patrick.net

All of yous should read this article. Full of statistical Facts. I learnt something by reading it.

The cops are getting a bad rap.

http://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/the-danger-of-the-black-lives-matter-movement/

FortWayne says

indigenous says

And who decides what is a crime?

The winner of the shoot out.

Sums up conservative philosophy perfectly.

Ironman says

ndigenous says

The cops are getting a bad rap.

Of course they are.

Factor in that there are close to 1 MILLION law enforcement officers in the country. How often do questionable shoots come up?

It's easy to be a Monday morning quarterback sitting behind your keyboard when you're not directly facing an unknown enemy and have to make a split second decision.

Not every split second decision will be the right one. Expecting the cops to be right every single time is rather silly. Even if a cop erroneously shoots a known criminal, that cop is a hero in my eyes for getting a thug off the streets.

Strategist says

Not every split second decision will be the right one. Expecting the cops to be right every single time is rather silly. Even if a cop erroneously shoots a known criminal, that cop is a hero in my eyes for getting a thug off the streets.

That is not the point. I learnt something by reading the article..

FortWayne says

The winner of the shoot out.

As much as I hate to agree with Dan, he is right on this.

The French....

When I was in Paris back in 2005, I was shocked to see their airport security. They had army looking guys with giant guns everywhere. This was post-9/11, so we had already had the TSA here in the US. Our TSA was nothing compared to the Gestapo feeling you had at CDG airport. Then, when I was boarding the plane, they were pulling people out of line and searching them right then and there. Dan would have had a stroke.

My point is, you can pull a single incident and say, "the US is bad and other places are good," but a single example doesn't exactly typify a country's entire security strategy. I think most of you would have found Parisian airport security methods a tad over the top.

I think our police are more acutely afraid of losing their lives everyday, and we (government) have put them on an anti-terrorist combat footing. As soon as I saw MP5s strapped to the back of sheriff motorcycles in Silicon Valley, I knew a monumental shift had swept the nation.

Our police aren't used to handling that culture of protest. New Orleans seems to have it figured out though, for dealing with all the mardi gras crowd. Now that's not a protest, but that's mob/crowd management practiced to a good level.

Strategist says

a known criminal, that cop is a hero in my eyes for getting a thug off the streets.

Wow. Care to define criminal more or does just any criminal deserve to die? (I'm beginning to think there is something to this whole "Authoritarian" theory.)

turtledove says

When I was in Paris back in 2005, I was shocked to see their airport security. They had army looking guys with giant guns everywhere.

turtledove says

My point is, you can pull a single incident and say, "the US is bad and other places are good," but a single example doesn't exactly typify a country's entire security strategy. I think most of you would have found Parisian airport security methods a tad over the top.

Europe has always practiced strong show of force at Airports more than the US. I flew into something relatively small in Italy many years ago, don't even remember the airport, but it was defended by anti-air emplacements you could distinctly see on approach (height of Yugoslavia at the time, I think). We were greeted at the bottom of the ramp by a German Shepard drug sniff dog and two handlers with full auto combat rifles.

When I lived in the UK, I typically didn't see firearms around, but wow when I did, it was like something right out of a movie. Huge show of force and stuff I had only ever seen in the military before, on cops. Our police have steadily become armed in a similar fashion over the years. There is an AR-15 in just about every car I see these days, unless they have the shotgun. Uncommon to see, but on heightened alert times I've seen Nat Guard walking around our airports.

Africa, was a totally different story. I didn't see a single firearm inside or around the airport buildings. But the roads leading up to the airport, major defensive roadblocks (huge steel sharpened spikes to channel cars), and guys that seriously looked like they were right off the set of a Rambo movie (chain fed bullets draped over them, berets, sleeveless shirts, M60 emplacements, and god knows what other machine guns those where). They had an actual permitter and safety within, but probably also the highest consistent actual threat too. My hotel had some good security too.

