patrick.net

YesYNot says

If it is a white Christian, it is labelled as a mental health problem.

Not so, the are Beltway Shooters NOT listed as a terror act in the FBI Database, I strongly disagree with that.

Ironman says

Does that sound like he was "lonely"??

He was married, no?

And he just came back from Saudi Barbaria.

The new American Dream: eat lead, infidels!

He was lonely. Now, that's funny. We've learned from certain site members that there are all kinds of ways to keep from being lonely. You have pornographic tea parties with one's blow-up dolls... And there are always hookers.... endless hookers.

Keep looking for excuses, ignoring the fact that his religion requires the very behavior we saw yesterday. As a devout follower, he ensured his place with Allah.

Personally, I don't think much of religious zealots, in general. However, Christians do NOT have large scale groups telling them that their ticket to Heaven is murder. So, you keep trying to liken Islam to Christianity, but it just isn't the same.

turtledove says

Personally, I don't think much of religious zealots, in general. However, Christians do NOT have large scale groups telling them that their ticket to Heaven is murder. So, you keep trying to liken Islam to Christianity, but it just isn't the same.

True. Christians believe suicide isn't a path to heaven. Christian terrorists typically try and stay alive to continue "gods work".

By the above, I mean to imply whether or not a form a religious terrorism uses suicide tactics, is not a significant differentiating characteristic.

Edit: Hahaha. I do not know why I keyed of of suicided here instead of murder. Let me try again ...

http://thechristians.com/?q=node/1160

Your statement is arguably correct for the US. No "large scale group" preaching murder. I agree. I don;t think that is true for the rest of the world though, as above is just one current case.

As long as we continue to look at what makes us "unique", "just", or "different", and not unified as a people against violence ... we will continue to play into the terrorists hands in using religion as a motivator for murder and extreme acts.

Historically, also, Christianity did have large scale groups preaching murder in gods name ...
http://markhumphrys.com/christianity.killings.html

Even the disgruntled postman never got down like this, that notion is patently ridiculous. Interestingly, alot of people(?) on social media said it was a white male before news was even fit to print/stream.

Do terrorists consider a Health and Public Services building a high profile target? Doubtful. So without more evidence the most logical conclusion to me seems to be either a sustained state of mental disturbance, along the lines of the also well prepared Columbine Killers(who were on or had recently gone off prescription meds). Or a false flag/government plant in order to beat down the resistance to completely disarming the public. It's happened before...

Rew says

True. Christians believe suicide isn't a path to heaven. Christian terrorists typically try and stay alive to continue "gods work".

By the above, I mean to imply whether or not a form a religious terrorism uses suicide tactics, is not a significant differentiating characteristic.

Where in Christianity is it taught that murder is one's ticket to heaven? You want to hold up a few nut jobs and claim that that's Christianity. Show me the book, chapter, and verse where Jesus tells everyone that their duty is to murder people?

What you fail to grasp is that it IS taught, on a large scale, to Muslims that murder is a ticket to heaven. Their greatest prophet even said so.

Literally in the Koran, Jihad is permanent, there can never be peace with Infidels - only temporary cease-fires, the end of the world/paradise on earth can't happen until total conversion of everyone to Islam, and those who die on Jihad are guaranteed the highest of Paradises with ever-virgin Houris to serve them*.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/san-bernardino-shooting/san-bernardino-shooting-suspects-left-baby-daughter-grandma-n473261

"There was obviously a mission here," Bowdich said. "We do not know why. We do not know if this was the intended target or something triggered him."

But authorities told NBC News on Thursday that Farook appeared to have been radicalized. They said he had been in touch with people in the Los Angeles area who have expressed jihadist-oriented views.

Intelligence sources told NBC News that Farook appeared to have been in some form of communication with overseas individuals who are persons of interest to American authorities.

turtledove says

He was lonely. Now, that's funny. ...

Keep looking for excuses, ignoring the fact that his religion requires the very behavior we saw yesterday. As a devout follower, he ensured his place with Allah.

Increasing loneliness in our society (if it is really happening) might be an explanation for the increased amount of multiple victim shootings. It's not an excuse for terrorism. Stop assuming ridiculous arguments, and focus on what was actually said.

