels sorry for the kids I teach. So, that's the best way you can think to express your hatred for me, and what a low level excuse for a human you are ? Why ? Simply because I have a hard time dealing with this kind of disgusting slippery slope nonsense ?

Dude-are you drunk?? I really feel sorry for your kids. if this is how you handle debate with people who have a different view-with no ability to have a decent conversation without resorting to acting like a 5 yr old girl having a hissy fit.

Sigh what a fool -this kind of attitude can only be brought on by tenure-with no ability to fire, despite performance and a pension to boot. Go on have another hissy fit.

marcus says

Rather than saying any more of what I want to say, I'll just say this. Fuck you. And welcome to ignore. Have fun spouting all your right wing bullshit. I hope your getting paid well by the Koch brothers. Not that that makes you any less of a scumbag

LOL.
marcus says

You assholes who want to say you feel sorry for my students ? That's the ultimate expression of hatred and inhumanity you can throw at me. Sadly you don't understand that. But you understand it well enough to almost know the degree to which it's hitting below the belt. I will assume that you either don't fully comprehend what it's like to have a job that is service to others, or that you do know, and are envious.

Nope, just feel sorry. You seem a little off at times -could just be you are drunk. I do feel sorry for the kids-because if this is how you respond to someone who has a different worldview-kids don't need this. Their views are being shaped by the people around them. Last thing they need is a bullying fool who explodes when anyone expresses a different view.

Good, judging by the number of people you have an ignore-you need that to stop going off the rails. Hint, if you carry on a decent conversation, most people will not throw things back at you and will try and remain decent. if you throw crap at people, people will respond in kind. Just because you slink off into a corner with a pouty puff-doesn't mean the same cycle will not repeat with another person. Which is why I feel sorry for the kids-this is an online forums, where you can retreat and act the fool. But a kid in your class, with a different worldview is stuck with you and you control his grades/punishment etc etc-that poor, poor kid... I hope you don't act this way IRL-but people are not that different.

Obama never saw a tax increase that he didn't like.

I'm with Patrick and his land tax idea. Make a land tax for funding the government and make it impossible to avoid. This will screw the mass land owners/parasites who hog the real estate for purposes of charging a buttload for rent, and keeping property values high. They have something like this in Texas, and that state is a model for home ownership at reasonable prices.