Police abuse certainly isn't unique to the US, nor is it recent. To see it's genesis you need to look at what the War on Us did to the beat cop when he stopped talking to the neighborhood, and started focusing on arbitrary stats.

One line I do see repeated often by cops today is they shot because they felt threatened. This justification of their life over a citizens is used in cases where there was no threat, or they could have chosen to subdue the subject with minimal risk. The shift from protect and serve to bully and abuse has been going on for some time, but it has never been more pronounced than it is today.

turtledove says

My point is, you can pull a single incident and say, "the US is bad and other places are good," but a single example doesn't exactly typify a country's entire security strategy. I think most of you would have found Parisian airport security methods a tad over the top.

When I arrive in SF to go through custom there is a huge room with well organized counters and lines. They systematically record everyone, take addresses, pictures and prints for foreigners.

In CDG there is no room, the line goes in the middle of the corridor. There is 1 or 2 bored custom officers that vaguely look at your passport and wave to come in.

there is a strong show of visible force but less organized security apparatus behind it.

Blurtman says

around the 4 minute mark where one guy uses a big piece of metal to puncture the window of a cop car then another guy throws in what appears to be a burning road flare or maybe a molotov cocktail. The cop calmly gets out and is confronted by another guy who tries to beat him with a big stick.

The problem here is not that police is calm and in control. The problem is the police is not in control, people can attack police cars and burn them with total impunity.
In France, cars are burned on a regular basis with no consequences. There are areas where police doesn't go unless they are 40, stones are thrown at them. There are regular rampages where bands destroy everything on their path (burn cars and break windows), and police runs the other way.

This is not a desirable alternative. Especially not in the long term.

turtledove says

When I was in Paris back in 2005, I was shocked to see their airport security.

I was embarased for America when I came back from my first trip abroad post 9-11.

In Asia they have plenty of people in very visible locations throughout the airports. But not a single one of them in your way, but you can't help to see them.
And if you approach them they even greet you with a smile rather than placing their hands on their guns, or barking orders at you they have no real authority to make, other than the unwritten rule that says there is no rules with the TSA. Also every single person in the screening process were beneficial to the process and helped speed things along. None of them were there to provoke and taunt you, that the American airports give you.

IN Miami when I was leaving, and going through screening. A huge 7 foot tall Lurch looking idiot, must have been 285lbs at least. Was standing right in the middle of the Metal detector barking out orders, trying to intimidate everyone into submission to what lies ahead. That was just unecessary. If I were a terrorist, he would have been the first person that I shot, along with all of the other security idiots in that same general location.
This is all purley speculation and devils advocate here, what if I were a terrorist?
In Asia the armed gaurds are out of the way, and spread out. I would have been cut down before I could have shot the first person. In Miami I would have immediate access to every armed person in that vicinity at the time. If I were a crack shot I would have mowed down all three of them before they even knew what hit them. They are just fruit salad in the way, they provide no security what so ever.

In Asia and other airports abroad, the security out of the way are more military looking and have their automatic weapons in their hands. So they are all ready for anything.

The American mall cop airport security assholes, probably have smart guns and forgot to charge the battery last night. I didn't feel safe at all just anoyed very anoyed, I don't know if you can tell or not. LOL

Tenpoundbass says

I shot, along with all of the other security idiots in that same general location.

This is all purley speculation and devils advocate here, what if I were a terrorist?

If that happened the rest of us on Patnet would become terrorist supporters. No one likes the TSA guys.

turtledove says

When I was in Paris back in 2005, I was shocked to see their airport security.

I think Israel's El Al Airlines is comparably strict. Something must have been dialed back in Paris since 2005.

indigenous says

As much as I hate to agree with Dan, he is right on this.

Dan is still wrong. Now that is just my opinion, but I think that boy drinks way too much left wing coolaid to understand anything.

Rew says

Strategist says

a known criminal, that cop is a hero in my eyes for getting a thug off the streets.

Wow. Care to define criminal more or does just any criminal deserve to die?