YesYNot says

There has been a tremendous amount of multi-person shootings lately in the US, and loneliness may be a common thread in many of these cases.

thunderlips11 says

Koran, Jihad is permanent, there can never be peace with Infidels

The Koran is as silly as Christianity, so I'm not stating that there is any truth to it. On the other hand, one interpretation is that Jihad is permanent so long as other people are attacking Islam. Since a cartoon is considered an attack, it's hard not to be 'attacking them.' But if we all take strategist's attitude and 'go to war against Islam,' it will be an "Us vs them" religious war. The poor atheist have to sit around watching people kill each other over their imaginary gods. Unfortunately, the atheists get killed too.

YesYNot says

If the attacker is from the Middle East or Africa, it is labeled a terrorist attack. If it is a white Christian, it is labelled as a mental health problem.

That's total BS that seeks to reduce any objective view of this death cult to an act of bigotry.

As soon as someone mentions the fact that textual Islam encourages murder under many conditions, a lot of liberals quickly look away and start self flagellating.

This has to stop. Yes we have issues of our own, but no, this has nothing to do with us.

It is both, the fact that someone allows themselves to be radicalized reflects weakness of character and mental illness.

dublin hillz says

It is both, the fact that someone allows themselves to be radicalized reflects weakness of character and mental illness.

Radicals don't consider their beliefs to be radical. They think they've found capital-T Truth and believe strongly in it. They are called radicals only by people who hold different beliefs.

dublin hillz says

It is both, the fact that someone allows themselves to be radicalized reflects weakness of character and mental illness.

That's ignorance of the problem.
For example most people think advertisement has no effect on them. But studies show it has a massive effect.
We want to think we are rational, but we have huge biases in the way we think that can be and are exploited.
Every human is highly vulnerable to propaganda techniques.

Western leaders probably think a strong army protects the west and this is all that matters.
But armies are unlikely to protect us from ideas.
Our leaders are under-estimating the virulence of these memes.

Heraclitusstudent says

As soon as someone mentions the fact that textual Islam encourages murder under many conditions, a lot of liberals quickly look away and start self flagellating.

This has to stop.

Pretty sure that the liberal line is the same as what George W stated. That is, that the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, and don't want a holy war. That the terrorists are perverting and hijacking Islam. Calling out Islam as an evil cult is playing into the terrorists plan. They get their wet dream ending of the holy war.

turtledove says

Where in Christianity is it taught that murder is one's ticket to heaven? You want to hold up a few nut jobs and claim that that's Christianity. Show me the book, chapter, and verse where Jesus tells everyone that their duty is to murder people?

What you fail to grasp is that it IS taught, on a large scale, to Muslims that murder is a ticket to heaven. Their greatest prophet even said so.

https://carm.org/sites/default/files/kjv/Deut/Deut_17.htm
Section 5. Looks like anyone studying the Kings James is being taught on a wide scale to murder all christian non-believers in the name of god! (wink)

Your claim that there is no wide scale Christian faiths teaching murder toward salvation right now. This is only true of today.
"Onward Christian solider. God is with us. God will be my shield." Sound familiar? That stuff is as old as the crusades and still persists today. Just back 15 generations or so, Christianity was one of the most violent religions on the planet.

The greatest Islamic prophet didn't preach this either. Just as above, Jesus didn't either. It's only later, after a religion matures more does it start to go down paths less egalatartian and more violent.

http://www.muhammadfactcheck.org

Murder and terrorism are not uniquely Islamic. Islam isn't the enemy.

Speech like this though leads to major backlash killings, domestic religious violence, and that tips dangerously toward all out religious wars. IS welcomes the day.

YesYNot says

Pretty sure that the liberal line is the same as what George W stated. That is, that the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, and don't want a holy war. That the terrorists are perverting and hijacking Islam. Calling out Islam as an evil cult is playing into the terrorists plan. They get their wet dream ending of the holy war.

There is a fine line here:
- Sure the majority of Muslims are not terrorists.
- Sure we have to make sure moderate muslims can seek a spiritual path that has nothing to do with above problems.
- Sure we have to make sure to not antagonize them.
- But no we should not accept all of Islam ideas because these ideas are clearly evil and have no place in the US or the west. (stoning, mutilations, killing people depending on their beliefs, unequal men-women rules, etc....)

We cannot leave a huge space to these ideas and the teaching of these ideas and then complain about the suffering that is a direct consequence of that.
Moderate Muslims MUST be persuaded to throw away these and do so officially.

Rew says

Murder and terrorism are not uniquely Islamic.

As noted elsewhere on PatNet, Islam combines the holy violence of early Judaism (you quoted Deuteronomy, from the OT) with the global missionary proseletyzing of late Christianity. That makes Islam worse than either of the other Abrahamic faiths. The OT Jews fought for what they called their "holy land," or "promised land," which some of their descendants continue to fight for today, but they don't try to convert the whole world. Also, even if you are born into one of the tribes of Israel, or a Christian family, you are free to leave the religion; they don't kill apostates, as Muslim countries tend to do. Also, neither Christian countries nor Muslim countries kill people for making fun of their religion (Muslim countries tend to do that too). Islamic murder and terrorism have express doctrinal endorsement in texts that all believers claim to believe, and global reach.

Rew says

greatest Islamic prophet

A contradiction in terms. Show me the Muslim version of George Carlin, and if he makes millions in a Muslim country making fun of Islam, then you'll have shown me something worth seeing. Otherwise, it's a fundamentally intolerant doctrine as can be seen in all the countries where it has been allowed to take power; "moderate" behavior in other countries is basically taqiya.

Rew says

Just back 15 generations or so, Christianity was one of the most violent religions on the planet.

Actually you'd have to go back further, but even if we accept your calendar, then your argument would apply 15 generations from now, not today.

Heraclitusstudent says

- Sure the majority of Muslims are not terrorists.

- Sure we have to make sure moderate muslims can seek a spiritual path that has nothing to do with above problems.

- Sure we have to make sure to not antagonize them.

- But no we should not accept all of Islam ideas because these ideas are clearly evil and have no place in the US or the west.

Good, then you, me, GW, and the rest of the liberals are in agreement.Heraclitusstudent says

We cannot leave a huge space to these ideas and the teaching of these ideas and then complain about the suffering that is a direct consequence of that.

Moderate Muslims MUST be persuaded to throw away these and do so officially.

Do you suggest policing what is said inside of Mosques? Are moderate (most) mosques in the US advocating stoning? Do you want to control what foreign countries use as punishment for crime? Should European countries make the US stop using the death penalty?

Rew says

"Onward Christian solider. God is with us. God will be my shield." Sound familiar? That stuff is as old as the crusades and still persists today. Just back 15 generations or so, Christianity was one of the most violent religions on the planet.

This is irrelevant because it's not gospel, it's wildly discredited and no one believes it now.
By opposition a majority of Muslims worldwide believes that shariah law should be applied. Including killing apostates, polytheists, or adulterers for example.
If you don't recognize that there is a problem unique to Islam now, I don't know what will convince you. A yellow mushroom?

Letting people teach that kind of beliefs is clearly first intellectual dishonesty, second it is moral cowardice.

YesYNot says

Do you suggest policing what is said inside of Mosques? Are moderate (most) mosques in the US advocating stoning? Do you want to control what foreign countries use as punishment for crime? Should European countries make the US stop using the death penalty?

Yes.
No, but they revere texts that call for stoning and they should be made to officially declare that they do not believe in this.
No, but countries punishing beliefs by death should be called out as evil.
If the US was applying death penalty for beliefs and adultery then yes Europe should at a minimum call out these practices as evil and distance itself from such an evil government

Obama has famously declared climate change to be the most serious security concern of the United States.
Sayed Farook was an Environmental Health Specialist making $51k/year employed by the county of San Bernadino.
Coincidence? Or should we believe Obama and start to fear climate scientists lest they engage in mass slaughter?

YesYNot says

Do you suggest policing what is said inside of Mosques?

Yes, domestically through infiltrators. Internationally, through collaborators and puppets.

YesYNot says

Are moderate (most) mosques in the US advocating stoning?

Don't think so, but they must be monitored nonetheless so that a radicalizer imam does not seize the platform "unexpectedly."

YesYNot says

Do you want to control what foreign countries use as punishment for crime?

Idealistically yes, but it is obviously impractical and un-enforceable. However, preventing radicals from getting to positions of power may eventually translate into death penalty for violation of moral codes to fall off the books.