Someone like OJ who got away with murder. Rapists and child molesters. We can certainly do without them.

FortWayne says

Dan is still wrong. Now that is just my opinion, but I think that boy drinks way too much left wing coolaid to understand anything.

Not on this, government by definition uses force. That by definition is using coercion instead of reason, that is unacceptable

indigenous says

FortWayne says

Dan is still wrong. Now that is just my opinion, but I think that boy drinks way too much left wing coolaid to understand anything.

Not on this, government by definition uses force. That by definition is using coercion instead of reason, that is unacceptable

There are times when force is necessary. There are some people you cannot reason with.

Strategist says

There are times when force is necessary. There are some people you cannot reason with.

The original question I had was who decides what is a crime.At this time we have the government deciding what bathroom an individual uses, how much they are enslaved through taxes, how they can insure themselves for health, the minutiae of how they run there business, when they can defend themselves against the enemy, how they can travel, what their children will be taught, what drugs they will take both recreationaly and for health, what they will hear on the air waves through radio or television, not to mention the endless regulations regarding how you use your property, conduct your business, or conduct yourself, or go to war with.

What exactly are they supposed to be reasonable about?

indigenous says

Strategist says

There are times when force is necessary. There are some people you cannot reason with.

The original question I had was who decides what is a crime

In this context the question is......who is the threat? If you obey the cop, he is not a threat to your life. If your intent is to hurt the cop with a gun, you are the threat.

Strategist says

In this context

And look at the context and the trend of the past few decades...

Strategist says

Rapists and child molesters. We can certainly do without them.

I'm not sure that firt category even exists.

Hasn't rape been debunked?

NuttBoxer says

One line I do see repeated often by cops today is they shot because they felt threatened. This justification of their life over a citizens is used in cases where there was no threat, or they could have chosen to subdue the subject with minimal risk. The shift from protect and serve to bully and abuse has been going on for some time, but it has never been more pronounced than it is today.

The problem is police forces are becoming more military. Police are supposed to be basically social workers dealing with drunks and dysfunctional families most of the time, not special ops teams. Swat teams, military trainers, military equipment, military tactics, etc. are the norm now. I worked in a really tough jersey shore summer resort in the late 60's and early 70's. I knew most of the cops and saw lots of arrests. The cops didn't pull out their guns first thing, they waded in, arrested people and sometimes clunked a few heads together. If you watch old versions of cops from the late 80's the police were a lot less aggressive and less likely to confront people with guns. Starting in the 90's the military style of policing really took off. It's a lot more exciting and fun to be rambo than sheriff taylor mayberry rfd. Now the first thing that happens in far too many situations is guns come out first before it is even clear what is going on. Many states require a swat team for all felony arrests. A lot of these arrests used to be handled with a cop walking up and knocking on the door. It's hard to justify the increased aggression levels. It was much more dangerous to be a cop in the 70's than today. Yet another disastrous legacy of the war on drugs.

bob2356 says

The problem is police forces are becoming more military. Police are supposed to be basically social workers dealing with drunks and dysfunctional families most of the time, not special ops teams.

How else are the cops gonna deal with potential riots burning down large parts of a city? We had that happen in Ferguson and Los Angeles. Pussy cat cops are no match for hordes of rioters bent on destruction. A display of overwhelming force is the best deterrent we have.

bob2356 says

It was much more dangerous to be a cop in the 70's than today.

Excellent opining.

There are some facts in the article, but you want what you said to be true so it must be true...

The cop do seem to be more militaristic but the facts in the article don't bear that out.

But in general with continuing growth in government there will be more unrest from inequality, e.g. the false economy caused by the huge increase in the Fed balance sheet.

indigenous says

Excellent opining.

There are some facts in the article, but you want what you said to be true so it must be true...

Too lazy and/or stupid to type cop deaths per year into google? Here http://www.nleomf.org/facts/officer-fatalities-data/year.html.