YesYNot says

Should European countries make the US stop using the death penalty?

The can't due to national sovereignty but if they feel strongly against it, they have every right to criticize it in their press and in political speeches. We won't throw eggs at their embassy like you know who... or attack their newspaper offices like you know who...

Rew says

Section 5. Looks like anyone studying the Kings James is being taught on a wide scale to murder all christian non-believers in the name of god! (wink)

So, pointing to Jewish law to justify your argument? Now take a look at the New Testament. Do you know the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

http://news.yahoo.com/muslim-americans-fear-demonization-islam-mass-shooting-203253127.html

If liberals don't go further in condemning extreme ideas, other, less discerning people, will go further in associating any Muslims with these acts.
The wedge is there. The only question is where it cuts.

NuttBoxer says

Do terrorists consider a Health and Public Services building a high profile target? Doubtful.

I think it's likely entree of disgruntled nutjob, with a side of radical terrrorism.

Like the Oklahoma beheading last year. Sure the guy spouted a bunch of religious crap, but he was also being fired from his job at the food processing plant. Coworkers were killed, not random citizens.

So Mr. Numbskull is all wrapped up in his minor work complaints. Maybe someone says MERRRY CHRISTMAS HERE'S SOME BACON HAR HAR or whatever and that fiinally pushes him over the edge. So he and Princess of Arabia get dolled up and hose down the room.

If he were a pure terrorist, he'd have posted the Princess at the entrance to Walmart to prevent escape, and gone hunting for shoppers trapped inside. Or opened up on the line of people waiting for Santa at the mall. His choice of target is way personal.

Heraclitusstudent says

If liberals don't go further in condemning extreme ideas, other, less discerning people, will go further in associating any Muslims with these acts.

Yes, the problem is because enough people aren't saying: "Gosh, murders are bad!" as opposed to the fact that people are immediately claiming, "I know the motive, it is "X" and it is all Islam's fault!". The president has publicly cheered for these acts every chance he could ... ohhh ... no wait ... he simply has said: "The motives are unclear." Heck, even the FBI is saying this doesn't fit a typical pattern for terrorism and they are investigating.

turtledove says

So, pointing to Jewish law to justify your argument? Now take a look at the New Testament. Do you know the difference between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

You don't get to exclude the Kings James as a primary Christian doctrine. Many Christian faiths/denominations use it exclusively or as the primary source.

The New Testament contains many passages, specifically about End Times, which are used as justifications to commit murder and other Christian based terrorist acts. That is correct though, it doesn't specifically contain a passage saying: "go kill people".

Heraclitusstudent says

This is irrelevant because it's not gospel, it's wildly discredited and no one believes it now.

By opposition a majority of Muslims worldwide believes that shariah law should be applied.

I'd like these two things proven with sources please. My personal experience is counter on both points.

http://www.arabnews.com/news/450061

The Arab world is split on interpretation of Sharia, and the majority of Islam is not pro violence as a means to an end. I'm sure you can find other sources for the above.

Take a look at how they want Sharia applied:
http://www.pewforum.org/2013/04/30/the-worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-beliefs-about-sharia/

It doesn't take a scientist to see this was muslim extremism. Couple of radicals in coordinated attack assault, this is an act of terrorism all right. And once more Syrians get here, we'll get this more frequently.

Your own document shows that a large percent of Muslims want the sharia law. Especially outside Europe and ex-soviet countries. Remember these rules are extreme, medieval and brutal. That most Muslims in Africa/Arab countries/south central Asia/south east Asia think they should be applied is disconcerting to say the least. That even 12% in Turkey, a Nato country asking admission in EU, think they should is shocking.
We need to be intellectually honest here: the central doctrine of Islam is Jihad, paradise will not come on earth until the entire world is conquered and this conquest is a central tenet. It is the highest achievement for Muslim men to die in defense of the faith. This is what we are talking about.

Rew says

Yes, the problem is because enough people aren't saying: "Gosh, murders are bad!" as opposed to the fact that people are immediately claiming, "I know the motive, it is "X" and it is all Islam's fault!". The president has publicly cheered for these acts every chance he could ... ohhh ... no wait ... he simply has said: "The motives are unclear." Heck, even the FBI is saying this doesn't fit a typical pattern for terrorism and they are investigating.