The cop deaths per year today are almost half of the 1970's and there are a lot more cops today. Which means the rate of deaths, yes I know you can't understand rate, is much lower. You very are confused, I can always come up with hard numbers to support for what I say, you are the one who can never come up with anything to support what you say, except some fact free opinion piece from mises.org.

Strategist says

A display of overwhelming force is the best deterrent we have.

Good idea, can we send them all to your town? A better idea would be to use the national guard, who have the military equipment and training already for dealing with riots, then use the police for police work. What a concept.

bob2356 says

The cop deaths per year today are almost half of the 1970's and there are a lot more cops today. Which means the rate of deaths, yes I know you can't understand rate, is much lower. You very are confused, I can always come up with hard numbers to support for what I say, you are the one who can never come up with anything to support what you say, except some fact free opinion piece from mises.org.

Which is not my point, BTW your link is broken.

The point is read the article. In it they point out that the cops had a very workable policy in Compstat which was abandoned because of the back lives matter bullshit.

Good thread.

I was wondering why this particular category of white men was not responsible for their actions.

HydroCabron says

I was wondering

I doubt it

jazz music says

Isn't that what happens because we allow it to happen by staying uninvolved in government?

jazz music says

Notice that none of those preoccupations you mention affects the rate of wealth extraction from our society? --or into who's coffers that wealth insanely enriches

That has to do with this:

jazz music says

Horrific that you would post that particularly daft meme claiming control of our government not mattering.

So you are extolling the virtues of government?

Which part? The wars, the taxation, the regulation, the education, the laws?

jazz music says

A hard rain is surely going to fall on us cowards.

Splain your self?

Strategist says

How else are the cops gonna deal with potential riots burning down large parts of a city

Did you ever notice that when the police force is successful in quelling a riot the response from the rioters is "the police over-reacted".

P N Dr Lo R says

Strategist says

How else are the cops gonna deal with potential riots burning down large parts of a city

Did you ever notice that when the police force is successful in quelling a riot the response from the rioters is "the police over-reacted".

And when they don't succeed in quelling a riot, it's the cops fault like it was when LA was burning down.

jazz music says

A hard rain is surely going to fall on us cowards.

Oh God, Shakespeare is calling for overthrowing the government. Hey, you can do it peacefully in November, you know.

indigenous says

Splain your self?

He means a Hail Storm.

jazz music says

Oh you will extol government too once it is completely dismantled and split up like the proceeds of a heist between robbers of the donor class.

When you find your life rudely shortened and even rendered to your lords over mundane life necessities like food and health. When you abandoned those poor, unfortunate and needy you will realized that really abandoned yourself because you aren't really like one of the elites after all are you? You'll probably see this while the whip-crackers and enforcers are coming at you and yours with new fervor and even glee.

Beautiful, Shakespeare, beautiful. Perfect for a documentary on Venezuela.

jazz music says

Sorry to have to break this to you. You are not like the elites, you and yours will be crushed along with the rest. That is what tinkles down my friend.

That was very aesthetic or maybe anesthetic?

BTW not so honest Abe got 800,000 Americans killed with his Hamiltonian ideals, and practiced front running to line his own pocket at the taxpayers expense.

This is still accurate:

Ironman says

There's a reason the cops are stocking up on all this military hardware. If Bob would come out of the barn once a while to see what's really going on in the country, it would be very aware to him.

Yes there is a reason cops are stocking up, because the military is giving it away free. Feel free to tell us what's really going on in the country. That will be a joke coming from someone who can't figure out what is really going on in ocean county. I'll wait for you to answer, as in waiting forever as always.

jazz music says

Strategist says

Shakespeare is calling for overthrowing the government

Explain.

You explain. Exactly how do you propose to make changes that benefits society as a whole?

jazz music says

Strategist says

You explain. Exactly how do you propose to make changes that benefits society as a whole?

Lots of ways.

Go ahead I'm listening.

jazz music says

You proposed revolution.

Hell no. Democracies don't need revolutions. We can peacefully change our government every 2years.