I wasn't specifically talking about San Bernadino where motives may be unclear.
I was talking of murders at the cry of Allah Akbar and there are enough of those.

FortWayne says

And once more Syrians get here, we'll get this more frequently.

How many freedoms are you willing to trade away for the minute chance that Islamic terrorism harms US citizens?

Edit: Is it as much or more, than the loss of freedoms and greater regulation you are willing to undergo to safe guard against terrorism of domestic non-Islamic idealogical origination?

Heraclitusstudent says

Your own document shows that a large percent of Muslims want the sharia law.

It also shows that most want it ONLY applied to those of Muslim faith.
IT also shows there are many different interpretations.

Heraclitusstudent says

I was talking of murders at the cry of Allah Akbar and there are enough of those.

Really? Where are all those murders with "Allah Akbar" cries?

Vicente says

Instead of Afghanistan and Iraq, we should have invaded Saudi Arabia.

And for Boston bombing we should have invaded Russia. I like your logic!

Rew says

You don't get to exclude the Kings James as a primary Christian doctrine. Many Christian faiths/denominations use it exclusively or as the primary source.

I'm not excluding the King James Bible. Where did I say that?

You are looking to the Torah (Deuteronomy is part of the Torah, which is the first five books of the bible) and claiming that it proves that Christians are ordered to kill people. I simply pointed out that it is the Old Testament that you are looking at. The Old Testament is not unique to the King James version of the bible, btw. But you need to know that it isn't the Old Testament that makes it a Christian Bible. It's the New Testament that makes a bible -- a Christian bible. In the Christian section of the bible (remember the New Testament didn't exist until after Jesus, and the belief that Jesus is Christ is what defines a Christian),

Rew says

it doesn't specifically contain a passage saying: "go kill people".

If you live your life by the bible, but NOT by the New Testament... that's called a Jew. That is not a Christian. A Christian lives their lives by the New Testament.

Now I need to stop talking about this. It's bringing about flashbacks from my childhood. A decade and a half of religious education wasted on a heretic.

turtledove says

If you live your life by the bible, but NOT by the New Testament... that's called a Jew. That is not a Christian. A Christian lives their lives by the New Testament.

I think your definition of what makes a Jew or a Christian is not shared by most, and this being in Deuteronomy firmly includes it in huge numbers of published Christian bibles.
http://christianity.wikia.com/wiki/Deuteronomy

Do you prefer book of Luke then:
Luke 19:27 "But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay [them] before me."

YesYNot says

The Koran is as silly as Christianity, so I'm not stating that there is any truth to it. On the other hand, one interpretation is that Jihad is permanent so long as other people are attacking Islam. Since a cartoon is considered an attack, it's hard not to be 'attacking them.' But if we all take strategist's attitude and 'go to war against Islam,' it will be an "Us vs them" religious war. The poor atheist have to sit around watching people kill each other over their imaginary gods. Unfortunately, the atheists get killed too.

Jihad is not "Defensive", which is a dishonest argument apologists to fool Kaffirs. When Mohammed himself, who was an absolutely aggressive and violent conquerer led his armies from Mecca and Medina throughout Arabia as far as the Coast of the Med and into Iraq. The generation or two immediately following him killed off the Persians and came within a hair's breadth of conquering the entire Byzantine Empire, besieging Constantinople.

Jihad was waged from the South of France to the Gates of Vienna to the Forests around Moscow to the Jungles of Burma.

Islam did not spread from cities near the Red Sea to stretch from the Volga to Volta, from Mumbai to Madrid, by waging a peaceful defense, nor by Preaching.

Indeed, while Jamestown was just being founded in America, the Ottoman Islamic Empire was on the verge of conquering Austria; it had already conquered a quarter of Europe.

Rew says

https://carm.org/sites/default/files/kjv/Deut/Deut_17.htm

Section 5. Looks like anyone studying the Kings James is being taught on a wide scale to murder all christian non-believers in the name of god! (wink)

When was the last time somebody was stoned in Israel? Or among Hassids in Brooklyn?

Even the Puritans did not Stone Adulterers!

We're talking about Islam today, not what Hebrews may or may not have actually done before Caesar or Alexander lived.